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So, now that the faq had been updated ive ordered a few of the upgrade sprues, it was never worth argueing it with people so i just never used deffrollas.

hq

Ghazghkull 225
Big mek /w burna, kff, 'eavy armor 110

elite
8x nobz /w painboy /w grot orderly, 2x power klaws 2x big choppas, all eavy armor, waagh banner 1x rokkit 1x tl shoota 2x skorcha kombis, bosspole, 1x ammo runt, all riding on battlewagon with 1x big shoota deff rolla, red paint, boarding plank, 461

Troops

9x nobz /w painboy /w grot orderly, 3x power klaws 2x big choppas, all eavy armor, waagh banner 1x rokkit 1x tl shoota 2x skorcha kombis, bosspole, 2x ammo runt, all riding on battlewagon with 1x big shoota deff rolla, red paint, boarding plank 508

20x boyz /w nob /w power klaw & bosspole 160
20x boyz /w nob /w power klaw & bosspole 160
12x boyz /w nob /w power klaw & bosspole in trukk /w red paint boarding plank and reinforced ram 162
12x boyz /w nob /w power klaw & bosspole in trukk /w red paint boarding plank and reinforced ram 162
12x boyz /w nob /w power klaw & bosspole in trukk /w red paint boarding plank and reinforced ram 162

Fast Attack
1x deffkopta /w tl rokkits and buzzsaw 70
1x deffkopta /w tl rokkits and buzzsaw 70

Heavy Support
1x battlewagon, 1x big shoota, red paint, deff rolla, boarding plank 125
1x battlewagon, 1x big shoota, red paint, deff rolla, boarding plank 125

pretty straightforward mech ork like i usually play, though with less trukks and more focus on wagons than a usual 5 trukk + wagon list, 4 deffrollas hitting vehicles makes me smile really.

Ghaz & mek /w elites nobz in center of the line, deffkoptas pregame turboboosting if i have first turn to go after some rear armor with those nice s7 autohitting attacks turn 1 if rokkits fail (they usually do even tl lol >.&gt

depending on the army im facing trukks can either get stuck in on turn 2 vs footy armys with ghazs waagh, or just sit there waiting for the wagons to trundle up and start using their whirly can openers, turn 2-3 should be when the game effectively ends if things go my way id think...

I think you should put four battlewagons and three trukks onto the table, with your KFF Mek's wagon in the center, and actually look at it. Examine its footprint and see if you can actually get all of them within your 6" KFF radius - I don't think you can.

Second, battlewagons are open-topped. You don't have any weapons your battlewagons, meaning that a vehicle damage result of 3, 4, 5, 6 ends your day. IE, you're offering up a 66% chance that every hit that gets through is going to ruin your day. On a penetrating roll, that's +1, so any result of 2-6 ends your day (83%) - and if someone shoots you with melta, tyranid lance, railgun.....even if they roll a 1, you're still immobilized. Bad planning, something you should fix.

Third....even *IF* you get all your vehicles into the 6" KFF footprint, that means your battlewagons are exactly side by side, no room to spare, and your trukks are either in front of or behind your battlewagons (hopefully behind being protected, and keeping away nasty deep-striking pods). Now, if you get wrecked (second successful shot into a battlewagon - very likely), you have only a thin arc out front or behind your wagon (depending on where your trukks are) to deploy what was inside. Exploding is almost preferable because your deployment footprint is bigger - but you can't deploy out front and out back without breaking coherency and you don't have any room on the sides....IE, you're boned.

Fourth...Deffrollas *are* cool. They are nasty, and will be in every of my battlewagon-toting lists from hence-forth. The problem is that they're also close range, and with a maximum speed of 12", playing keep away for at least 3 turns by hugging the back table edge and basically running (or being Eldar, Dark Eldar and moving as fast as you while continuing to shoot) is going to be troublesome, and you don't have any anti-tank outside of your close combat abilities - which is going to be absolutely nerfed over three+ turns of someone shooting the crap out of you and getting almost guaranteed immobilize or better results.

