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Can any of your for HQ choicies be from Allies.


1.Grey knight hero

2.Cannoness

3.Inquisitor lord

4.Wolf lord


I don't see anything in the Codex saying no.

sexiest_hero wrote:Can any of your for HQ choicies be from Allies.


1.Grey knight hero

2.Cannoness

3.Inquisitor lord

4.Wolf lord


I don't see anything in the Codex saying no.

And I don't see anything in the codex saying yes.

"Leaders of the Pack" applies ONLY to Space Wolf HQ's. HQ's From Allies take up the "Full" HQ Slot, so you can still have, at most, one allied HQ (and if you do, you then can only take 2 HQ units from Codex: Space Wolves), which is still better than the None they could take in the old codex.

Allies don't fulfill FOC requirements. You have to take Space Wolves HQ first.

Thanks guys, Back to the drawing board I guess :(

Gwar! wrote:

sexiest_hero wrote:Can any of your for HQ choicies be from Allies.


1.Grey knight hero

2.Cannoness

3.Inquisitor lord

4.Wolf lord


I don't see anything in the Codex saying no.

And I don't see anything in the codex saying yes.

"Leaders of the Pack" applies ONLY to Space Wolf HQ's. HQ's From Allies take up the "Full" HQ Slot, so you can still have, at most, one allied HQ (and if you do, you then can only take 2 HQ units from Codex: Space Wolves), which is still better than the None they could take in the old codex.

This is only partially correct - the bolded section would only be correct if it specified that the Allies are counted as a seperate army.

Note that the phrasing doesn't refer to Space Wolves HQs - the exact wording is "In a Space Wolves army, each HQ 'slot' allows you to take up two [sic] HQ choices' - word for word, including the typo. In the Daemonhunters army, it specifies that "Daemonhunters units can be included as allies in... Space Wolves" - they are taken in the army, and therefore can be taken as half an HQ choice, as per "Two HQ choices per 'slot' " bonus. However, the restriction on the number of HQ choices from the Daemonhunter codex stays as-is, so there can still only be one Daemonhunter HQ choice out of four total HQ choices.

So the following is legal:

HQ 1a: Wolf Lord
HQ 1b: Rune Priest

HQ 2a: Bjorn the Fell-Handed
HQ 2b: Grey Knight Hero

However, this is not:

HQ 1a: Wolf Lord
HQ 1b: Rune Priest

HQ 2a: Ordo Malleus Inquisitor Lord
HQ 2b: Grey Knight Hero

That is wrong, plain and simple.

ONLY the SW HQs have the Asterisk pointing to the rule, therefore they are the *only* HQs that applies to.

So no, at most 1 HQ from the allied list, as they take a full slow.

nosferatu1001 wrote:That is wrong, plain and simple.

ONLY the SW HQs have the Asterisk pointing to the rule, therefore they are the *only* HQs that applies to.

So no, at most 1 HQ from the allied list, as they take a full slow.

Thank you for your opinion. Note I quoted the exact phrasing of the rules. Where precisely is the hole in my logic?

The asterisk serves as a reminder of the "Leaders of the Pack" rule. Nowhere does it state that only HQ choices on a page marked with an asterisk can be taken under that rule. As I mentioned earlier, the rule is that each HQ 'slot' in a Space Wolves army can be used for two HQ choices - not that each HQ 'slot' in a Space Wolves army can be used for two Space Wolves HQ choices.

And how are you applying that rule without having permission to apply the rule?

Oh, that's right, the asterisk gives you permission to use the rule. So no, it is not a "reminder" (nice attemtp at dismissing a rule that) but is giving permission for you to USE that rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:And how are you applying that rule without having permission to apply the rule?

Oh, that's right, the asterisk gives you permission to use the rule. So no, it is not a "reminder" (nice attemtp at dismissing a rule that) but is giving permission for you to USE that rule.

So... I need permission to use a rule in my Codex that applies to my army? Surely the rule itself gives me that permission?

Firstly, no HQ choice has an asterisk next to it - the HQ title at the top of the page does.

Secondly, show me where it says that only units marked with an asterisk can make use of that rule.

If you want precedent, And They Shall Know No Fear - it's a special rule that units have, it's listed under the Special Rules section of the book, and most units in the army have it. Leader of the Pack is not a unit special rule, it's a special rule of the Space Wolves army as a whole which affects army selection. No-where does it state that only Space Wolves HQ choices can apply it.

