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Gwar! wrote:

Aelyn wrote:it is an inherent property of the Space Wolves army

Which is not the same as a Space Wolves army with Allies.

Evidence? Reference? Nowhere in either Codex nor the Rulebook does it state that taking allies as part of an army alters the army you are using. It also specifies in the Daemonhunter Codex that the choices are taken "in" the parent army.

I would say that there is no reason that a Space Wolves army with allies is not exactly as much a Space Wolves army as a Space Wolves army with Fenrisian Wolves.

Aelyn were any one to pull this rubbish on me i would not allow them to take any HQ from DH/WH since none of those are type HQ*.

I am willing to bend the rules and correct for GW and let a HQ from DH/WH to be add, taking up a full HQ slot. That is because i can see that FOC (yes the picture, theres a reason they're called charts) they are HQ, and the option is taking HQ* to fill them.

Tri wrote:Aelyn were any one to pull this rubbish on me i would not allow them to take any HQ from DH/WH since none of those are type HQ*.

I am willing to bend the rules and correct for GW and let a HQ from DH/WH to be add, taking up a full HQ slot. That is because i can see that FOC (yes the picture) they are HQ, and the option is taking HQ* to fill them.

And what about the list beneath, which states that the compulsory is 1 HQ*, 2 Troops, and the optional is 1 HQ*, 4 Troops, 3 Elite, 3 Fast Attack, 3 Heavy Support?

Or are you arguing that only the visual representation of the FoC is valid, and the list that accompanies it is irrelevant?

Aelyn wrote:Seriously though, I made my point earlier - it states in the DH codex that the options are taken as allies IN the parent army. It does not say anywhere that it overwrites previous rules, nor that it changes the nature of the army. Can you provide any evidence that it does?

It changes the nature from a pure SW army to a SW army with allies. Pretty obvious really.

Aelyn wrote:

Tri wrote:Aelyn were any one to pull this rubbish on me i would not allow them to take any HQ from DH/WH since none of those are type HQ*.

I am willing to bend the rules and correct for GW and let a HQ from DH/WH to be add, taking up a full HQ slot. That is because i can see that FOC (yes the picture) they are HQ, and the option is taking HQ* to fill them.

And what about the list beneath, which states that the compulsory is 1 HQ*, 2 Troops, and the optional is 1 HQ*, 4 Troops, 3 Elite, 3 Fast Attack, 3 Heavy Support?

Or are you arguing that only the visual representation of the FoC is valid, and the list that accompanies it is irrelevant?

yes you a HQ slot and are able to fill it with the following 1 compulsary HQ* and 1 optional HQ*

Nitewolf wrote:

Aelyn wrote:Seriously though, I made my point earlier - it states in the DH codex that the options are taken as allies IN the parent army. It does not say anywhere that it overwrites previous rules, nor that it changes the nature of the army. Can you provide any evidence that it does?

It changes the nature from a pure SW army to a SW army with allies. Pretty obvious really.

As I have stated repeatedly, there is nothing in RAW to say that taking allies changes the nature of the army. A Space Wolves army with allies is a Space Wolves army, just as a Space Wolves army with Fenrisian Wolves is a Space Wolves army.

"Pretty obvious really" is not a RAW argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tri wrote:

Aelyn wrote:

Tri wrote:Aelyn were any one to pull this rubbish on me i would not allow them to take any HQ from DH/WH since none of those are type HQ*.

I am willing to bend the rules and correct for GW and let a HQ from DH/WH to be add, taking up a full HQ slot. That is because i can see that FOC (yes the picture) they are HQ, and the option is taking HQ* to fill them.

And what about the list beneath, which states that the compulsory is 1 HQ*, 2 Troops, and the optional is 1 HQ*, 4 Troops, 3 Elite, 3 Fast Attack, 3 Heavy Support?

Or are you arguing that only the visual representation of the FoC is valid, and the list that accompanies it is irrelevant?

yes you a HQ slot and are able to fill it with the following 1 compulsary HQ* and 1 optional HQ*

So it appears you're now arguing the graphical FoC and the written FoC contradict each other? That by the listed one, only two HQ choices can be taken?

The Force Organisation Chart, listed under the graphical representation, has two HQ* slots - leaving aside the argument that the * is not actually a part of the name of the slot - and has rules immediately underneath stating those two slots can be filled with two HQ choices each. It does NOT say that they can be filled with two HQ* choices each.

