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Hey guys. Looking for some advice on my current Ork list. My usual opponents are 'Nids, IG, and SW but I don't want to be left in the cold vs. 'nilla marines, eldar, etc.

My current list is as follows:

HQ: Ghazghkull Thraka @ 225pts.
HQ: Big Mek; KFF, Grot Oiler @ 90pts.

Elite: 15 Lootas @ 225pts.
Elite: 15 Lootas @ 225pts.

Troop 1: 6 Nobz; Painboy, PK, Big Choppa x2, Choppa x2, Cybork, Waaagh Banner, Bosspole, Grot Orderly @ 240pts.
Transport: Battlewagon; RPJ, BSx2, Deffrolla, Boarding Plank @ 130pts.
Troop2: 19 Shoota Boyz; Nob, PK, Bosspole @ 154pts.
Troop3: 20 Shoota Boyz; Nob, PK, Bosspole @ 160pts.
Troop4: 20 Shoota Boyz; Nob, PK, Bosspole @ 160pts.

Heavy: Battlewagon; RPJ, BSx2, Deffrolla, Boarding Plank @ 130pts.
Heavy: Battlewagon; RPJ, BSx2, Deffrolla, Boarding Plank @ 130pts.
Heavy: Battlewagon; RPJ, BSx2, Deffrolla, Boarding Plank @ 130pts.
Total Roster: 1999pts.

General deployment strategy is to put lootas in cover and try to crack open transports or targets of opportunity while battlewagons smash into things and eventually dump a payload of boys on the opponents fractured lines. I haven't had a chance to test vs. really fast armies (mechdar, bike marines) or a true horde (the mirror?) but can usually draw or eek out narrow victory vs. the local IG players who aren't running PBS. I'm a little leery of the Nob squad as it's a boatload of points for a unit which is easily fractured and can't really stand toe-to-toe with other dedicated CC units. So my question to you dakkaites is this, "Where would you go from here?" I would like to keep mechanized if at all possible, but I don't have a fear of changing lists entirely and have access to every possible ork model I could need.

big mek is not 225 pts xD

Include some deffkoptas and you are good to go. Also consider extra armour. And second PK to the nobz.

Oops. There's too many 225pt choices and I got on auto-pilot. Fitting in deffkoptas or more claws means dropping the nobz, as dropping boys won't free up the points and leaves me down on troop choices.

I've found it usefull to only have 19 boyz in the BW boy squads, just in case KFF wagon blows he has back ups to jump into.

Grimbob has a good idea. When you dopped meks price it actually does not look like 2000 pts so there IS room for koptaz.

w0chtulka wrote:Grimbob has a good idea. When you dopped meks price it actually does not look like 2000 pts so there IS room for koptaz.

225+90+225+225+240+130+154+160+160+130+130+130=1999

I just typed the wrong value. The math was correct.

In order to squeeze in koptas or more PKs I need to shave points, which means either dropping options from battlewagons, or dropping the Nob unit. I'm more inclined to drop the Nobz, but the question then becomes... what for?

Grimgob wrote:I've found it usefull to only have 19 boyz in the BW boy squads, just in case KFF wagon blows he has back ups to jump into.

This is a good idea. Also shaves off 12pts. that's half a PK!

I'm running a very similar list right now and have been pretty happy with it overall.

If you drop the nobs and their wagon you save 370 points, and then the 12 points from those other two boys out of the wagons. So we have 382 to spend.

I'd start with a small grot unit 10 and herder for 40pts or 19 + herd for 67 is a handy and cheap way to hold objectives in your deployment. I like my kopptas but with 30 lootas to handle transports and deffrollas & planks for av 13 & 14 I'm really not sure their needed.

Speaking of which I'm not sure you even need the planks. And for the cost of those planks you could turn the one of the big shootas into a kannon. With the 36" range and option for frag or krak they're pretty damn nice since you'll usually be moving at combat speed in order to fire the shootas. In regards to the wagons I've also had a lot of folks recommend armor plates for my wagons.

You could pick up snikrot. He's pretty killy but as other players have mentioned the psychological effect of scarring your opponent into deploying closer to you is pretty handy too. 10 Kammandos, 2 burnas and snikrot for 215 sounds effective (or even max the squad for another 50). The thought of him eating up my opponents backfiend sounds pretty good.

