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I had a game the other day versus a Tyranid player as you all know I play Tyranids myself so this was quite annoying.

In the game he decided that he would Deep Strike his Trygons right infront of my Necrons. Like pretty much in base contact (remember deep strike rules allow you to place your model ANYWHERE) There was plenty of space on the board elsewhere but no, he wanted to put it right next to me.

And i'm looking at it like 'What is he thinking? Is he trying to scare me or something? Or does he not know that he's gonna mishap if he lands within 1" of my units.

Low and behold that's exactly what happened his Trygon lands right in place which is 1" of my units and i let him know that he has won himself a Mishap. He argues that Trygons and Drop Pods cannot mishap and there were like 7 other people viewing the game and they ALL claim the same thing that Trygons and Drop Pods cannot mishap.

So apparently a lot of people are UNAWARE or using their rules improperly. So I want to clarify for the rest of us to keep our sanity because this debate ruined my game, all over the ignorance of many others.

Drop Pods/Trygons - They both REDUCE their scatter distance to avoid landing ON TOP of other models or impassible terrain. This is ALL that they do. Nothing more, nothing less.

Mishaps Occur - When landing on top of impassible terrain, on top of enemy models, off the table, or within 1" of an enemy.

Please read the rules carefully now. A trygon and drop pod do NOT ignore the 'within 1" of an enemy. So that if you are landing within 1" you WILL get a mishap. Such as in the case of placing your units within 1" of the enemy to begin with and then rolling a 'hit' on the scatter.

And no the rules are NOT intended otherwise. Why?

Because Mawlocs specifically have rules to avoid this sort of thing even stating that models are PUSHED out of the way after it arrives to avoid being within 1"

And so does the Monolith! clearly stating that it pushes other models away when it arrives.

If GW intended for pods and trygons to ignore it, they would've written it in. And given that there's 2 things in the same codex one that ignores the 1" thing and one that doesn't it's clear that this is simply a difference in their rules and the security of their method of arrival.

-Slowclap-

This is why I avoid Vassal nowadays.

I thought taht drop pods scattered and then reduced the scatter so as to land safely (in the case of terrain).

Example: my DP land and scatter 6" onto a building. I thought it worked that the scatter is reduced to the point weher it land as close as possible tot he terrain in question.

Praxiss wrote:I thought taht drop pods scattered and then reduced the scatter so as to land safely (in the case of terrain).

Example: my DP land and scatter 6" onto a building. I thought it worked that the scatter is reduced to the point weher it land as close as possible tot he terrain in question.

No, it only reduces the scatter if it lands on IMPASSIBLE Terrain or Other models.

...

Ah. so stuff like rubble, trees etc the DP can mishap. Building it reduces. (unless you have made alternate agreements on what counts as "impassable before hand - i'm thinkign things like rivers/holes etc).

Praxiss wrote:Ah. so stuff like rubble, trees etc the DP can mishap. Building it reduces. (unless you have made alternate agreements on what counts as "impassable before hand - i'm thinkign things like rivers/holes etc).

No, it doesn't mishap either. Mishap only happens when you DS into Impassible or other units. If you Deep Strike onto Difficult terrain (Like Rubble/Trees) you take dangerous terrain tests instead.

Gotcha. I apologise for my dense-ness.

So does a drop pod reduce its scatter by exactly enough to avoid landing on enemy models and then still mishap because it ended up within 1 inch of them?

jshbchnn wrote:So does a drop pod reduce its scatter by exactly enough to avoid landing on enemy models and then still mishap because it ended up within 1 inch of them?

No, because doing that means you didn't avoid the enemy models.

I have an idea. Instead of being a dill weed. next time someone is going to drop within 1 inch of your models remind him that he's going to have to take a mishap. then it will never happen.

This is the behavior that's driving people away from this hobby.

Wow, this is a really deep reading into the rules but I can see how it reads that way. This completely changes how DPs work. I would love to tell some on with WG or SG, "Nope. Back in the corner with you."

I disagree, i Say they will not mishap, and here is WHY i say so, and i will Site several Codex's for it.

