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I'm confused by your response. The entire point is that the question addressing ramming wins over any conflict with the question covering tank shock. The first question says that the death rolla inflicts 2D6 hits during a stopped tank shock, and the ramming question says, colloquially, "It inflicts D6 S10 hits, period." The situation is like someone claiming that a certain weapon is both S5 and S7 at the same time. How can you contend that one statement saying that 2D6 hits inflicted and another statement saying that 1D6 hits are inflicted aren't in direct conflict?

The reason why the 1D6 wins out over the 2D6 is when ramming vehicles, the ram rules take precedence over the tank shock rules. As I've said before, if the ram rules didn't take precedence, then ramming actions would not take place due to tank shocks stopping prematurely before contacting vehicle units.

In order for the 2D6 hits to take precedence, the tank shock rules would somehow have to take precedence over the ramming rules, and that simply is not the case.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

and Walkers are only hit on the rear when they choos to DoG and fail to stop the vehicle. So a Dread that DOGs takes 2d6 hits at all times to the rear if it fails to stop the battlewagon(or other forgeworld orky vehicle with a deffrolla)

As an aside, I'm curious where the "hit on the rear" bit comes from....................

*Ramming a Walker, Pg 73 BRB "when a wlaker is rammed by a tank it can choose to either brace itslef for the impact in which case the collision is resolved as normal, or it can attempt a 'Death or Glory" attack in the same way as infantry(it cannot do this however, if it is rammed in the rear arc)

If it chooses to death or glory and its attack fails to stop the opposing tank, it will not be ready for the collision and is hit on its rear armor in the collision.

Ork Codex, Battlewagons, Deff Rolla Pg 55

"... if the unit elects to make a 'Death or Glory' attack it suffers an additional d6 s10 hits" this is the only bit that i think applies 2d10 s 10 hits to a vehicle.

edit: stoned...

Uh huh. But the Deffrolla hits are not part of the Ram. Only the Ram hit would go against rear armor, the DR hits (which occur separately, after the Ram, have no stipulation saying they go to the back. All it (the DoG) does is increase the number of hits from the DR.

solkan wrote:I'm confused by your response. The entire point is that the question addressing ramming wins over any conflict with the question covering tank shock. The first question says that the death rolla inflicts 2D6 hits during a stopped tank shock, and the ramming question says, colloquially, "It inflicts D6 S10 hits, period." The situation is like someone claiming that a certain weapon is both S5 and S7 at the same time. How can you contend that one statement saying that 2D6 hits inflicted and another statement saying that 1D6 hits are inflicted aren't in direct conflict?

The reason why the 1D6 wins out over the 2D6 is when ramming vehicles, the ram rules take precedence over the tank shock rules. As I've said before, if the ram rules didn't take precedence, then ramming actions would not take place due to tank shocks stopping prematurely before contacting vehicle units.

In order for the 2D6 hits to take precedence, the tank shock rules would somehow have to take precedence over the ramming rules, and that simply is not the case.

I say they don't contradict one another, because if you take it to be D6 normally, and 2D6 if the opponent isn't destroyed by the ram, it works. The downside to that argument is that it means it's always 2D6 hits.

A point someone helpfully mentioned via PM is that if it worked the way I'm drawing it, we'd get problems of whether being 'stopped' by friendly units in the way is a reason to do the 2D6 hits on them. So unfortunately not something workable in game. I'm rather interested about RAW though, simply to see if it can be added to the ridiculous RAW list or not.

Pika_power wrote:

solkan wrote:I'm confused by your response. The entire point is that the question addressing ramming wins over any conflict with the question covering tank shock. The first question says that the death rolla inflicts 2D6 hits during a stopped tank shock, and the ramming question says, colloquially, "It inflicts D6 S10 hits, period." The situation is like someone claiming that a certain weapon is both S5 and S7 at the same time. How can you contend that one statement saying that 2D6 hits inflicted and another statement saying that 1D6 hits are inflicted aren't in direct conflict?

The reason why the 1D6 wins out over the 2D6 is when ramming vehicles, the ram rules take precedence over the tank shock rules. As I've said before, if the ram rules didn't take precedence, then ramming actions would not take place due to tank shocks stopping prematurely before contacting vehicle units.