2 full trucks of boys is what I often see is other mech ork lists but I worry they'd outrun the BWs unless you held them back. Only 324 for two full trucks with pk nobs, BPs, rams, and RPJ. One option I've considered with the trucks was holding one in reserve to try and protect the lootas.

Reminds me, another 15 man loota squad for 225 is nothing to sneeze at. Gotta love redundancy and everyone I play against them hates em. Fits with the wall of bullets theme too. Though with three squads I worry that you wouldn't have enough space to deploy them for maximum effectiveness.

Personally I want to try fielding a deffdread since we can take them as troop choices. While likely sub-optimal they're fun, benefit from KFF, can keep up with combat speed wagons and pack a nasty CC punch of you can get them there alive. Only a cheap 95pts for 3 DCCW and a scorcha. For that matter you could take a second KFF mek and 2 deffdreads at a cheap 275 which would allow you to split your forces if necessary. Might have to try this in a friendly game just for the fun of it.

So for example you could field a full snikrot unit, 10 grots and a TW:R & buzz Saw Koppta for 375. Gets you within 8 points of 2k. This combo would be good against the IG and wolves. God I hate those longfangs.

The shootas on the wagon are to soak up weapon destroyed results, not to shoot. Granted, if I find myself in the position to shoot them, they get shot, but they're purchased to make the wagon a little harder to kill off. I tried kannons/rokkits on wagons, but using them as transports and giving them weaponry doesn't really jive together as moving 6" each turn and shooting a kannon has the net effect of making me sad. Now with deffrollas there's even more incentive to keep moving 13".

I don't think the third loota squad is really worth it, as sinking 675pts. into the three squads to get them broken and not have enough terrain to plop them in seems bad. I don't want to drop a loota squad, as they really are *that* good but I don't think crowding my deployment zone with a third unit of them is a good idea.

Now snikrot... he has a cute trick, but a full unit of kommandos is expensive, and a min unit seems like a waste of points if your opponent is mechanized. Sure he can pop a transport with decent rolls, but is that worth his points when lootas do the same thing with more regularity? I have a nicely painted snikrot, so I may try him some more... but I have a feeling I'll drop him again.

I've considered a grot unit to leave in reserves for objective holding, but I have to juggle with points before I can squeeze them in. Boyz in trukks have been really hit and miss for me (which is why I swapped to BW spam... trukks are poop), if you kareen forward with wild abandon and hit your opponents lines with all of your boys, it's a pretty strong tactic... but if the board is cluttered, or your opponents are also in transports, this becomes increasingly difficult and trukk boyz fail morale tests like there's no tomorrow.

The Deff Dread might actually be ok as a dedicated CC unit, but I'm afraid a lone dread is just going to get picked off, and keeping up with wagons and within KFF range could prove to be sticky.

Koptas are definitely good at the suicide run, but again... I need to figure out what to cut and where to trim fat.

So far, the least effective unit(s) in my list have been Ghazghkull and the Nobz. Ghaz is a beast in CC, but getting him there can prove to be difficult overall, I have a love/hate relationship with him... when he's good, he's amazing... but when he never gets there... he makes me a sad panda.

Well, when I've run this list I tend to not get out of my wagons whenever I can help it unless I'm getting the charge. Using the shoota boys in the wagons with this tactic has been effective since with enough rolls those damn termies will bite it eventually. While I agree with you that it's often worth it to forgo firing the kannon for five more points you can have a gun that is more worth firing when you do choose to shoot with the boys in the BW. This has mostly been against marines and I have been happy with the investment.

Have you been moving your full 13"? With this set up I wasn't since I was using my lootas & Kopptas to pop transports and then pour rains of bullets into the disembarked troops. If you haven't been then the dread would keep up just fine.

With the trucks I agree they're really random. If I was going to use them they'd be something for dashing to objectives in the last 2 turns of a game or as a counter charge unit. Their use would be to block rear armor on the wagons and simply support.

The nobs, and the rest of this stuff all works, it's just an issue of optimization.

While I was mulling over this list one of the things I've tried with mixed success to supplement my wagons is an extra 30 man shoota boyz squad or two. They can take cover behind the wagons and have enough punch to keep up.

Have to ask, do you really need Ghaz in this list? Since its heavily weighted towards BWs, why not just take two big meks instead? Granted, Ghaz's waaagh is great but its not looking like this list is going to depend on a good waagh turn.