Leader of the pack ... is a rule that HQ with a * have. it lets two HQ* share a slot.

WH and DH HQ do not have this rule. They each take up a full HQ slot.

While a SW HQ* will share with any other HQ, any DH/WH HQ will not share.

Tri wrote:Leader of the pack ... is a rule that HQ with a * have. it lets two HQ* share a slot.

WH and DH HQ do not have this rule. They each take up a full HQ slot.

While a SW HQ* will share with any other HQ, any DH/WH HQ will not share.

Once again, where does it say that only choices with an asterisk can share a slot?

The exact wording in the book is: "In a Space Wolves army, each HQ 'slot' allows you to take up two HQ choices"

The rule states it applies "in a Space Wolves army", and the Allied forces "can be included as allies in... Space Marines, including... Space Wolves"

Where does it state that this only applies to Space Wolves HQ choices?

Aelyn wrote:Once again, where does it say that only choices with an asterisk can share a slot?

Try the actual rules. A Space Wolves Army with Allies is not the same as a Space Wolves army. Technically, including any allies means that even SW HQ's take up the full slot.

In the Space wolves army have HQ*. In DH and WH you have HQ. HQ* have the rule Leader of the pack letting two models take a single HQ slot.

If you take a DH/WH HQ, then that slot is full. Not because the SW HQ* can't share with some one but because the DH/WH HQ does not share.

Gwar! wrote:

Aelyn wrote:Once again, where does it say that only choices with an asterisk can share a slot?

Try the actual rules. A Space Wolves Army with Allies is not the same as a Space Wolves army. Technically, including any allies means that even SW HQ's take up the full slot.

See, the bolded bit is what I disagree with.

It seems the argument comes from what, precisely, Allies are in the rules.

Thing is, "Ally" is not a term precisely defined by the rules. It is a special rule that Witch Hunters and Daemonhunters have. I am specifically referring to the Daemonhunter Ally rules here.

It specifies the units are taken in a Space Wolves army. It specifies a number of rules regarding this - the compulsory units must be taken from the parent list, for example - but does not specify that doing so overrides any existing rules of the Codex it's allying to. Where precisely do you get the impression it does change this from? Please feel free to provide a page reference - if you can show me where precisely you are getting your argument from, I will happily concede the point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tri wrote:In the Space wolves army have HQ*. In DH and WH you have HQ. HQ* have the rule Leader of the pack letting two models take a single HQ slot.

If you take a DH/WH HQ, then that slot is full. Not because the SW HQ* can't share with some one but because the DH/WH HQ does not share.

No, it shows the Force Organisation chart, and has asterisks referring you to Leader of the Pack - a rule telling you that in a Space Wolves army, these slots may each contain two HQ choices. Doesn't say anything about these being Space Wolves HQ choices.

By your argument, it would be impossible to take Allied Daemonhunters, because they don't have ANY HQ* choices.

Aelyn wrote:By your argument, it would be impossible to take Allied Daemonhunters, because they don't have ANY HQ* choices.

No SW have a HQ slot same as every one else, however their HQ choices are HQ* ... giving them the option of doubling up (with another HQ*)

Aelyn - see above.

HQ* igves permission to use the special rule LotP. Nothing else gives you that permission. Can you find it otherwise? Permissive ruleset remember.

Now, when you look at DH/WH, their HQ states "HQ" without the asterisk, therefore THEIR HQ slots do not have the option of taking two in one slot.

THAT is the hole in your logic that you refuse to see.

Or, to illustrate it mathematically:

HQ* = 0.5, HQ = 1

The sum in any HQ slot cannot exceed 1, so

HQ* + HQ = 1.5, which is too much.

Why would you want to do this anyway. It sounds like trying to get a cheap advantage. I am a longtime SW player and the new Codex, is solid. I wouldn't want to lose one (God forbid 2) of my HQ choices for a DH/WH HQ.

Also, when people use the allies rule, I personally think it should sorta match fluffwise. SW and Inquisition do not really get along that well, IIRC. So, it isn't all that cool (to me at least) to have them join forces. Which means someone is likely trying to cheese something together. Which is uncool.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Aelyn - see above.

