Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Here is the concept some metagamers have been proposing:

Take an ork unit in a Trukk. Ram a vehcile via tank shock. No matter how the vehicle is destroyed, Ramshackle kicks in which allows Orks to disembark and then they are free to move and shoot as normal.

Here is the argument tree:
*Can a Trukk with a Ram that can tank shock now perform RAMS?
--- No, While Deffrollas can be used in a Ram because a Ram is a tankshock, Rams still require the vehcile to be a tank.
--- Yes, Any vehicle who can Tankshock may now RAM due to the FAQ, except DE raiders who have been explicitly limited.

------*Can A Trukk that moves flat-out in its own movement phase and is destroyed, can the passengers disembark?
--------- No, Moving 'flat-out' prevents disembarking, Ramshackle's MUST disembark doesn't overrule the limit imposed by moving 'flat-out' as they are both resolved equally
--------- Yes, Must disembark overrules 'may not disembark' from 'Flat out'.
--------- Yes, Destroying models only happens with 5-wrecked, in all other situations, models can always be put on the table.

------------*Can models unable to disembark from 'flat-out' use Emergency disembarking?
------------ No, Emergency Disembarking is only used when disembarking is possible but hatches are blocked.
------------ Yes, Emergency Disembarking is used anytime voluntary disembarking is not allowed, models are never destroyed from moving 'Flat-out'.

---------------*Can models That ramshackle out of an Ork trukk while moving 'flat-out'shoot and assault normally?
--------------- No, Kaboom = 6 Exploded and has the same effects and limits.
--------------- Yes, There is no restriction upon them regardless how they left thier transport.

At what point in this long list of 'ifs and buts' does this fall apart... Or do you feel ramshackle rams are the new ork delivery system?

nkelsch wrote:Here is the concept some metagamers have been proposing:

Take an ork unit in a Trukk. Ram a vehcile via tank shock. No matter how the vehicle is destroyed, Ramshackle kicks in which allows Orks to disembark and then they are free to move and shoot as normal.

At what point in this long list of 'ifs and buts' does this fall apart... Or do you feel ramshackle rams are the new ork delivery system?

Errm, what? If a Transport moves, the unit inside is not permitted to move. End of Discussion. Page 67 "If the vehicle has already moved (including pivoting on the spot), the passengers may disembark, but not move any further in that Movement phase." Not To mention, if it moved flat out, they cannot disembark, nor can they Emergency Disembark, so they count as destroyed as well.

So if the Trukk Declares a Ram, it has moved, meaning the unit inside cannot now move, no matter how they disembark.

To Thin your tree:


*Can a Trukk with a Ram that can tank shock now perform RAMS?
--- Yes, Any vehicle who can Tankshock may now RAM due to the FAQ, except DE raiders who have been explicitly limited Even DE Raiders because it's Hip & Cool to use other armies FAQs nowadays </sarcasm>.

------*Can A Trukk that moves flat-out in its own movement phase and is destroyed, can the passengers disembark?
--------- No, Moving 'flat-out' prevents disembarking, Ramshackle's MUST disembark doesn't overrule the limit imposed by moving 'flat-out' as they are both resolved equally

------------*Can models unable to disembark from 'flat-out' use Emergency disembarking?
------------ No, Emergency Disembarking is only used when disembarking is possible but hatches are blocked.

---------------*Can models That ramshackle out of an Ork trukk while moving 'flat-out'shoot and assault normally?
--------------- No, because they cannot even disembark.

I would disagree with your third answer, as disembarking is now irrelevant; the models are on the table after having exited an open-topped transport.

sourclams wrote:I think he means shoot and assault as normal, not move and shoot as normal.

Ah, I see.

I need to lrn2read

Even so, no, they cannot, because they cannot disembark, because the Trukk Went Flat out.

Gwar! wrote:

sourclams wrote:I think he means shoot and assault as normal, not move and shoot as normal.

Ah, I see.

I need to lrn2read

Even so, no, they cannot, because they cannot disembark, because the Trukk Went Flat out.

But can they be placed post-explodes? That's not disembarking.

But that's not a ramshackle option... ignore.

So if you move flat out, and then someone blows up your transport, you're all dead?

I think Gwar!'s got some sketchy interpretation software on that computer of his...