Sliggoth

One amazing Waagh from Gaz could mean a game for an ork player. But the 100 or so points you'd save could go to some Deffkoptas.

WarOne wrote:One amazing Waagh from Gaz could mean a game for an ork player. But the 100 or so points you'd save could go to some Deffkoptas.

This is true. I am more inclined to cut the Nobz than Ghaz himself, as you've said... a Waaagh from ghaz can turn the game around. The Nobz are pretty good, but there are a lot of things that can currently handle them pretty well, even with FNP and kooky wound allocation. Dropping the Nobz and their wagon however frees up 370pts. which affords me a couple deffkoptas, gretchin for objective squatting, and I still have a healthy chunk of points left over.

I guess the question really is: Are Nobz worth it currently? Can I do more effective things with 370pts.?

with 370pts. I can:

Fast: DeffKopta; TLR, Buzzsaw @ 70pts.
Fast: DeffKopta; TLR, Buzzsaw @ 70pts.
Fast: 3x Warbuggies; TLR x3 @ 105pts.
Troop4: 10 Gretchin; Runtherd @ 40pts.

leaving me with another 85pts. to spare. granted, I still need to drop a couple boyz so ghaz has a ride, and account for the already missing point, so I'll actually have closer to 100pts. left over. Just food for thought. Keep the opinions/ideas coming.

Ghaz is fantastic, don't get me wrong... but 'is he 15 boyz + pk nob in barebones battlewagon worth of points fantastic?' is the question you need to ask yourself. Most of the time I can't justify him at all until 1850+ when I really start to have points to play with.

Gorkamorka wrote:Ghaz is fantastic, don't get me wrong... but 'is he 15 boyz + pk nob in barebones battlewagon worth of points fantastic?' is the question you need to ask yourself. Most of the time I can't justify him until 1850+ when I really start to have points to play with.

I wouldn't bother with him under 1850 either, and this is a 2000pt. list, not 1500, so that's a moot point.

I do however feel the list is lacking in threat density... but I think that's more a shortcoming of the codex than anything. As of now, I have 6 "must deal with" (and I use the phrase lightly) threats, 4x wagons with payload and 2x lootas... at the same point level, space marines can have 10, and IG regularly have that many or more. With ghaz in the mix, you at least have a fighting chance once your boys are out of the wagon to actually get to your opponent... granted, I've yet to find myself wagonless early in the game, but I also don't feel as though I've played against fully optimized lists either and do not want to grow comfortable with having wagons driving around with impunity.

Dropping ghaz completely may give me the points to buy a decent mob of boyz and a bare wagon, but heavy slots are full, and only nobz get them as transports, and they're [the nobz] more expensive than ghaz is. With full loota mobs and the current 3 units of wagon boyz, I have 3x FA slots, 3x Troop slots, 1x elite slot, and 1x HQ slot assuming I drop ghaz + nobz. This frees up 595pts. that I don't really have slots to sink them into. I could drop just ghaz, pick a weedier warboss, gain 100pts. and buy a deffkopta... or I can drop the elephant in the room of the nobz and get a boatload of points to spend on things... or drop ghaz, let the nobz become a non-scoring unit and have 225pts. to spend on troop choices with bad/no transports and fast attack choices because everything else is full.

Gah... the dilemma. :(

gesis wrote:

Gorkamorka wrote:Ghaz is fantastic, don't get me wrong... but 'is he 15 boyz + pk nob in barebones battlewagon worth of points fantastic?' is the question you need to ask yourself. Most of the time I can't justify him until 1850+ when I really start to have points to play with.

I wouldn't bother with him under 1850 either, and this is a 2000pt. list, not 1500, so that's a moot point.

I do however feel the list is lacking in threat density... but I think that's more a shortcoming of the codex than anything. As of now, I have 6 "must deal with" (and I use the phrase lightly) threats, 4x wagons with payload and 2x lootas... at the same point level, space marines can have 10, and IG regularly have that many or more. With ghaz in the mix, you at least have a fighting chance once your boys are out of the wagon to actually get to your opponent... granted, I've yet to find myself wagonless early in the game, but I also don't feel as though I've played against fully optimized lists either and do not want to grow comfortable with having wagons driving around with impunity.