In order for the 2D6 hits to take precedence, the tank shock rules would somehow have to take precedence over the ramming rules, and that simply is not the case.

I say they don't contradict one another, because if you take it to be D6 normally, and 2D6 if the opponent isn't destroyed by the ram, it works. The downside to that argument is that it means it's always 2D6 hits.

And if I close my eyes and wish really hard I can see the rules allowing for deploying a unit in a transport on the table during deployment. Wishing does get me the missing deployment rules and it doesn't get you the ability to apply Tank Shock rules to Ramming.

The problem is that you are attempting to read the FAQ answer to ramming as saying something like "The death rolla does indeed inflict D6 S10 hits as normal for a tank shock against vehicles, as Ramming is just a type of Tank Shock." or something similar when it contains no such language and instead it simply says that it causes D6 S10 hits. The answer may as well say "The death rolla does indeed inflict D6 S10 hits against vehicles because we think it's cool."

If you want all of the tank shock rules to apply to the ram, then the tank stops immediately 1" away from the enemy vehicle according to the tank shock rules, no ram takes place, and the tank shock move ends immediately and there aren't any hits at all because the tank shock rules stopped the tank. Alternately, you can accept that the statements like "Ramming is a special type of tank shock ..." mean that when one has two rules, one of which applies to ramming, and another which applies to tank shock, and the two overlap in scope at all, the rule pertaining to ramming applies if there is a vehicle involved.

solkan wrote:
If you want all of the tank shock rules to apply to the ram, then the tank stops immediately 1" away from the enemy vehicle according to the tank shock rules, no ram takes place, and the tank shock move ends immediately and there aren't any hits at all because the tank shock rules stopped the tank.

The stock rolla is longer than 1" and the 1" restriction is measured, as all vehicle measurements, to the hull.
Rams from a rolla wagon are completely possible within the ruleset, sorry.

Here's one I'd like Pika to refute:

At the end of any successful tank shock or ram, the ork vehicle automatically takes 2D6 S10 hits. The reasoning:

1. At the end of any tank shock or ram move, the vehicle stops its movement.
1a) There's no way for a vehicle to fail to stop its movement, so it automatically stops its own movement.
2. "Does a unit that succesfully stops a Deff Rolla-equipped Battlewagon's Tank Shock suffer any hits? Yes, it does. Inf fact it suffers 2D6 S10 hits!"
3. Therefore, the Deff Rolla equipped vehicle suffers 2D6 S10 hits.

solkan wrote:Here's one I'd like Pika to refute:

At the end of any successful tank shock or ram, the ork vehicle automatically takes 2D6 S10 hits. The reasoning:

1. At the end of any tank shock or ram move, the vehicle stops its movement.
1a) There's no way for a vehicle to fail to stop its movement, so it automatically stops its own movement.
2. "Does a unit that succesfully stops a Deff Rolla-equipped Battlewagon's Tank Shock suffer any hits? Yes, it does. Inf fact it suffers 2D6 S10 hits!"
3. Therefore, the Deff Rolla equipped vehicle suffers 2D6 S10 hits.

That rule in the FAQ is referring to a unit that stopped a Battlewagon with Death or Glory attacks.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:That rule in the FAQ is referring to a unit that stopped a Battlewagon with Death or Glory attacks.

And you know this... How?

Because that is the only time a Deffrolla inflicts 2D6 hits.

If you want to get technical, which I know you do, a Ram that doesn't blow up an enemy tank or is finished normally isn't stopped by the stubborn enemy tank of the victorious battlewagon, it's stopped only by the rules of ramming. If you want to do 2D6 hits on your rulebook, be my guess.

I suppose if the counter-ram attack stops the battlewagon you'd have an argument, but that will almost never happen.

Gorkamorka wrote:

solkan wrote:
If you want all of the tank shock rules to apply to the ram, then the tank stops immediately 1" away from the enemy vehicle according to the tank shock rules, no ram takes place, and the tank shock move ends immediately and there aren't any hits at all because the tank shock rules stopped the tank.

The stock rolla is longer than 1" and the 1" restriction is measured, as all vehicle measurements, to the hull.
Rams from a rolla wagon are completely possible within the ruleset, sorry.

So what you are saying is that if the event is unable to proceed, you still proceed with the event because a vehicle UPGRADE is touching?