Aelyn wrote:

Tri wrote:

Aelyn wrote:

Tri wrote:Aelyn were any one to pull this rubbish on me i would not allow them to take any HQ from DH/WH since none of those are type HQ*.

I am willing to bend the rules and correct for GW and let a HQ from DH/WH to be add, taking up a full HQ slot. That is because i can see that FOC (yes the picture) they are HQ, and the option is taking HQ* to fill them.

And what about the list beneath, which states that the compulsory is 1 HQ*, 2 Troops, and the optional is 1 HQ*, 4 Troops, 3 Elite, 3 Fast Attack, 3 Heavy Support?

Or are you arguing that only the visual representation of the FoC is valid, and the list that accompanies it is irrelevant?

yes you a HQ slot and are able to fill it with the following 1 compulsary HQ* and 1 optional HQ*

So it appears you're now arguing the graphical FoC and the written FoC contradict each other? That by the listed one, only two HQ choices can be taken?

The Force Organisation Chart, listed under the graphical representation, has two HQ* slots - leaving aside the argument that the * is not actually a part of the name of the slot - and has rules immediately underneath stating those two slots can be filled with two HQ choices each. It does NOT say that they can be filled with two HQ* choices each.

No contradiction. One is the slot on the FOC (hole) and the other is the choice you make (peg).

Aelyn wrote:

Nitewolf wrote:

Aelyn wrote:Seriously though, I made my point earlier - it states in the DH codex that the options are taken as allies IN the parent army. It does not say anywhere that it overwrites previous rules, nor that it changes the nature of the army. Can you provide any evidence that it does?

It changes the nature from a pure SW army to a SW army with allies. Pretty obvious really.

As I have stated repeatedly, there is nothing in RAW to say that taking allies changes the nature of the army. A Space Wolves army with allies is a Space Wolves army, just as a Space Wolves army with Fenrisian Wolves is a Space Wolves army.

"Pretty obvious really" is not a RAW argument.

So what you're saying is allies become SW as soon as they are picked for a mainly SW force? Interesting concept.

Tri wrote:

Aelyn wrote:

Tri wrote:

Aelyn wrote:

Tri wrote:Aelyn were any one to pull this rubbish on me i would not allow them to take any HQ from DH/WH since none of those are type HQ*.

I am willing to bend the rules and correct for GW and let a HQ from DH/WH to be add, taking up a full HQ slot. That is because i can see that FOC (yes the picture) they are HQ, and the option is taking HQ* to fill them.

And what about the list beneath, which states that the compulsory is 1 HQ*, 2 Troops, and the optional is 1 HQ*, 4 Troops, 3 Elite, 3 Fast Attack, 3 Heavy Support?

Or are you arguing that only the visual representation of the FoC is valid, and the list that accompanies it is irrelevant?

yes you a HQ slot and are able to fill it with the following 1 compulsary HQ* and 1 optional HQ*

So it appears you're now arguing the graphical FoC and the written FoC contradict each other? That by the listed one, only two HQ choices can be taken?

The Force Organisation Chart, listed under the graphical representation, has two HQ* slots - leaving aside the argument that the * is not actually a part of the name of the slot - and has rules immediately underneath stating those two slots can be filled with two HQ choices each. It does NOT say that they can be filled with two HQ* choices each.

No contradiction. One is the slot on the FOC (hole) and the other is the choice you make (peg).

I think you misunderstood me. Either that or I misunderstood this:

Tri wrote:yes you a HQ slot and are able to fill it with the following 1 compulsary HQ* and 1 optional HQ*

Which is quite possible.

My point is that on the listed FoC, it does not refer to HQ slots - it refers to one compulsory HQ* and one optional HQ*, along with the normal two compulsory Troops, four optional Troops, three Elite, three Fast Attack and three Heavy Support.

It's not about the methods you can use to fill them, it's that the graphical representation has HQ slots while the written representation has two HQ* slots. It seems obvious to me that this is because the asterisk is merely there to remind you of the army-wide Leaders of the Pack rule, not because the rules make any distinction between HQ and HQ*. Because the asterisk is not part of the choice's title, it is merely there to draw your attention to the Leaders of the Pack rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nitewolf wrote:

Aelyn wrote:

Nitewolf wrote:

Aelyn wrote:Seriously though, I made my point earlier - it states in the DH codex that the options are taken as allies IN the parent army. It does not say anywhere that it overwrites previous rules, nor that it changes the nature of the army. Can you provide any evidence that it does?

