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i really would be hard pressed to not have at least one CCS in all of my lists. but i was reading the "discussion" here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/280882.page -about Techpriests and priests as hq choices. what are the bennefits of going without a CCS? possibly saving points are the only upside i can see. i know that running Mech, i don't use the orders as much as if i were footslogging. but the ability to have 4 vets toting meltas is just too good to pass up.
anyone out there forgo the CCS for something different? what do you use? how well does it work for you?

Everyone uses a CCS then?

Right now I run my mechvets with a CCS but I have been pondering switching it out for a different HQ. I wouldn't go with a techpriest or a priest as my HQ even if I could, and I doubt I would use a PP because . . . well just because. I have been thinking of running a Lord Commissar though. I get annoyed with my CCS because like you said, I rarely have squads that are dismounted, within the command range of the CCS AND in range of the enemy. The LC can ride around with one of my melta vet squads in a Vendetta, who are likely to get out at some point, he can then provide some CC support. On the other hand the CCS lets me take up to 4 extra special weapons and if someone starts popping my Chimeras the orders can come in handy.

and to be clear, i'd never try to run a Techpriest/ Priest either. i don't think they fulfill the HQ requirements(not to go too OT). the problem i see with a Lord Commissar is points. you get the CCS for 20 base points cheaper. and the 4 Special weapons are just a steal. even though my CCS isn't issuing orders, having a 1/2 Vet squad with 1 more Melta running around is just too good to drop, IMHO.

My new I.G variant army will be using techpriests, along with their servitor loadout) as part of a HQ requirement as well as a Psyker.

It will be run along AD mech lines so the Techpriest addition is more fluff oriented than a tactical choice.

alarmingrick wrote:and to be clear, i'd never try to run a Techpriest/ Priest either. i don't think they fulfill the HQ requirements(not to go too OT). the problem i see with a Lord Commissar is points. you get the CCS for 20 base points cheaper. and the 4 Special weapons are just a steal. even though my CCS isn't issuing orders, having a 1/2 Vet squad with 1 more Melta running around is just too good to drop, IMHO.

I thought for a while I could save points by going with the Lord Commissar because I wouldn't be filling out a squad with plasma/melta and autocannons but yeah, once you tool up the Commissar with a plasma pistol and Power weapon he just isnt much of a point saver. Really I think that taking the CCS is probably just a better use of points than the other HQ choices. If only I could take a normal Commissar with my Vet squads.

I always field at least one since it is the only way of regrouping your units when they are below half strength...or unpinning your units if you chose to go to ground. Even in a mech army, those two orders are highly beneficial.

Well, for their points command squads are the top choice to take. You can outfit them in a multitude of ways, and have them operate in a number of roles. But there is one case when you do not want a command squad, and that is basically when you are running a troop minimum mechanized list. Two veterans squads in chimeras wont really benefit all that much from orders, and this is when you can experiment with the other HQ choices. I am in the camp that Techpriest and Priests can be taken as your mandatory HQ choices, although I have never done it.

-Priests should never really be taken aside from a fluff perspective. Unfortunately, the independent character rule allows them to be targeted in CC, and at T3 with 1 wound even a basic space marine will knock them out and thats 45 points gone, or 60 with an eviscerator.

-Lord Commissars can be quite effective when given a pair of powerfists and carapace, but he suffers from the same drawbacks as the priest; IC status is a death sentence to guard characters in CC. They don't have the survivability against any decent CC unit or character. So he should be used as more of an opportunistic attacker. Charge with another squad first then have the commissar charge so that he is only in base contact with 1 enemy model. But honestly Straken is SOOO much better that this should only be used if you can't find the extra 35 points for him but you still want a CC based HQ unit for your mech army

-Techpriests seem like they can be very good in the perfect situation set-up. Park a tech-priest behind behind your three Leman russes (as long as they are not in squadrons as immobilized is a destroyed result) and run around fixing them. But they end up being far too reactionary. They sit there waiting for something to happen and its usually a vehicle destroyed result when something does. But I do acknowledge that in certain cases they can make a big difference

-Psyker Primaris would be my vote for a true CCS replacement. Lightning Arc is a brutal ability. Put him in a chimera with a veteran squad a rip up squads and light vehicles

I'm planning on using a Primaris for my HQ slot because 2d6 Str 6 shots for 70 points is really good.

I think that CCS are great as well, both for orders and for the special weapons capacities, but I'm running Mech Guard and don't want to have to purchase another chimera just for that unit. I'll drop the primaris into a PCS and have more points to spend on my killy tanks.

willydstyle wrote:I'm planning on using a Primaris for my HQ slot because 2d6 Str 6 shots for 70 points is really good.