InquisitorFabius wrote:

Gorkamorka wrote:

solkan wrote:
If you want all of the tank shock rules to apply to the ram, then the tank stops immediately 1" away from the enemy vehicle according to the tank shock rules, no ram takes place, and the tank shock move ends immediately and there aren't any hits at all because the tank shock rules stopped the tank.

The stock rolla is longer than 1" and the 1" restriction is measured, as all vehicle measurements, to the hull.
Rams from a rolla wagon are completely possible within the ruleset, sorry.

So what you are saying is that if the event is unable to proceed, you still proceed with the event because a vehicle UPGRADE is touching?

Technically a Ram only happens if the vehicle comes into contact with the rammed vehicle. Since all measurements between vehicles are from hull to hull, "in contact" means that the hull of the first is touching the hull of the second. Therefore a death-rolla equipped vehicle may never ram another vehicle.

LMAO... that is the best thing I have heard all day...

It's pretty clear that GW did not write the FAQ answer from a rules-based perspective, because when Ramming=Tank Sock the rules break down in multiple ways.

GOGO GW!!

What's even funnier?

Trukks with Reinforced Rams can't ram either, for the same reason

I figure, like the discussion about the Valkyrie and the Vendetta, the "hull" of GW vehicles is reasonably defined as the footprint of the model. So if something like the Reinforced Ram and the Deff Rolla extend the model and aren't simply a projection like an antenna or a gun barrel, then it can touch another vehicle during a tank shock. Speaking of which, and not to derail the thread, didn't the Ork FAQ used to mention that Trukks equipped with a Reinforced Ram couldn't ram?

willydstyle wrote:
Technically a Ram only happens if the vehicle comes into contact with the rammed vehicle. Since all measurements between vehicles are from hull to hull, "in contact" means that the hull of the first is touching the hull of the second. Therefore a death-rolla equipped vehicle may never ram another vehicle.

Being in contact with another model and being 0" away are entirely different. Tanks can be 1" apart and have non-hull elements like dozer blades or rollas that touch and allow a legal ram.

Gorkamorka wrote:

willydstyle wrote:
Technically a Ram only happens if the vehicle comes into contact with the rammed vehicle. Since all measurements between vehicles are from hull to hull, "in contact" means that the hull of the first is touching the hull of the second. Therefore a death-rolla equipped vehicle may never ram another vehicle.

Being in contact with another model and being 0" away are entirely different. Tanks can be 1" apart and have non-hull elements like dozer blades or rollas that touch and allow a legal ram.

Well then you are just modeling for advantage!

Are we starting to move into the realm of "Vehicles with Dozerblades/RRams/Deff Rollas cannot be assaulted from the front" here?

If true, fine. Lets not waste any more time with that. By RAW it might be true, but we all know nobody ever plays it like that. Move along.

Steelmage99 wrote:Are we starting to move into the realm of "Vehicles with Dozerblades/RRams/Deff Rollas cannot be assaulted from the front" here?

If true, fine. Lets not waste any more time with that. By RAW it might be true, but we all know nobody ever plays it like that. Move along.

For me, the point is that the OP is based on rules that just aren't clearly, technically enough written to draw any sort of real conclusion.

willydstyle wrote:rules that just aren't clearly, technically enough written to draw any sort of real conclusion.

GW rules in a nutshell.

solkan wrote:Here's one I'd like Pika to refute:

At the end of any successful tank shock or ram, the ork vehicle automatically takes 2D6 S10 hits. The reasoning:

1. At the end of any tank shock or ram move, the vehicle stops its movement.
1a) There's no way for a vehicle to fail to stop its movement, so it automatically stops its own movement.
2. "Does a unit that succesfully stops a Deff Rolla-equipped Battlewagon's Tank Shock suffer any hits? Yes, it does. Inf fact it suffers 2D6 S10 hits!"
3. Therefore, the Deff Rolla equipped vehicle suffers 2D6 S10 hits.

Sure, okay. Next time facing Battle Wagons is going to be fun.

I fully accept that using my original idea is now impractical, so now I want to see how many errors can be read from the rule set.

The battlewagon does not stop it's own movement. The movement rules do. The Battlewagon is passive in the act of stopping.