Dropping ghaz completely may give me the points to buy a decent mob of boyz and a bare wagon, but heavy slots are full, and only nobz get them as transports, and they're [the nobz] more expensive than ghaz is. With full loota mobs and the current 3 units of wagon boyz, I have 3x FA slots, 3x Troop slots, 1x elite slot, and 1x HQ slot assuming I drop ghaz + nobz. This frees up 595pts. that I don't really have slots to sink them into. I could drop just ghaz, pick a weedier warboss, gain 100pts. and buy a deffkopta... or I can drop the elephant in the room of the nobz and get a boatload of points to spend on things... or drop ghaz, let the nobz become a non-scoring unit and have 225pts. to spend on troop choices with bad/no transports and fast attack choices because everything else is full.

Gah... the dilemma. :(

Yeah, I was more referring to the general comments on ghaz and the wagon/boyz were just a general cost comparison point. I'll agree that you're high enough to bring him, and that he's a good buy for this list.

If you need to scrounge a few points, and just as a general tip, I'd suggest dropping 2 boyz from one of the non-hq wagons so that ghaz or the kff can hop in if their wagon disappears on turn 1/2.

The nobs, at only 6, really seem like a point sink to me rather than a really solid threatening unit. But you need them for the wagon... it is rough, isn't it?
You could net almost 45 points from dropping the auxiliarry big shootas, the RPJs, and the oiler. While I don't run Ghaz often, when I do I consider dropping my bosspoles as well (I'm fearless for the 2 combat rounds where I'm likely to need it). You might consider spreading out the lootas out a bit so they can threaten more, but that makes them easier to run off, but makes them more targets that need shooting at...

If your big shootas are just there to absorb weapon destroyed results, then you're moving too fast to shoot your shoota boyz as well. And if you were going to sit and shoot, you could do it better with Lootas in battlewagons. So why shoota boyz instead of slugga boyz?

Dashofpepper wrote:If your big shootas are just there to absorb weapon destroyed results, then you're moving too fast to shoot your shoota boyz as well. And if you were going to sit and shoot, you could do it better with Lootas in battlewagons. So why shoota boyz instead of slugga boyz?

If you're going 13" getting into assault range isn't so difficult and the pre-assault weathering fire makes the boys a little more survivable in CC since you're likely striking last against the majority of foes, and when you aren't striking last, it's simultaneous.

gesis wrote:If you're going 13" getting into assault range isn't so difficult and the pre-assault weathering fire makes the boys a little more survivable in CC since you're likely striking last against the majority of foes, and when you aren't striking last, it's simultaneous.

I can't help but keep asking myself "What would Gesis do?"

I get where you are going with this statement, but you will get a lot more mileage out of sluggas than shootas when piled into vehicles.

The overall statistics for the first round are pretty similar for how many units you'll kill when you assault as far as total bodies destroyed on the enemy's side. But the body count is where the similarity ends. You'll find two things out through running the numbers:

1) Shootas don't win combat by as much, and will therefore have a more limited impact on whether the unit flees or dies to no retreat wounds.

2) Any round subsequent to your initial assault, those shootas in their hand are a major hinderance. Sluggas put out 50% more damage in subsequent rounds than shootas do, and are more likely to win sustained combat rounds.

A group of 20 shootas is only going to kill 2 marines with their shooting prior to the assault, so it isn't like the shots are making a tremendous difference in the amount of attacks hitting you anyway. Switch them to sluggas, and you will see a definite improvement in their overall killy-ness.

Dashofpepper wrote:If your big shootas are just there to absorb weapon destroyed results, then you're moving too fast to shoot your shoota boyz as well. And if you were going to sit and shoot, you could do it better with Lootas in battlewagons. So why shoota boyz instead of slugga boyz?

Because when you get to your destination you can either dump 40 shoota shots into the enemy from the safety of an AV 14 shooting platform OR if you wish you can exit the vehicle, dump 40 shoota shots into the enemy from the ground and then assault them.

Both options are superior to exiting the vehicle, shooting with pistols and assaulting them at initiative 3.

Also, lootas don't score.

A group of 20 shootas is only going to kill 2 marines with their shooting prior to the assault, so it isn't like the shots are making a tremendous difference in the amount of attacks hitting you anyway. Switch them to sluggas, and you will see a definite improvement in their overall killy-ness.

Until you have to assault nids and they crush you with counter assault at initiative 5.