So the Exact wording for the "Inertial Guidance System" (the thing that stops mishaps from happening) is this. "should a Drop pod scatter on top of impassable terrain or another model (friend or foe!) then reduce the scatter distance by the minimum required in order to avoid the obstacle" Page 47 Space Wolf Codex, page 69 Space marine codex

and the Trygons is "Subterranean Assault" and it states "If, when a trygon (or trygon prime) deploys via Deep Strike, it scatters on top of impassable terrain or another model (friend or foe!) reduce the scatter distance by the minimum required to avoid the obstacle"
Page 50 tyranid codex
Also, the mawlocs is "terror from the deep" which states " if a mawloc deep strikes onto a point occupied by another model, do not roll on the deep strike mishap table, but instead do the following" Page 51 Tyranid Codex

So what that tells me, is the only argument about Drop Pods and Trygons misshapping is if the Table edge is being considered "impassable" if it is, then they reduce scatter, if not, then they misshap, but if you go onto the table anywhere, and scatter onto impassable, or Friendly or enemy troops, you reduce the scatter to avoid them, thus avoiding Mishaps, where this may mean you are B2B with the impassable Terrien, it DOESN'T mean you land withing an 1" of the enemy for you would not have avoided anything, so you reduce youre scatter on that so you are at the 1" limit of the enemy.

Also on that note, mawlocs -can- and -do- misshap, if they Scatter into Impassable terrien.


Summery. trygons/drop pods can only misshap if the table edge is defined as allowing them to, otherwise the "reduce by the minimum to avoid" means just that, you are shortining it down so they do not mishap. And mawlocs still bust their skulls open by mishaping into Impassable

Nightrave wrote:I disagree, i Say they will not mishap, and here is WHY i say so, and i will Site several Codex's for it.

You are still wrong.

If you aim at a place where a "Hit" will cause a Mishap, a Pod Will mishap, because there is no way to Reduce the Scatter to avoid the Mishap, because you didn't scatter.

Nightrave wrote:I disagree, i Say they will not mishap, and here is WHY i say so, and i will Site several Codex's for it.

So the Exact wording for the "Inertial Guidance System" (the thing that stops mishaps from happening) is this. "should a Drop pod scatter on top of impassable terrain or another model (friend or foe!) then reduce the scatter distance by the minimum required in order to avoid the obstacle" Page 47 Space Wolf Codex, page 69 Space marine codex

and the Trygons is "Subterranean Assault" and it states "If, when a trygon (or trygon prime) deploys via Deep Strike, it scatters on top of impassable terrain or another model (friend or foe!) reduce the scatter distance by the minimum required to avoid the obstacle"
Page 50 tyranid codex
Also, the mawlocs is "terror from the deep" which states " if a mawloc deep strikes onto a point occupied by another model, do not roll on the deep strike mishap table, but instead do the following" Page 51 Tyranid Codex

So what that tells me, is the only argument about Drop Pods and Trygons misshapping is if the Table edge is being considered "impassable" if it is, then they reduce scatter, if not, then they misshap, but if you go onto the table anywhere, and scatter onto impassable, or Friendly or enemy troops, you reduce the scatter to avoid them, thus avoiding Mishaps, where this may mean you are B2B with the impassable Terrien, it DOESN'T mean you land withing an 1" of the enemy for you would not have avoided anything, so you reduce youre scatter on that so you are at the 1" limit of the enemy.

Also on that note, mawlocs -can- and -do- misshap, if they Scatter into Impassable terrien.


Summery. trygons/drop pods can only misshap if the table edge is defined as allowing them to, otherwise the "reduce by the minimum to avoid" means just that, you are shortining it down so they do not mishap. And mawlocs still bust their skulls open by mishaping into Impassable

I don't think you understand the point the OP was trying to make...

That much i get, i wasn't keeping into account if you put the Model 1" from an Enemy model, though you can still avoid a mishap depending on the direction of the mishap and models but thats including Variables.

I agree if you place it to where he can mishap he will mishap, but if he is out of that zone in example more then 2" away, then he will not. is that fair Gwar?

OP and Gwar are correct. Drop Pods/Spores/Trygons etc don't have a "Never Mishaps" rule, which is contrary to what many people seem to think and play as . They have a rule that lets them reduce the distance that they scatter if it would put them on impassable terrain or another model. If there is no safe spot between where you initially aimed your model and the scatter results then you would still suffer a mishap. You don't pick a safe spot anywhere nearby, you don't get to ignore the mishap results.

(I'm assuming that you can't reduce your scatter below 0" and scatter negative inches in the opposite direction rolled on the scatter die.)

Yeah, what some are missing is that there was no scatter in the OP. So there was nothing to reduce.