HQ* igves permission to use the special rule LotP. Nothing else gives you that permission. Can you find it otherwise? Permissive ruleset remember.

How about in the Leaders of the Pack rule, which states it applies to the Space Wolves army, NOT that it applies to Space Wolves HQ choices?

Believe me, if it stated that you could take two Space Wolves HQ choices in one "slot", I would completely agree with you. But that's not what it says.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Now, when you look at DH/WH, their HQ states "HQ" without the asterisk, therefore THEIR HQ slots do not have the option of taking two in one slot.

THAT is the hole in your logic that you refuse to see.

Tell me where it states that only HQ choices marked with an asterisk can be used in this way.

The rule states that in a Space Wolves army, each HQ 'slot' can be used for up to two HQ choices - not up to two HQ* choices, up to two HQ choices. This is reaffirmed later when it states that in a Space Wolves army, you may have one, two, three or four HQ choices - again, not HQ*, HQ.

The asterisk at the top of the page is a pointer to remind you of that rule, so when building the list, you might see 'HQ*' at the top of the page, go "Hm, why's that asterisk there?", turn back, and say "Ah yes, Space Wolves have Leaders of the Pack. I have double the usual HQ allowance."

I understand what you're trying to say, but the fact is you're trying to attach significance to an asterisk that has no defined meaning.

jw7007 - I don't know why people would do this, but it is an option so I felt it was important to point out that under RAW, there is significant reason to believe you can quad-HQ with an Allied HQ, and no real evidence against.

Why are you reading a rule you have no permission to do so?

Note: you cannot say the rule itself gives you poermission to read the rule, as that is nonsensical.

The asterisk has a defined meaning (when used in text in this way) in the english language, and oddly enough is doing exactly this within the rulebook. dismissing it as a reminder is...not supported.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Why are you reading a rule you have no permission to do so?

Note: you cannot say the rule itself gives you poermission to read the rule, as that is nonsensical.

The asterisk has a defined meaning (when used in text in this way) in the english language, and oddly enough is doing exactly this within the rulebook. dismissing it as a reminder is...not supported.

I am reading the rule because it is explicitly in the Army Selection part of the Codex.

Read the rule. Does the rule make any reference whatsoever to the HQ slots that can double up having to be HQ*?

And you're right, the asterisk does have a defined usage - it acts as a way to point you to other relevant information. It does not mean that the information applies only to the asterisked item, however.

Aelyn wrote:Read the rule. Does the rule make any reference whatsoever to the HQ slots that can double up having to be HQ*?

Let pause a second ....
...Lets look at the FOC are those slots HQ or HQ*? HQ so that means the SW take up HQ slots.
...However the HQ choices are all HQ*, what does the star mean? *Leader of the pack,each HQ 'slot' allows lets you take up to two HQ choices.
...So what happens if you take a Allied HQ? This HQ will take up a HQ slot on the FOC as normal.
...Could you then add a SW HQ*? No, the slot is full the DH/WH HQ has no option to share.

Personally i wish the rules had been written the same way as they had on chaos Daemons.

Tri wrote:

Aelyn wrote:Read the rule. Does the rule make any reference whatsoever to the HQ slots that can double up having to be HQ*?

Let pause a second ....
...Lets look at the FOC are those slots HQ or HQ*? HQ so that means the SW take up HQ slots.
...However the HQ choices are all HQ*, what does the star mean? *Leader of the pack,each HQ 'slot' allows lets you take up to two HQ choices.
...So what happens if you take a Allied HQ? This HQ will take up a HQ slot on the FOC as normal.
...Could you then add a SW HQ*? No, the slot is full the DH/WH HQ has no option to share.

Personally i wish the rules had been written the same way as they had on chaos Daemons.

*sigh*

One more time...

Leaders of the Pack is not a unit special rule in the same way that, for example, And They Shall Know No Fear is. If it was, you would be perfectly correct.

However, it is a rule that affects the way the army is selected.

The point of the asterisk is to bring your attention to LotP when you're building lists. It is, however, in the Army Selection rules. The DH does not need an option to share - it's there, in black and white, affecting the Space Wolves army selection. If you can find any evidence whatsoever that the asterisk is required for the choice to be able to apply LotP, as opposed to alerting you that LotP affects army selection, please present it. At the moment, you are providing none.