Fifth - deffkoptas are great as well; I use two in my own list in the same configuration you do. You're only going first 50% of the time, and the 50% you do go first, its quite possible to defeat their alpha strike - they're not a guaranteed tool. When they work, its usually because someone didn't know they could scout or alpha-strike. Short of that, its easy to defeat them. If you come up against *my* mechanized orks and you get first turn, I'm either going to drop my little 40 point gretchin squad up front - and since you can't move within 12" of me during the scout move, you'll automatically fail to get to my vehicles during turn1, or I'm going to sacrifice a trukk up there (gretchin could impede movement if you don't assault them and if I'm in terrain).

In short, games will *NOT* go the way you think they will. Your battlewagons are configured poorly to make you almost automatically get immobilized at least, you only have two battlewagons needing attention (Ghazghkull and KFF) - the other wagons are full and can't hold an HQ from their own destroyed battlewagon, your single KFF with that point configuration is unlikely to give you the screen you think you're going to get, and ordinance hits side armor anyway...and you're a prime target for all the ordinance that can be dished out. Some decent positioning on your formation, and ANY scatter dice in ANY direction, even up to should still nuke something.

I agree with Dashofpepper. You simply don't have the footprint to pull off the KFF for every vehicle. You could try to stagger them in lines to measure diagonally, but it'sll still be a very tight deployment, ripe for Ordnance templates and whatnot.

Another glaring weakness of these Battlewagon Rolla lists is the inherent limitations in Tank Shock/Ram movements. To perform either, you must follow a VERY exact sequence of movement. You may only pivot on the spot, then move in a straight line. When vehicles are all jammed together to maximize KFF coverage, you kneecap your potential Shock/Ram arc. Expect to see your opponents using cheap, expendable vehicles to ram your side armor. A 35 point Rhino can ram the side armor of your Wagon, and essentially pin it in place for a turn, or at least limit it to only moving directly forward for a turn. You cannot pivot if a vehicle is touching your side armor, as you are not allowed to displace the enemy tank, nor can you "back up" your Wagon in order to pivot.
That's a 35 point sacrifice I'll take every time.

TheRhino wrote:I agree with Dashofpepper. You simply don't have the footprint to pull off the KFF for every vehicle. You could try to stagger them in lines to measure diagonally, but it'sll still be a very tight deployment, ripe for Ordnance templates and whatnot.

Another glaring weakness of these Battlewagon Rolla lists is the inherent limitations in Tank Shock/Ram movements. To perform either, you must follow a VERY exact sequence of movement. You may only pivot on the spot, then move in a straight line. When vehicles are all jammed together to maximize KFF coverage, you kneecap your potential Shock/Ram arc. Expect to see your opponents using cheap, expendable vehicles to ram your side armor. A 35 point Rhino can ram the side armor of your Wagon, and essentially pin it in place for a turn, or at least limit it to only moving directly forward for a turn. You cannot pivot if a vehicle is touching your side armor, as you are not allowed to displace the enemy tank, nor can you "back up" your Wagon in order to pivot.
That's a 35 point sacrifice I'll take every time.

Great point, I didnt' even think of that.

well, i did just lay out all of it on the tabl;e and it all fits nicely inside the kff bubble, seems like you just need to get the old 2ed trukks that are like 3/5ths the size of the current trukks, also i forgot to put on their all the battlewagons have 1x big shoota.

also for the whole wrecked with it all in rock formation ... only .000000001 cm of vehicle hull needs to be within 6" of the battlewagon to get the kff save, learn to angle your 10/10/10 trukks diagonally? i dont know but i have plenty of room with this setup, it just takes some creative palcement, and reinforced rams/rollas on everything ot just plow through everything to maintain formation.

also theres nothing stopping me from turboboosting within 12" of you that ive ever seen? infiltrating yes, but thats during deployment, the move is after deployment before the game starts so deployment restrictions wouldnt effect scout moves? if thats true pretty much every critque you had made was debunked mostly, forgot to type the big shootas on wagons, everything fits easily in my kff footprint, third i do have more than enough room to spare fordisembarking and setting up rams and tank shocks. your fourth point isnt really one that i can see, not a lot of antitank... well thats nothing new except now i have mroe than was available before with rollas?

so pretty much still looking for valid c&c

Dash has hit the nail on the head, more or less.

Also I used to take trukks. I dropped them all because trukks are weak and if your keeping them with the wagons then they're not moving 18". Also 12 orks isn't anything to write home about.