It changes the nature from a pure SW army to a SW army with allies. Pretty obvious really.

As I have stated repeatedly, there is nothing in RAW to say that taking allies changes the nature of the army. A Space Wolves army with allies is a Space Wolves army, just as a Space Wolves army with Fenrisian Wolves is a Space Wolves army.

"Pretty obvious really" is not a RAW argument.

So what you're saying is allies become SW as soon as they are picked for a mainly SW force? Interesting concept.

No, what I'm saying is the fact that allies are included does not preclude the army as a whole from being a Space Wolves army. Please don't misrepresent what I am saying in an attempt to strawman me.

Holy Sh*T acording to that I can take warriors with Flamers/Meltas/Multi meltas on an Inquisitor with a free master crafted stun locking T-Hammer with vulkan and have them be twin linked!

See where I'm going with this?

So you believe that an army not entirely picked from Codex: Space Wolves is still a Space wolves army?

really?

English disagrees with you on this, quite strongly. You have also not "refuted" anything - you have disagreed, the two are not the same.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Holy Sh*T acording to that I can take warriors with Flamers/Meltas/Multi meltas on an Inquisitor with a free master crafted stun locking T-Hammer with vulkan and have them be twin linked!

See where I'm going with this?

I don't see why the Thunder Hammer would be free (unless you mean the Master-Crafted "upgrade"), but aside from that... Yes, the RAW is that all melta, flamer etc weaponry in an army with Vulkan ia twin-linked and all Thunder Hammers are Master-Crafted. They are all in the same army.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So you believe that an army not entirely picked from Codex: Space Wolves is still a Space wolves army?

really?

Yes, I do, because it states in the Daemonhunter Codex that the allies are taken IN the parent army - in other words, IN the Space Wolves army.

I take it then that you feel I can have a unit in my army but not as a part of my army?

Aelyn wrote:I take it then that you feel I can have a unit in my army but not as a part of my army?

Yes, you can. For example, Vulkan He'stan and Sisters of Battle.

Aelyn wrote:
No, what I'm saying is the fact that allies are included does not preclude the army as a whole from being a Space Wolves army. Please don't misrepresent what I am saying in an attempt to strawman me.

About RAW, it states you choose your army from one codex, where in the SW codex can I find the DH units? Because I have looked and can't see them anywhere. So since RAW requires an exception to include allies it does treat the two kinds different. And I did not alter what you said, according to you an army with DH units is still only an SW army. That requires the DH to suddenly become SW.

Gwar! wrote:

Aelyn wrote:I take it then that you feel I can have a unit in my army but not as a part of my army?

Yes, you can. For example, Vulkan He'stan and Sisters of Battle.

Well, I don't have the Witch Hunters Codex myself, but if the terminology is the same for Witch Hunters as for Daemonhunters and it hasn't been errata'd, then yes, they are part of the same army.

Unless you can provide me with a REFERENCE that says otherwise, rather than a purely semantic argument, as - unlike some people arguing this point - I have actually provided rules, as written, and page references.

Nitewolf wrote:

Aelyn wrote:
No, what I'm saying is the fact that allies are included does not preclude the army as a whole from being a Space Wolves army. Please don't misrepresent what I am saying in an attempt to strawman me.

About RAW, it states you choose your army from one codex, where in the SW codex can I find the DH units? Because I have looked and can't see them anywhere. So since RAW requires an exception to include allies it does treat the two kinds different. And I did not alter what you said, according to you an army with DH units is still only an SW army. That requires the DH to suddenly become SW.

Reference please? It states the best way is to use the "full army lists in the relevant Codex book for each army" (p.86, Force Organisation) but as everyone knows, the rules in the most recent Codex for any given army supercede those of the Rulebook where they would otherwise contradict, so the rules in the Daemonhunter Codex that allow me to take Daemonhunter units in my Space Wolves army is what takes precedence.

Gwar! wrote:Even if that were true (it isn't) SW do not have any HQ's, they Have HQ*, which are permitted to be taken 2 to a single HQ slot.

A DH/WH HQ is not an HQ*, nor do you have any reason to suspect it is a HQ*, so they take up the full HQ slot.

Then LotP does nothing for Space Wolves, because it allows up to two "HQ" choices to take up each "HQ" slot, yet Space Wolves do not have "HQ" choices OR "HQ" slots, they have "HQ*" choices and "HQ*" slots

slippery slope is slippery.