Note that in the listed FOC (as opposed to the graphical), it has the HQ slots starred as well. These are the same HQ slots that the Allies are going into - so even if the issue is that only starred HQ slots can be LotP'd, it would still work, as the DH HQs are being taken in a starred HQ slot.

Had the rules stated that two Space Wolves HQ choices may be taken in a single slot, you would be correct. This is how the Daemon rule works - it specifies that Heralds can be taken two to a slot.

However, LotP means that in a Space Wolves army, each HQ slot can contain two HQ choices. And the Allies are taken in the Space Wolves army. Ergo, you can fill one slot with a Rune Priest and a Grey Knight Grand Master, as that is two HQ choices being taken in the Space Wolves army.

You will note that I have bolded two particular lines in your argument. This is because an Allied HQ does not take up an HQ "slot", it takes up an HQ "choice" (Codex Daemonhunters, p.21, "Using Daemonhunters as Allies"). By your own argument there, because SW can take two HQ choices for each slot and each DH HQ takes up an HQ choice, LotP applies to Allies as well as the Pups themselves.

I agree that it would have been better if the rules had been written in the same way as the Daemons - it's no skin off my nose either way, as I don't use Allies and have no intention to start. However, they were written differently, and this question has therefore brought up an interesting question, and it is useful to be able to determine the truth of the matter - if only for the OP.

Finally, Gwar! - I'm still waiting for you to present evidence for your argument that taking DH as allies in a Space Wolves army means it is no longer a Space Wolves army.

Aelyn wrote:Finally, Gwar! - I'm still waiting for you to present evidence for your argument that taking DH as allies in a Space Wolves army means it is no longer a Space Wolves army.

I Take an Apple.

Now I take an Apple with another Apple Sewn onto it.

Are they both the same?

Gwar! wrote:

Aelyn wrote:Finally, Gwar! - I'm still waiting for you to present evidence for your argument that taking DH as allies in a Space Wolves army means it is no longer a Space Wolves army.

I Take an Apple.

Now I take an Apple with another Apple Sewn onto it.

Are they both the same?

That's irrelevant, as the Codex: Apples and the appropriate FAQ do not apply to the Space Wolves

Seriously though, I made my point earlier - it states in the DH codex that the options are taken as allies IN the parent army. It does not say anywhere that it overwrites previous rules, nor that it changes the nature of the army. Can you provide any evidence that it does?

Aelyn wrote: Can you provide any evidence that it does?

No, because my proof is inherent to the English Language, which you seem to be determined to ignore.

Gwar! wrote:

Aelyn wrote: Can you provide any evidence that it does?

No, because my proof is inherent to the English Language, which you seem to be determined to ignore.

I have a Space Wolves army.

I have taken Long Fangs in my army.

Does that make it a Space Wolves with Long Fangs army, and therefore no longer able to make use of LotP?

Now compare:

I have a Space Wolves army.

I have taken Daemonhunter Allies in my army.

Does that make it a Space Wolves with Daemonhunter Allies army, and therefore no longer able to make use of LotP?

If the Daemonhunter Ally rules stated they were taken "alongside" or "in addition to" the parent army, or if it said anything about this affecting special rules, you would be right. However, the allied units are taken "in" the Space Wolves army, and in no way does it imply this changes the nature of the parent army.

Even if that were true (it isn't) SW do not have any HQ's, they Have HQ*, which are permitted to be taken 2 to a single HQ slot.

A DH/WH HQ is not an HQ*, nor do you have any reason to suspect it is a HQ*, so they take up the full HQ slot.

Gwar! wrote:Even if that were true (it isn't) SW do not have any HQ's, they Have HQ*, which are permitted to be taken 2 to a single HQ slot.

A DH/WH HQ is not an HQ*, nor do you have any reason to suspect it is a HQ*, so they take up the full HQ slot.

I have already refuted that argument repeatedly above. LotP is not an inherent property of Space Wolves HQ choices, it is an inherent property of the Space Wolves army. What's more, the FoC does actually specify HQ* slots (therefore linkng the slots themselves to LotP, by most of the arguments in this thread), and then states the army can contain two HQ choices - which is what the Daemonhunter HQs are - to each slot.

Aelyn wrote:it is an inherent property of the Space Wolves army

Which is not the same as a Space Wolves army with Allies.