Considering you have 2 units of trukk boyz I would combine these and drop 4 orks, the trukks come to 70 in total and then the 4 orks come to 24 giving you 94 points in total, enough to buy a wagon and a big shoota - shoota for reasons dash mentioned btw.

Now you have a mobile force which moves at the same speed nothing is held back and you have no achilles heel.

Other problem is anti tank. You have none, well only the deffkopters and they're not hard to kill. You need lootas for range anti tank.

mon-keigh slayer wrote:well, i did just lay out all of it on the tabl;e and it all fits nicely inside the kff bubble, seems like you just need to get the old 2ed trukks that are like 3/5ths the size of the current trukks, also i forgot to put on their all the battlewagons have 1x big shoota.

also for the whole wrecked with it all in rock formation ... only .000000001 cm of vehicle hull needs to be within 6" of the battlewagon to get the kff save, learn to angle your 10/10/10 trukks diagonally? i dont know but i have plenty of room with this setup, it just takes some creative palcement, and reinforced rams/rollas on everything ot just plow through everything to maintain formation.

also theres nothing stopping me from turboboosting within 12" of you that ive ever seen? infiltrating yes, but thats during deployment, the move is after deployment before the game starts so deployment restrictions wouldnt effect scout moves? if thats true pretty much every critque you had made was debunked mostly, forgot to type the big shootas on wagons, everything fits easily in my kff footprint, third i do have more than enough room to spare fordisembarking and setting up rams and tank shocks. your fourth point isnt really one that i can see, not a lot of antitank... well thats nothing new except now i have mroe than was available before with rollas?

so pretty much still looking for valid c&c

Well, uh...it appears that you're *not* looking for valid c&c. My advice to you is to dig into your rulebook. Start with page 76 to correct your mistaken assumptions, then rewind to page 1, and do a careful reading all the way through. You have a piss-poor attitude. The simple fact that your rudeness here is unforgivably immature and disrespectful is enough to keep me from offering you any future advice, and I think you'll probably find that other decent ork players will shy away from this thread and you in general as well - you're not looking for criticism and improvements, you're looking for people to clap you on the back for what a great list you've assembled, which you haven't.

That's my advice to you - straighten up your attitude, learn the farking rules before you "debunk" other people - I *would* say that you make yourself look bad, but in this case I can't because you had already made yourself look bad.

That is all. I don't surf these forums and troll the army list section to help people tailor their army lists so that 10 year olds with bad attitudes can flip out that I don't gush praise over their lists. I'm out.

TheRhino wrote:. A 35 point Rhino can ram the side armor of your Wagon, and essentially pin it in place for a turn, or at least limit it to only moving directly forward for a turn. You cannot pivot if a vehicle is touching your side armor, as you are not allowed to displace the enemy tank, nor can you "back up" your Wagon in order to pivot.
That's a 35 point sacrifice I'll take every time.

Clearly in a KP mission this would be inadvisable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
p.s. I routinely run four battlewagons with one KFF. It's easy to deploy them all within 6" and still leave a small gap to get the boyz out in case one is wrecked at the top of turn 1. By turn three at least one wagon is dead and with luck the boyz are out an assaulting so the KFF doesn't matter as much anymore.

Well, there was no rudeness in my post, sorry that you seem to think everything revolves around you and is an attack against you? I was speaking along the lines of i had went and shown that all the things you had said did not apply, and hence was looking for relevant valid c&c ... but whatever dash, e-dramas fun i guess.

I would try to fit one more battlewagon in there just because. Also, you don't need to worry about wagons behind your wagons. They should have cover already. Why not consolidate the 2 boy units into 20x boys in another battlewagon.

mon-keigh slayer wrote:Well, there was no rudeness in my post, sorry that you seem to think everything revolves around you and is an attack against you? I was speaking along the lines of i had went and shown that all the things you had said did not apply, and hence was looking for relevant valid c&c ... but whatever dash, e-dramas fun i guess.

You're unbelievable.

Tell you what. Lets play a game. Do you know what Vassal is? If you don't, a quick google search for "Vassal 40k" will find it for you. Lets jump online and play a game sometime soon. How about...my 1850 vs your 2500. Since you won't listen to reason without being a jerk about it, lets just get a game in so I can use a seriously disadvantaged point list and monkey stomp you to illustrate your weaknesses.