I will go with what appears to be most RAW, even if it seems counter-intuitive, and that is that Space Wolves with allies can still take 4 HQ choices, regardless of what allies are taken.

Aelyn wrote:
Reference please? It states the best way is to use the "full army lists in the relevant Codex book for each army" (p.86, Force Organisation) but as everyone knows, the rules in the most recent Codex for any given army supercede those of the Rulebook where they would otherwise contradict, so the rules in the Daemonhunter Codex that allow me to take Daemonhunter units in my Space Wolves army is what takes precedence.

First of, I never implied it's prohibited to pick DH as allies, since it is allowed in the DH codex. So I seriously don't get where you're going with the superseding bit. However, the point I made (which you either failed to notice or simply ignored) was that you're claiming it's a pure SW army, yet pick things from a different codex. Oh and nice of you to cut out the part of the sentence on p.86 where it clarifies beginners may use all models they have instead of a relevant codex book.
Either way, I wish you good luck with trying to play that way and for your sake I hope you'll meet mostly opponents with a very limited understanding of the English language.

Aelyn wrote:Seriously though, I made my point earlier - it states in the DH codex that the options are taken as allies IN the parent army. It does not say anywhere that it overwrites previous rules, nor that it changes the nature of the army. Can you provide any evidence that it does?

This is where your argument:
A)Changed
and
B)fell apart

Page 21 of the Daemonhunters codex: "Any compulsory choices {sic} must be fulfilled from the 'parent' list and not the daemonhunters list"

they are clearly 2 armies in one FOC, the second(daemonhunters) not requiring(or allowing) the compulsory choices.

This is also your page# and Quote refuting your argument.

Nitewolf wrote:

Aelyn wrote:
Reference please? It states the best way is to use the "full army lists in the relevant Codex book for each army" (p.86, Force Organisation) but as everyone knows, the rules in the most recent Codex for any given army supercede those of the Rulebook where they would otherwise contradict, so the rules in the Daemonhunter Codex that allow me to take Daemonhunter units in my Space Wolves army is what takes precedence.

First of, I never implied it's prohibited to pick DH as allies, since it is allowed in the DH codex. So I seriously don't get where you're going with the superseding bit. However, the point I made (which you either failed to notice or simply ignored) was that you're claiming it's a pure SW army, yet pick things from a different codex. Oh and nice of you to cut out the part of the sentence on p.86 where it clarifies beginners may use all models they have instead of a relevant codex book.
Either way, I wish you good luck with trying to play that way and for your sake I hope you'll meet mostly opponents with a very limited understanding of the English language.

For the record, I never once claimed it was a pure Space Wolves army - I stated that the fact it included Allies did not overwrite the fact that it was still a Space Wolves army, because the Daemonhunters Codex explicitly allows me to take Daemonhunter units in my Space Wolves army, albeit with a few additional restrictions. None of those restrictions affect any special army selection rules in the 'parent' Codex.

The bit that was superceded is the implication in the Rulebook that each army has only one Codex.

I cut out the bit about beginners because, frankly, it's irrelevant here. Should I also have quoted the To Hit table for shooting?

Oh, and there's no chance of this argument cropping up in any of my games - as stated earlier, I don't actually use Allies.

Kommissar Kel wrote:This is where your argument:
A)Changed
and
B)fell apart

Page 21 of the Daemonhunters codex: "Any compulsory choices {sic} must be fulfilled from the 'parent' list and not the daemonhunters list"

they are clearly 2 armies in one FOC, the second(daemonhunters) not requiring(or allowing) the compulsory choices.

This is also your page# and Quote refuting your argument.

Nope. Read it again - it states that their are two lists, not armies. It does also specify that the Daemonhunters are taken in the Space Wolves army, which is the entire basis of my assertation that they are part of the Space Wolves army I have taken. This is my stance, and it has never changed - I believe I mentioned this exact point earlier on.

Without access to the Leader of the pack rule they cannot share a HQ slot. Space wolves HQ all have access as shown by the * after HQ.

Could you add SW HQ to a DH or WH HQ? Maybe. I would say with extremely selective reading you could say yes.

Could you take 2 (one from WH one from DH)? No You must take one SW HQ first and with out a rule for adding a DH/WH HQ to another HQ choice you cannot add them to the HQ choice you've already taken.

==============

not the Dakka likes these but i feel you need to have a quote

Asterisk
An asterisk is the sign *. It is used especially to indicate that there is further information about something in another part of the text.