@ Spellbound:

That depends on how you interpret the rule. It says something to the effect of "...flat out in that movement phase..."

One interpretation is that the sentence only applies during the movement phase, meaning if you would fail a DT test, tank shock and get successfully DoG or wreck yourself in a ram, that the unit could not disembark.

The other interpretation is "that movement phase" is supposed to carry over to your next movement phase, meaning that if it gets blown up anytime between when it moves and when your movement phase comes around again, they can't disembark.

Personally, I agree with the first interpretation, but YMMV>

where does it imply that dark eldar or other non tank vehicles can ram and tank shock?

Natfka wrote:where does it imply that dark eldar or other non tank vehicles can ram and tank shock?

Trukks can buy reinforced rams, which allow them to tank shock (and hence ram).
DE have a similar upgrade... torture amps? However the DE faq states that they cannot ram.

By the RAW, passengers cannot disembark (even involuntarily) from a vehicle that moved flat-out in that same movement phase.

That means if a transport Tank Shocks or Rams and was declared to be moving more than 12" and then that vehicle gets wrecked in the same phase, the passengers are all dead.


However, by the RAW an 'explodes' result doesn't use the term 'disembark' to describe placing these models...so by the RAW you get to place the unit, and then it can (assuming it passes the pinning test) move again in the same movement phase (as the unit didn't technically disembark) and can assault, even if the vehicle was closed-topped (again because they didn't 'disembark' from it).


Now, I personally think that last bit is beyond ridiculous and playing that way (that 'explodes' result does not count as them 'disembarking') leads to further RAW issues if you don't have enough space to place all the models if the vehicle is surrounded when it explodes...again you're left without any rules of what to do in that case.


As such, although clearly not the 'RAW', I personally suggest following the ruling we went with in the INAT, and that is to treat passengers being placed from an 'explodes' result as disembarking (i.e. can't be placed within 1" of an enemy and any that can't be placed are destroyed).

However, playing this way does mean that even if a ramming/tank shocking transport moving flat-out 'explodes' its passengers are still destroyed.


And if you play this way, it has a nice way of preventing Ork players from using their Trukks as kamikaze missiles trying to destroy them so as to assault you.


So again, while not RAW (because RAW is insanity on this one), I suggest using the interpretation we went with in the INAT.

yakface wrote:
And if you play this way, it has a nice way of preventing Ork players from using their Trukks as kamikaze missiles trying to destroy them so as to assault you.

But isn't that very much in the spirit of the Orks? Why deny them acting like what seems to be their nature?

Nitewolf wrote:

yakface wrote:
And if you play this way, it has a nice way of preventing Ork players from using their Trukks as kamikaze missiles trying to destroy them so as to assault you.

But isn't that very much in the spirit of the Orks? Why deny them acting like what seems to be their nature?

The true nature of the Orks is to utilize giant gaping holes in the rules in order to assault like 30" in one turn?

Why those dirty-stinkin-no-good Orkses!


But seriously...Orks aren't suicidal, they just like a good fight and there's a big difference between the two.


And let's be clear...this doesn't just apply to Orks. Eldar (or any fast skimmer tank) can attempt to ram their vehicle hoping to 'explode' it so the passengers can then move and assault as the unit didn't 'technically' disembark that turn. This isn't an Ork thing, this is a RAW interpretation that leads to a ludicrous game situation.





Automatically Appended Next Post:


Actually, just noticed that the Ork 'Kaboom!' result says:

"Surviving passengers must disembark and take a Pinning test."

So I take it all back (as far as the Orks are concerned, Eldar and others can still use this RAW loophole though).

Passengers on an Ork Trukk which moves flat-out may not disembark that same movement phase (rulebook pg70), and the Ork 'Kaboom' and 'Kerrunch' results both say that the unit must disembark.

Since they cannot...well the RAW actually doesn't cover this since the only rules for models not being able to disembark being destroyed are in the rules for the 'wrecked' damage result, which this isn't.

So I guess the RAW on the Ork Trukk kamikaze is a big...who knows. The Orks can't disembark and the rules don't tell us what to do with them after that.