C'mon. My 1850 vs your 2500, and if you beat me, you can come back and crow about my edramas and how vindicated you are. Short of that, you're just being a donkey.

I would happily Judge such an event.

However, Dash of Pepper does know what he is talking about, and you should heed his advice.

Dash, nothing personal, but why do you have to challenge everyone to vassal all the time? If the none believers don't take your advice then feth 'em. Sometimes it is like talking to a brick wall but I know my list will take them out, I know this because this has happened in person when I've given feedback and people don't listen. But this is only because they're local etc etc. I wouldn't worry about some no body across the the other side of the world.

btw, no offence to mon-keigh fella!

btw, dash I've just got vassal. No idea how to work it. Would you mind showing me and perhaps have a game, maybe?

I will say that even if you can get 4 Battlewagons into the KFF bubble which I think you can, terrain isn't always going to allow you to do it. Your talking about your army list like there won't be buildings/terrain in your deployment zone or in the middle of the board. Unless you play on board Oklahoma your going about building your list the wrong way. Redundancy is good. Being able to break down into 2 "wings" is almost critical due to terrain issues. You'll never be able to move as a solid block with a block that big. Just my thoughts.

mercer wrote:Dash, nothing personal, but why do you have to challenge everyone to vassal all the time? If the none believers don't take your advice then feth 'em. Sometimes it is like talking to a brick wall but I know my list will take them out, I know this because this has happened in person when I've given feedback and people don't listen. But this is only because they're local etc etc. I wouldn't worry about some no body across the the other side of the world.

btw, no offence to mon-keigh fella!

btw, dash I've just got vassal. No idea how to work it. Would you mind showing me and perhaps have a game, maybe?

Get Skype (free download) - 90% of Vassal users have it, and it makes communicating much faster; voicechat > typing. Log in and play with the interface a bit. Drag a couple models onto the table. Then get with someone on Skype and they'll walk you through how to do it - I'm prepping for a GT this weekend, trying to get models finished, and pulling out in the morning for a 7 hour road trip to get to the GT.

And in answer to why I challenge people on Vassal: This is the internet. People will argue until they are blue in the face about how right they are, and throw temper tantrums, and call names, and defend themselves against any comers that they're right (kind of like we have here) - no matter how many people say, "That's a dumb idea" or "You're kinda dumb" or anything else to this brand of people, they won't change. The only way to make them see reason is to prove it.

The only way to prove it here is with Vassal. I'll take a 25-30% disadvantage in points, table him to illustrate the weaknesses he refuses to admit, have it judged by Gwar, who will spank him when he tries to break the rules (as he's elaborated on here), take screenshots of his extremely larger army getting tabled, then post here the results. And I'll feel better for having done so, and get 5-6 private messages about "Good job, can't stand that guy" or something similar; its the same routine every time, and a couple hours of entertainment for me.

Hulksmash wrote:I will say that even if you can get 4 Battlewagons into the KFF bubble which I think you can, terrain isn't always going to allow you to do it. Your talking about your army list like there won't be buildings/terrain in your deployment zone or in the middle of the board. Unless you play on board Oklahoma your going about building your list the wrong way. Redundancy is good. Being able to break down into 2 "wings" is almost critical due to terrain issues. You'll never be able to move as a solid block with a block that big. Just my thoughts.

Terrain won't matter unless its deemed 'impassable.' Recall that the deff rolla allows you to reroll failed dangerous terrain tests. If being in the bubble means that some wagons start in dangerous terrain then sobeit.

olympia wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:I will say that even if you can get 4 Battlewagons into the KFF bubble which I think you can, terrain isn't always going to allow you to do it. Your talking about your army list like there won't be buildings/terrain in your deployment zone or in the middle of the board. Unless you play on board Oklahoma your going about building your list the wrong way. Redundancy is good. Being able to break down into 2 "wings" is almost critical due to terrain issues. You'll never be able to move as a solid block with a block that big. Just my thoughts.

Terrain won't matter unless its deemed 'impassable.' Recall that the deff rolla allows you to reroll failed dangerous terrain tests. If being in the bubble means that some wagons start in dangerous terrain then sobeit.