A DP will not scatter into enemy units, but if you aim for them.... you are on your own...

After reading every single one of these posts, let me see if I understand this. Here's the example I'll use:

-Tyranid player places trygon prime 4" in front of a unit of necron warriors.

-The player scatters 4" forward and the base lands directly on top of the warrior on the end.

-Via the rules the scatter is reduced 3.99", satisfying RAW

-Seeing that the trygon is within 1" of enemy models, it will mishap.

Is this correct?

Another thought also: Could you reduce the scatter 2", or must you reduce the scatter by the MINIMUM distance in order to avoid landing directly on top of the said enemy models?


Also, thanks to the OP for putting this up. You're very insightful and I can see how you got right down to the phonemes and syllables of the RAW.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:After reading every single one of these posts, let me see if I understand this. Here's the example I'll use:

-Tyranid player places trygon prime 4" in front of a unit of necron warriors.

-The player scatters 4" forward and the base lands directly on top of the warrior on the end.

-Via the rules the scatter is reduced 3.99", satisfying RAW

-Seeing that the trygon is within 1" of enemy models, it will mishap.

Is this correct?

No, it scatters back so the edge of the base is 1.000000001" away from the Necrons. I assume by 4" you mean the edge of the base, not the centre.

@ Grunt for Christ:

I don't have my books with me, but I believe the rules are worded "reduce the scatter by the minimum to avoid mishap" or somesuch. So, even if you scatter on top of the Necrons, you will reduce that scatter to where there is 1" between you and the Necrons.

EDIT: Ninja'd again by Gwar!

Correct, I meant from the edge of the base. So, by what you just said, the creature would not mishap as it is more than 1" away from enemy models?

Grunt, No. That is not the scenario he is describing.


Try and DS directly onto an enemy unit.
Roll a 'hit', so there is no scatter.
Now there is a mishap.
A Pod/trygon/etc can reduce scatter, but if no scatter, nothing to reduce.


In this case, he tried to DS no on top of the unit, but within 1"; which is essentially the same thing.
Rolled a 'hit'
So there should have been a mishap.

I understand that if you go directly on top of the unit and there is no scatter you land on top of them, thus it would be a mishap.

In my example, the tyranid player was not attempting to strike on top of another unit, but in front of them. In GWAR's explanation said that you'd place the creature's base 1.00000000000001" away from the base of the enemy. How would that result in a mishap? You'd technically be outside of 1", correct?

In that scenario, correct. It would be 1.01" and no mishap.

Just commenting that the OP scenario was different than that scenario.

Just one question about all these threads: what kind of MORON purposefully tries to mess up his own drop pod?

@coredump

Indeed it was... I apologize for not mentioning it in my original post. I just brought up mine because in my last game that would have happened (had the scatter not been as low as it was) and at the time I would have done it very wrong. Thank you (and GWAR) for the clarification. Now I feel like I'm finally getting a hold of this new set of shenanigans.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nightwatch wrote:Just one question about all these threads: what kind of MORON purposefully tries to mess up his own drop pod?

Someone who doesn't understand the rules of the mawloc very well thinking that if they place their big bug on top of a unit of terminators they all have to make their invulnerables? Doesn't make them any smarter, but I can see how a short-thinking mind would believe that there's an 'easy' way to get around the rules everyone else has to follow.

Here's the irony...

If you don't place a model within 1" of the enemy or in impassible terrain on your INTENDED SPOT TO MOVE... err DEEP STRIKE ... that is, if you do place it anywhere on the field, that is legal per the normal movement rules, then you never have this problem...

...

The problem only occurs when someone tries to read "Anywhere on the table" and ignores all other rules of the game and of the phase. Those people are also reading "anywhere" literally and they are "interpretting" table to meet their goals.... which is false logic in itself.

Kinda makes you thik maybe the never meant for you to place it "anywhere" after all... lol, but we already had that discussion... and we are waiting on a deep strike FAQ from GW...

I quite pleased that the locals and my game group play Deep Strike as we believe it reads and was meant. Anywhere on the battlefield but not in violatio of 1" or impassible terrain rules...

Wait, so if it only reduces to avoid models, but not that 1" distance, if it scatters into an enemy unit, doesn't it reduce to landing in that 1" area, thus mishapping?

BT codex states, "you may place the drop pod anywhere on the table as long as it is not in impassable terrain or within 1" of an enemy model."