So I still suggest injecting some sanity into your game and playing with the INAT ruling...but that's just me.

yakface wrote:Since they cannot...well the RAW actually doesn't cover this since the only rules for models not being able to disembark being destroyed are in the rules for the 'wrecked' damage result, which this isn't.

So I guess the RAW on the Ork Trukk kamikaze is a big...who knows. The Orks can't disembark and the rules don't tell us what to do with them after that.

So I still suggest injecting some sanity into your game and playing with the INAT ruling...but that's just me.

We all know 'sanity' sometimes has no place in competitive events where people are trying to push the envelope to take super effective armies.

The main arguments are:
*Only time models cannot disembark and are destroyed is during 5-wrecked. 6-Explodes uses placement. Ramshackle uses neither.
*Ramshackle uses MUST disembark which being codex, overrules 'may not disembark' from the BRB. Preventive is BRB, Specific mandatory is codex, Codex > BRB.
*Explodes and wrecked in ramshackle are fluff and do not actually impose the limits of 5-wrecked and 6-explodes, especially since Wrecked in 'Kerrrunch!' comes after the orks have already been forced to disembark.
*Regardless how the orks end up on the table from ramshackle, if they pass thier pining test, they disembarked an open-topped transport and are free to shoot and assault as normal.

In tourneys and battle missions where dedicated transports give 0KP, and any ork unit with a 4+ save has a good chance of coming out of this with minimal damage and ready for a fight, It really becomes something I would expect to see a whole list focused around in 'ard boyz or a large event.

Not saying it is not absurd or I agree with it... But since I can't find anything that is concrete, I am at worst in a 4+ rolloff to this tactic.

nkelsch wrote:
*Only time models cannot disembark and are destroyed is during 5-wrecked. 6-Explodes uses placement. Ramshackle uses neither.
*Ramshackle uses MUST disembark which being codex, overrules 'may not disembark' from the BRB. Preventive is BRB, Specific mandatory is codex, Codex > BRB.

Codex does not automatically override the rulebook. As you point out, specific overrides general.

In this case the more general rule is the Ramshackle rule as it applies anytime the vehicle suffers a destroyed result.

The preventive rule in the rulebook applies only in a specific situation...when the vehicle is destroyed in the same phase it moves flat-out.


There is no basis to ignore this rule with the ramshackle rule and therefore Orks may not disembark from a Trukk that moved flat-out in the same movement phase.

Now, as to what happens to them at that point is an issue with the RAW, but it doesn't just apply to the Orks, but to many other game situations.

Ramshackle is not a general rule. It is a specific rule, specifically for ork trukks. Just played a game today at the bunker here in bellevue, one of my trukks went 18", got shot at for a vehicle explodes result. I get a Kerrunch result on my ramshackle roll and get out of the trukk, but can do nothing with the boyz until my next turn, except go to ground I guess if I'm shot at again. I have not found anything that says the ramshackle rule is a general rule to be overriden by another specific rule.

handric wrote:Ramshackle is not a general rule. It is a specific rule, specifically for ork trukks. Just played a game today at the bunker here in bellevue, one of my trukks went 18", got shot at for a vehicle explodes result. I get a Kerrunch result on my ramshackle roll and get out of the trukk, but can do nothing with the boyz until my next turn, except go to ground I guess if I'm shot at again. I have not found anything that says the ramshackle rule is a general rule to be overriden by another specific rule.

Yes, I know Ramshackle is a rule specific to Ork Trukks, but again it is general in that it applies whenever an Ork Trukk suffers a 'destroyed' damage result.

There is a specific instance covered by the rules...when a transport vehicle moves flat-out and is destroyed in the same movement phase. When that occurs, passengers are not allowed to disembark. That rule is more specific than the Ramshackle rule, and as such in that one instance, the passengers are not allowed to disembark.

This does not apply to the situation you described...only if the Trukk is destroyed in the SAME movement phase it moves flat-out in, which is only generally going to happen with a 'death or glory' or failed ram attack.

If you want to get really in depth with the Ramshackle rule, no matter what result you get, the Orks inside disembark from the vehicle. What this means is that even if the trukk explodes, the Orks get out as if they were getting out of the trukk normally. Which also means that if you were to somehow destroy the trukk on your own turn while moving flat out, the Orks inside would die as they cannot disembark when the vehicle moves flat out. Page 41 of the Ork codex:

Under Kaboom! "...Surviving passengers must disembark and take a Pinning test."