You would be surprised how much a single Snake Eyes will feth over a plan. And how often one rolls it.

olympia wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:I will say that even if you can get 4 Battlewagons into the KFF bubble which I think you can, terrain isn't always going to allow you to do it. Your talking about your army list like there won't be buildings/terrain in your deployment zone or in the middle of the board. Unless you play on board Oklahoma your going about building your list the wrong way. Redundancy is good. Being able to break down into 2 "wings" is almost critical due to terrain issues. You'll never be able to move as a solid block with a block that big. Just my thoughts.

Terrain won't matter unless its deemed 'impassable.' Recall that the deff rolla allows you to reroll failed dangerous terrain tests. If being in the bubble means that some wagons start in dangerous terrain then sobeit.

But you also can't put your battlewagon where you can't put it. Its well and good that a ruined building is only difficult terrain and that a vehicle could theoretically smash through it, but on the table, you're going around it or balancing your model on the top of it precariously.

Gwar! wrote:You would be surprised how much a single Snake Eyes will feth over a plan. And how often one rolls it.

Aha! But the plan is to roll snake eyes. Darn you Gwar! You discovered my secret strategy!

The setup- SAG Big Mek leading a mechanized ork list.

Throw him out of a transport near some enemies, protect him for a turn, and then have him shoot his SAG getting 1,1 (remove him and everything d6" around him) AND then rolling a six for the removal of everything around him!

My secret strategy, ruined forever!!!

Anyway, mon-keigh slayer....

Have you looked at the Worst Case Scenario for your list.? By that I mean several transports do get popped and you have to fit all those models in such a small area after they get launched out. Can you keep the units from getting destroyed even if they are crammed together if you put them all together with your Big Mek with KFF?

This list relies too much on the deffrolla and nobz to do the heavy lifting. I guarantee you that any list you play with competent ranged anti-tank will take out those nobz BWs ASAP, making them 1200+ points worth of sink, since presumably Ghaz and the Mek are with them. Think about that: half your points gone effectively eliminated if those two BWs bite it. At 2500 points, you will be facing anti-tank in numbers you won't believe, so it's something you need to account for.

Deathstar type units (like the nobz) dominate noobs and low point games. High end, 'Ard Boy type lists have multiple ways of dealing with them and they become an anchor for you, making you depend on them and psyched out when they fall (which they generally will). My advice? Ditch them entirely and go the route of having lots of competent units, forcing your opponent to choose and not really caring which falls because that which remains will still do the job.

Your list is also virtually non-existent when it comes to ranged anti-tank. This cripples you against mobile and mechanized armies that can evade the deffrollas and also cripples your ability to take out some of the anti-tank firing at you. Here, you are basically counting on one KFF to save your entire army so you can get there and bash. It won't happen. Lootas, warbuggies with TL Rokkits, this sort of complementary firepower will take out some of your enemies by ejecting them from their transport (giving you the speed edge and opportunity to assault) or by crippling their anti-tank (by popping the landspeeders, Chimeras, etc. that will nibble at you safely out of deffrolla range).

Personally, I would restructure the list to put normal boyz in the battlewagons, add units of Warbuggies with TL rokkits, and add lootas. Make the BWs 'ard cased if you don't have shoota boyz, tankbustas, or burnas inside, and I like having armor plates to ignore "can't move" results to keep the column moving. Any stoppage is death. I'd have a second KFF mek so that you can split the column around impassible terrain or in case the first KFF mek has his transport shot. If you must get a 4th BW in there, I'd get three dirt cheap nobz to get the wagon, and have them surrender the BW to another slugga mob on turn 1.

WarOne wrote:

Gwar! wrote:You would be surprised how much a single Snake Eyes will feth over a plan. And how often one rolls it.

Have you looked at the Worst Case Scenario for your list.? By that I mean several transports do get popped and you have to fit all those models in such a small area after they get launched out. Can you keep the units from getting destroyed even if they are crammed together if you put them all together with your Big Mek with KFF?