It's actually a wash mathematically, 20 boyz assault 10 tactical marines:

Shoota Boyz

Orks Shoot: 40 Shots, 13 Hits, 7 Wounds, 2.5 Deaths
Marine Assault: 7 Attacks, 3.5 Hits, 1.75 Wounds, 2 Dead
Orks Assault: 60 Attacks, 30 Hits, 15 Wounds, 5 Dead

Slugga Boyz

Orks Shoot: 20 Shots, 7 Hits, 3.5 Wounds, 1 Death
Marine Assault: 10 Attacks, 5 Hits, 2.5 Wounds, 2 Dead
Orks Assault: 80 Attacks, 40 Hits, 20 Wounds, 6 Dead

The above results exclude power klaws which both shoota boyz and slugga boyz will have.

So basically the results are identical, but the shoota boyz have the option of just shooting effectively from the safety of the vehicle up to 18" (which in turn allows the rest of your army to do the same) and the slugga boyz don't.

Against cc focused units both the boyz get smashed either way if they get into assault (choppy nids, harlequins, assault terminators, monstrous creatures).

I suppose in the second round of assault the choppy boyz are superior since they now have 33% more attacks instead of only 25% more attacks, but really if you're held up in combat for 2+ turns you've probably got bigger problems and your opponent is probably happy about it.

Kevin Nash wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:If your big shootas are just there to absorb weapon destroyed results, then you're moving too fast to shoot your shoota boyz as well. And if you were going to sit and shoot, you could do it better with Lootas in battlewagons. So why shoota boyz instead of slugga boyz?

Because when you get to your destination you can either dump 40 shoota shots into the enemy from the safety of an AV 14 shooting platform OR if you wish you can exit the vehicle, dump 40 shoota shots into the enemy from the ground and then assault them.

Both options are superior to exiting the vehicle, shooting with pistols and assaulting them at initiative 3.

Also, lootas don't score.

A group of 20 shootas is only going to kill 2 marines with their shooting prior to the assault, so it isn't like the shots are making a tremendous difference in the amount of attacks hitting you anyway. Switch them to sluggas, and you will see a definite improvement in their overall killy-ness.

Until you have to assault nids and they crush you with counter assault at initiative 5.

Exiting a battlewagon with a unit of boyz voluntarily is usually a bad play.

I've never seen such complete lack of regard for the damage that ork assaults bring to the table. Most of my games are played against tyranids since my best friend plays tyranids, and I can't recall a time when hanging out in an open topped vehicle shooting would outweigh the value of swinging into his forces like a wrecking ball.

More often than not, when shootas hang out in a wagon, they are inviting the tyranids to blow up their wagon, then get assaulted.

A slugga will on average do 1.166 wounds on the assault prior to armor saves, 0.166 of which is going to be done before the assault actually happens with his pistol shots. A shoota is going to do 0.333 wounds for every chance he gets to shoot without taking advantage of an assault. Since vehicles can easily outmaneuver nids, it isn't hard to bring weight of numbers and tank shock your targets into complete isolation, so I'm curious where you see shooting as superior.

I'd also point out that the battle wagon has a very narrow front profile (narrowest in the game, right?), and doesn't get an all encompassing AV 14 like a land raider. Regardless of which army you are facing, you are much more likely to be hit on AV 12 than 14 when you are closing to within 18" and hanging out instead of assaulting.

Battlewagons may be the thinnest but they also have the advantage of positioning... spread them out about 4 inches apart from wach other, put a big mek in the middle... what do you have... practicly guaranteed front armor shots from majority angles on 2 of the wags... win win, and a 4+ cover savejus make sure you face em the right way to fend off the weapons that can do damage and your sorted

Carnuss wrote:

Kevin Nash wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:If your big shootas are just there to absorb weapon destroyed results, then you're moving too fast to shoot your shoota boyz as well. And if you were going to sit and shoot, you could do it better with Lootas in battlewagons. So why shoota boyz instead of slugga boyz?

Because when you get to your destination you can either dump 40 shoota shots into the enemy from the safety of an AV 14 shooting platform OR if you wish you can exit the vehicle, dump 40 shoota shots into the enemy from the ground and then assault them.

Both options are superior to exiting the vehicle, shooting with pistols and assaulting them at initiative 3.

Also, lootas don't score.

A group of 20 shootas is only going to kill 2 marines with their shooting prior to the assault, so it isn't like the shots are making a tremendous difference in the amount of attacks hitting you anyway. Switch them to sluggas, and you will see a definite improvement in their overall killy-ness.