Under Kareen! "...Then apply the Kaboom! result above."

Under Kerrunch! "...The Ork passengers take no damage but must immediately disembark."

Added emphasis just to point out the language used. So, to make a long story short (too late), you cannot flat out a trukk, destroy it to get the Orks out and still shoot / assault, as the cannot disembark. But, as I said before, you will always disembark from a trukk regardless of how which Ramshackle result you get.

(Where's the delete button for posts?)

nostromo wrote:They disembark via the RAMSHKACLE result table. And i don't remeber that to have any distance limit ...

No, completely wrong. Ramshakle makes you disembark. Nothing says you ignore the normal rules for Disembarking, so you do not.

Gwar! wrote:

nostromo wrote:They disembark via the RAMSHKACLE result table. And i don't remeber that to have any distance limit ...

No, completely wrong. Ramshakle makes you disembark. Nothing says you ignore the normal rules for Disembarking, so you do not.

Must disembark in codex >> may not disembark in BRB.

nostromo wrote:Must disembark in codex >> may not disembark in BRB.

No, it doesn't. it says they must disembark. It does not say "They must disembark regardless of all other restrictions".

By your logic, models with Fleet can assault after disembarking from a non-stationary, non-open Topped Transport after running, because they can Assault after running.

But where does it say what happens to models if they cannot disembark?

Only under 5-wrecked is it explicitly said that models who cannot disembark are destroyed. Ramshackle doesn't use 5-wrecked so what rule is applied if a unit may not disembark?

Destruction of the non-disembarking unit is implied but not explicitly stated.

nkelsch wrote:But where does it say what happens to models if they cannot disembark?

Only under 5-wrecked is it explicitly said that models who cannot disembark are destroyed. Ramshackle doesn't use 5-wrecked so what rule is applied if a unit may not disembark?

Destruction of the non-disembarking unit is implied but not explicitly stated.

You are absolutely correct, but this is a general issue with the rules, not just with this particular case.

For example, the Ramshackle 'Kaboom' result tells you to disembark the passengers, but what happens if the vehicle is surrounded by enemy models and/or impassable terrain? As you point out, the only rules for disembarking models being destroyed when they're not able to be place is in the 'destroyed - wrecked' vehicle rules, which the ramshackle rules do not necessarily follow.

Or again, if you have a normal vehicle that 'explodes' and you are unable to place all the models within the area of the vehicle (either because there are more passenger models then there was 'area' of the vehicle and the vehicle was surrounded by enemy models when it exploded).


What happens in these situations? We don't know because the rules don't cover it.

This is a problem because the rules for disembarking models not being able to be placed on the table should have been written as a general rule, but clearly the writers didn't have the foresight to consider the wacky implications that could occur if they only included the rules for this in the 'wrecked' section.



So I'll say again, everyone is going to have to come up with some sort of house rules to cover these situations because the RAW simply do not work to cover the different possibilities that can occur.

I personally strongly suggest that everyone treats all models being placed from a destroyed vehicle as if they have disembarked, even those placed from an 'explodes' result and that the rules for models not able to be placed on the table always follow the 'wrecked' rules about them being destroyed, and this is the same way we've ruled in the INAT.

Might be a little late on this post but, if you go by the rules how they are wrote it does not state you move flat out.. at no point does it, as a ork player I rarely need to ram something over 13" "loving the paint" Also it just says at max speed, no name to it what so ever, so Would this be considered "Flat out" when "flat out" is one movement action, and "Ram" is completely different Action? as for the suicide car bomb, I think its a great Idea but it would still follow under how many messed up things the Ork book does allow that shouldn't be normally. So how I would play "never done it before" I would use it if given the chance, but also with the current answers I am seeing blood angels/Eldar ships with their crew dying in 1 or 2 shots on turn 2 due to when I play against a player I get to close and they will risk 1 flat out and With the answers you guys done so far seems a little over powered when used against someone. Also Is there a official rule for this anywhere?

NEcro thread is necro.

If flat out is an opton you must go flat out. If your vehicle is not "fast" then you can never go flat out, so this isnt an issue.

QuackyMcgoober wrote:Might be a little late on this post...

Indeed...