I had this happen to me in my last tournament. Was running 4 wagons filled with nobz, 2 squads of boyz, and a group of burnas and went up against a necron list in my second round. 2 monoliths, tons of warriors, heavy and normal destroyers and the deceiver. First round I successfully destroyed all of his heavy destroyers with some lucky loota fire, then raced my wagons straight up the middle. (spearhead deployment) What followed for the rest of the game was some of the worst luck I've ever seen as I was pulverized by failed deff rolla dangerous terrain checks getting caught in lava flows, and my wagons slowly but surely were glanced to death by the list. His deceiver also one shotted Ghazzy who had to bail from his wrecked wagon. With all four wagons packed so closely to take advantage of the KFF I was stuck Black Hawk Down style in a small patch of urban terrian trying so squeeze 60+ models around the burning wrecks of my wagons. Needless to say I was crushed quickly, only getting the tie beacuse of Snikrot finally coming out in the bottom of turn 5...

Was defiantly a nightmare scenario.

kowbasher wrote:His deceiver also one shotted Ghazzy who had to bail from his wrecked wagon.

For future reference, Ghazghkull has an adamantium skull, and is immune to instant death.

What did the deceiver do to bypass that?

Sorry I should have clarified, by "one shotted" I meant killed Ghazzy outright thru 4 unsaveible (real word?) wounds at a higher Int in the first round of close combat when he charged me. I'm not too familiar with Necron rules, especially the Deceiver. Apparently all wounds he causes ignore ALL saves, even invulnerable. I thought that was kind of weird, but he was a veteran tournament player so I assumed someone with more Necron knowledge would have called him on it by now if it wasn't true.

Damn C'tan proved to be unkillable as he always used his teleport ability just as I would charge him, and hide behind my wrecks to prevent my lootas from taking him down.

Ah...C'Tan weapons bypass invulnerable saves; you said one-shotted; I thought you meant insta-killed.

But yeah - ignore the C'tan, phase out the necrons!!

Hulksmash wrote:I will say that even if you can get 4 Battlewagons into the KFF bubble which I think you can, terrain isn't always going to allow you to do it. Your talking about your army list like there won't be buildings/terrain in your deployment zone or in the middle of the board. Unless you play on board Oklahoma your going about building your list the wrong way. Redundancy is good. Being able to break down into 2 "wings" is almost critical due to terrain issues. You'll never be able to move as a solid block with a block that big. Just my thoughts.

You can do it because I've done it myself before. Just put them in a T config and you've done it. However terrain is a major factor and this isn't always possible, unless you play on a football field. Luckily I put one of mine in terrain and had reinforced rams just in case


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dashofpepper wrote:

mercer wrote:Dash, nothing personal, but why do you have to challenge everyone to vassal all the time? If the none believers don't take your advice then feth 'em. Sometimes it is like talking to a brick wall but I know my list will take them out, I know this because this has happened in person when I've given feedback and people don't listen. But this is only because they're local etc etc. I wouldn't worry about some no body across the the other side of the world.

btw, no offence to mon-keigh fella!

btw, dash I've just got vassal. No idea how to work it. Would you mind showing me and perhaps have a game, maybe?

Get Skype (free download) - 90% of Vassal users have it, and it makes communicating much faster; voicechat > typing. Log in and play with the interface a bit. Drag a couple models onto the table. Then get with someone on Skype and they'll walk you through how to do it - I'm prepping for a GT this weekend, trying to get models finished, and pulling out in the morning for a 7 hour road trip to get to the GT.

And in answer to why I challenge people on Vassal: This is the internet. People will argue until they are blue in the face about how right they are, and throw temper tantrums, and call names, and defend themselves against any comers that they're right (kind of like we have here) - no matter how many people say, "That's a dumb idea" or "You're kinda dumb" or anything else to this brand of people, they won't change. The only way to make them see reason is to prove it.

The only way to prove it here is with Vassal. I'll take a 25-30% disadvantage in points, table him to illustrate the weaknesses he refuses to admit, have it judged by Gwar, who will spank him when he tries to break the rules (as he's elaborated on here), take screenshots of his extremely larger army getting tabled, then post here the results. And I'll feel better for having done so, and get 5-6 private messages about "Good job, can't stand that guy" or something similar; its the same routine every time, and a couple hours of entertainment for me.

I don't have a skype phone or a mic so that would be a issue.

lol whatever floats your boat. I find that sometimes I just explain my point again and 99% of people get it. However, it does seem from your last paragraph about your own glory. If folks do not listen then who cares, let them get on with it.

I'll try and get this Vassal thing working and hopefully we can sort something out