I think that CCS are great as well, both for orders and for the special weapons capacities, but I'm running Mech Guard and don't want to have to purchase another chimera just for that unit. I'll drop the primaris into a PCS and have more points to spend on my killy tanks.

but that's where i look at it differently. i don't see CCS as a burden, but as another weapon in my list. i like having the extra Meltas and the extra Chimera.

i've also thought about running out a Primaris Psyker as a HQ. but for him and a Chimera runs 125. for a CCS, w/ 4 Meltas and a Chimera is 145. seems like a better deal for the CCS. saving that 20 points just isn't worth what you're losing.

In my list I'm going to be using Devil Dogs and CCS for my melta power, and I'm using Platoons for my troops, so I felt that running a CCS squad was not necessary for my particular army design.

I agree with you that they are a great unit for many lists, especially because you don't have to sacrifice a troops unit to melta a priority target, but they just don't fit in as well for my own particular brand of mech Guard.

The thing about the Primaris is that I don't need to buy him another chimera. Chimeras are great tanks, but I want to take less of them, and more of other tanks like Devil Dogs, Manticores, and Hydras.

Yeah, Lightning Arc is great. I personally think the PP is one of the most underrated units in the IG codex.

I always take a CCS (except in 500pt games when I don't have the points to properly equip them).

For my second HQ, I take a PP when I have the points to spare and am not going to take an Inquisitor Lord.

@alarmingrick, remember that you don't need a Chimera for the PP since he's independent. Just toss him into a chimera with some non-melta vets (this is the only situation in which I say GL vets are acceptable, actually - but plasma is ideal) for a nice gunboat-esque unit.

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I honestly don't see much point in the other HQ units. Priests - if you're going CC Guard, just use the points on another squad. Techpriests are just a bad idea in general. Lord Commissar's effect can be replicated well enough by Chenkov in a PCS and a Regimental Standard in your CCS, and you get better utility and survivability that way.

makr wrote:Yeah, Lightning Arc is great. I personally think the PP is one of the most underrated units in the IG codex.

I always take a CCS (except in 500pt games when I don't have the points to properly equip them).

For my second HQ, I take a PP when I have the points to spare and am not going to take an Inquisitor Lord.

@alarmingrick, remember that you don't need a Chimera for the PP since he's independent. Just toss him into a chimera with some non-melta vets (this is the only situation in which I say GL vets are acceptable, actually - but plasma is ideal) for a nice gunboat-esque unit.

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I honestly don't see much point in the other HQ units. Priests - if you're going CC Guard, just use the points on another squad. Techpriests are just a bad idea in general. Lord Commissar's effect can be replicated well enough by Chenkov in a PCS and a Regimental Standard in your CCS, and you get better utility and survivability that way.

true, but i'd be losing a Chimera without my CCS and want it replaced. that's why i included it.

A lord commisar works grat with heavy wep teams, for orders, and keeping a gunline going till the last man. and as for guard cc, 30 men with 6 power weapon wielding models who can't be taegeted will crush just about anything that doesn't have an AV. Add in counter-charge and you are up to 18 PW attacks. Have an DH Inquisitor with a holy relic near-by and it's 24 PW attacks, add in an nearby WH Inquisitor with an Holy Icon (Ithink thts the name for +1A and thats 30 PW attacks, when you get charged.

Now if you are bat guano crazy take the above, add a priest for rerolls and f. assault, then charge a unit when it gets too close. They never break because of the Commisar lord, and do some good shooting with cheap sniper rifles for pinning, FRFSRF, or sqitch out the Lord for a PP for the 2D6 str6 shots. This combo won me a turny, The rest of my army was heavy on anti tank, and this unit stayed in cover, The PP has a nifty little Don't shoot ms" ability to use.

My only real problem with the PP is that what he does isn't generally something I need done. I only rarely run into situations where some S6 shooting is more useful than 4x melta/plasma/FT weapons. In the majority of cases the PP is just a multilaser with an additional roll of the dice beforehand. As pointed out above as well, you're not saving an abundance of points with him either (only 20 in a quad melta squad) and as CCS generally like riding in Vendettas to get from A-B the PP often isn't even saving you the Chimera points either.

The LC also kinda falls into this realm for me. I look at my list and see no real need for subborn or summary executions and his leadership bubble is pretty small (size does matter, sorry commisar) limiting what you can really use it for.

The LC and PP aren't low enough in points compared to the CCS to really call them the Budget HQ and they both do things that an average IG mech list doesn't really need done. Fluffy and occaisionally cute, but not a competitive choice IMHO.