Tri wrote:Without access to the Leader of the pack rule they cannot share a HQ slot. Space wolves HQ all have access as shown by the * after HQ.

Could you add SW HQ to a DH or WH HQ? Maybe. I would say with extremely selective reading you could say yes.

Could you take 2 (one from WH one from DH)? No You must take one SW HQ first and with out a rule for adding a DH/WH HQ to another HQ choice you cannot add them to the HQ choice you've already taken.

Okay, now you're just rehashing old arguments I have already answered on a number of occasions.

The Leader of the Pack rule applies to the Space Wolves army, not to Space Wolves HQ units specifically. It allows you to take two HQ choices for every HQ slot in the army. I want to take a Grey Knight Grand Master as one of my HQ choices, as per the Daemonhunter Codex. I want to take this in the Optional HQ slot in the Force Organisation chart. Per the Leader of the Pack rule, I can have two HQ choices in that slot, so I also want to take a Rune Priest in that slot. Even if the asterisk was necessary for this to be legal, the Optional HQ slot in the Force Organisation Chart listed beneath the graphic is asterisked, and therefore Leader of the Pack can be used with that slot.

What in that paragraph do you claim breaks RAW?

Tri wrote:Asterisk
An asterisk is the sign *. It is used especially to indicate that there is further information about something in another part of the text.

Exactly. The asterisk indicates there is more to HQ selection in a Space Wolves army than in most - specifically, the Leader of the Pack rule, which allows two HQ choices to be taken in one HQ slot. I can see the asterisk next to the Optional HQ slot in the listed FoC, and therefore am applying the Leader of the Pack rule to that slot, filling it with a Rune Priest and a Grey Knight Grand Master.

LotP applies to those that have permission to use the rule.

Those would be the units with HQ* in their heading, as no other unit is given as having this rule. Does the GKGM have an "*" next to the FOC selection? No? Then they cannot use the rule.

An army not selected from within the SW codex is *not* a Space wolf army any longer - that is plain, simple and straightforward English. It is a SW army *with additions frmo another codex*

I think the asterisk is a red herring arguement here.

if the asterisk really was an issue then LotP does nothing at all for the entire Space Wolves army, as LotP applies to HQ choices and HQ slots, not HQ* choices and HQ* slots.

Aterisk: n.
A star-shaped figure (*) used chiefly to indicate an omission, a reference to a footnote, or an unattested word, sound, or affix.

all the asterisk is is a reference to a footnote about the Space Wolves Army. I dont use allies at all, I dont think its fluffly-and that annoys me- but I recognize the arguement on either side, and If I was a tourney organizer I would allow it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:LotP applies to those that have permission to use the rule.

Those would be the units with HQ* in their heading, as no other unit is given as having this rule. Does the GKGM have an "*" next to the FOC selection? No? Then they cannot use the rule.

This is something that I consider to be flat-out wrong - whilst I don't believe the asterisk to be necessary in any sense, you still haven't answered my counterpoint that the asterisk in the written FOC indicates that even if it is necessary, it applies automatically to those slots in the FOC, without even needing to consider the units.

nosferatu1001 wrote:An army not selected from within the SW codex is *not* a Space wolf army any longer - that is plain, simple and straightforward English. It is a SW army *with additions frmo another codex*

Whilst I disagree with this, there is nothing explicit in the rules either way indicating that taking allied units from Daemonhunters does or does not stop a Space Wolves army from qualifying as a Space Wolves army.

This point seems to be the sticking point, and it is turning this from a debate into an argument. I may believe your perspective is wrong, but I am willing to say this is something RAW does not cover, and leave it with both of us being neither correct nor wrong. Are you happy to do that to stop this argument devolving?

Of course, putting forth new arguments would be another matter entirely, but we're basically just repeating ourselves at this point, and that is destined to be fruitless.

RAW is not, and cannot be in 40k, inclusive - there is no glossary of terms.

So accepted usage tells you that a "SW army" is something from the SW codex.

When you add something from another codex, it is no longer, by definition, a SW army - it is an army that is SW *and* something else. the something else is what clinches it.

Demogerg wrote:I think the asterisk is a red herring arguement here.

if the asterisk really was an issue then LotP does nothing at all for the entire Space Wolves army, as LotP applies to HQ choices and HQ slots, not HQ* choices and HQ* slots.

Aterisk: n.
A star-shaped figure (*) used chiefly to indicate an omission, a reference to a footnote, or an unattested word, sound, or affix.

all the asterisk is is a reference to a footnote about the Space Wolves Army. I dont use allies at all, I dont think its fluffly-and that annoys me- but I recognize the arguement on either side, and If I was a tourney organizer I would allow it.

Have you read the rule? It starts *The leaders of the pack .... this means it is called into use any time you see "something*". So it would be called into use if you take a SW HQ* but at no other time.

Tri wrote:Have you read the rule? It starts *The leaders of the pack .... this means it is called into use any time you see "something*". So it would be called into use if you take a SW HQ* but at no other time.

What about the HQ* as shown on the Force Organisation Chart? I'm taking the Daemonhunter HQ choice from a slot on the chart that has the asterisk. By your own argument, doesn't that mean the LotP rule applies to that slot, and therefore that slot can be used for two HQ choices?

nosferatu1001 wrote:RAW is not, and cannot be in 40k, inclusive - there is no glossary of terms.

So accepted usage tells you that a "SW army" is something from the SW codex.

When you add something from another codex, it is no longer, by definition, a SW army - it is an army that is SW *and* something else. the something else is what clinches it.

See, that's "Accepted usage", as you put it. Thing is, accepted usage varies from one place to another.

Everyone I know IRL who has debated the matter considers the 'parent list' to be the army type - so a Space Wolves army with allies is still a Space Wolves army.

As you agree there is no RAW to state this one way or the other, will you agree that this is an argument neither of us can possibly win, or lose, because the answer is not defined?

Tri wrote:

Demogerg wrote:I think the asterisk is a red herring arguement here.

if the asterisk really was an issue then LotP does nothing at all for the entire Space Wolves army, as LotP applies to HQ choices and HQ slots, not HQ* choices and HQ* slots.

Aterisk: n.
A star-shaped figure (*) used chiefly to indicate an omission, a reference to a footnote, or an unattested word, sound, or affix.

all the asterisk is is a reference to a footnote about the Space Wolves Army. I dont use allies at all, I dont think its fluffly-and that annoys me- but I recognize the arguement on either side, and If I was a tourney organizer I would allow it.

Have you read the rule? It starts *The leaders of the pack .... this means it is called into use any time you see "something*". So it would be called into use if you take a SW HQ* but at no other time.

So you can read the rule heading, but what about the body?

"In a Space Wolves army, each HQ 'slot' [note, its not "each HQ* 'slot'", and if you look just above that, Space Wolves do not have an "HQ" slot, they have an "HQ*" slot] allows you to take up to two HQ choices." [note, its not "two HQ* choices", and if you flip through the book, there are no "HQ" choices, only "HQ*" choices]

Aelyn - except that *is* the RAW, as you seem to believe the rules can be read in a vacuum, i.e. free of the language they are in. This is patently false - if it is true, please show me the "in game" definition of "the". and "a" while you're at it. If you cannot do so then you have confirmed that the game is not inclusive.

Everyone I know knows that a combined army is not the same as an army picked from one codex. Happily the language agrees with this opinion, and therefore it is correct.

Demogerg wrote:

Tri wrote:

Demogerg wrote:I think the asterisk is a red herring arguement here.

if the asterisk really was an issue then LotP does nothing at all for the entire Space Wolves army, as LotP applies to HQ choices and HQ slots, not HQ* choices and HQ* slots.

Aterisk: n.
A star-shaped figure (*) used chiefly to indicate an omission, a reference to a footnote, or an unattested word, sound, or affix.

all the asterisk is is a reference to a footnote about the Space Wolves Army. I dont use allies at all, I dont think its fluffly-and that annoys me- but I recognize the arguement on either side, and If I was a tourney organizer I would allow it.

Have you read the rule? It starts *The leaders of the pack .... this means it is called into use any time you see "something*". So it would be called into use if you take a SW HQ* but at no other time.

So you can read the rule heading, but what about the body?

"In a Space Wolves army, each HQ 'slot' [note, its not "each HQ* 'slot'", and if you look just above that, Space Wolves do not have an "HQ" slot, they have an "HQ*" slot] allows you to take up to two HQ choices." [note, its not "two HQ* choices", and if you flip through the book, there are no "HQ" choices, only "HQ*" choices]

correct however to use this rule you must have a HQ* which is the same as a HQ but with the Leader of the pack rule attached. DH/WH HQ choices do not come with this rule attached so they cannot share a HQ slot with another HQ.