Until you have to assault nids and they crush you with counter assault at initiative 5.

Exiting a battlewagon with a unit of boyz voluntarily is usually a bad play.

I've never seen such complete lack of regard for the damage that ork assaults bring to the table. Most of my games are played against tyranids since my best friend plays tyranids, and I can't recall a time when hanging out in an open topped vehicle shooting would outweigh the value of swinging into his forces like a wrecking ball.

The issue isn't what you do to that unit it's usually what happens to your unit after the assault when you're now no longer in the safety of your vehicle. Following that consolidate if your opponent has another round of shooting or assault you're probably done. That isn't the case if you are still in the vehicle.

I will agree that if you're up against the wall and it's either get out and fight or just die then yeah, you exit the vehicle and smash face. It's a judgment call. I often stay inside if I think it's to my benefit.

More often than not, when shootas hang out in a wagon, they are inviting the tyranids to blow up their wagon, then get assaulted.

The chances of vanilla nids actually destroying the wagon are pretty slim. If my opponent shakes it or something then I'll exit the vehicles shoot and assault. If he immobilizes or weapon destroys the vehicles I'll make a judgement call but likely just dump 40 shoota shots into his gants or stealers and wipe the unit.

A slugga will on average do 1.166 wounds on the assault prior to armor saves, 0.166 of which is going to be done before the assault actually happens with his pistol shots. A shoota is going to do 0.333 wounds for every chance he gets to shoot without taking advantage of an assault. Since vehicles can easily outmaneuver nids, it isn't hard to bring weight of numbers and tank shock your targets into complete isolation, so I'm curious where you see shooting as superior.

I'd also point out that the battle wagon has a very narrow front profile (narrowest in the game, right?), and doesn't get an all encompassing AV 14 like a land raider. Regardless of which army you are facing, you are much more likely to be hit on AV 12 than 14 when you are closing to within 18" and hanging out instead of assaulting.

I broke down the math above. Mathematically if you exit the vehicle, shoot and then assault, you have approximately the same results in the first round of assault with either shoota boyz or slugga boyz. There are other variables of course. Sometimes shooting with sluggas loses you an assault. Slugga boyz do better in the actual assault and therefore have a better combat result. Slugga boyz are also better in subsequent rounds of assault where the extra attack is now 33% better instead of 25%.

That said shoota boyz can move 7 in a wagon and shoot 18". They can also shoot from a vehicle into nasty assault units that both slugga or shoota boyz would get tabled by.

At the end of the day I will still assault with boyz if it's to my advantage but I'd rather have the choice of shooting or assaulting and not be forced into one choice based on my list construction.

Like it or not, for every 60 points you are spending on shootas, you are also laying down 40 points on wagon, as about 40% of the points spent on dakka wagons is dropped into the wagon.

That wagon that you are investing in doesn't help like it does for mechanized sluggas. Big squads of 30 have no real issues getting into an 18" shooting range, and are quite effective without vehicles. Against 'nilla nidz, you are going to more likely than not face at least one group of S10 AP1 lances, and may face 2 groups. If you don't see that, you'll see squads of multi-S8 shots which are assault weapons, and they will easily be able to walk to the side to hit your side armor due to your narrow front armor angle. A couple of groups of zoanthropes will destroy on average a vehicle or so per turn, so your guys aren't in some impervious ivory tower safe from your opponents. Even genestealers can take out a wagon with reasonable regularity given it is only AV10 rear.

If you are fond of shootas, you'd probably find that you have more success with them on foot given that they get a lot more shots, and the AV12 (usually) open topped vehicle you are banking on to defend yourself isn't necessary to get you into your effective range. That may be a bit more debatable now that rollas are officially your best anti-armor in the game, but I don't see that ruling making shootas any more effective than their sub-optimal level that they held prior to the ruling.

Carnuss wrote:Like it or not, for every 60 points you are spending on shootas, you are also laying down 40 points on wagon, as about 40% of the points spent on dakka wagons is dropped into the wagon.

That wagon that you are investing in doesn't help like it does for mechanized sluggas.

It does when you're trying to take objectives in a vehicles, want to do damage with your troop choice and don't want to exit the vehicle for risk of getting templated or blasted to death.

Big squads of 30 have no real issues getting into an 18" shooting range, and are quite effective without vehicles.

This is a gross overstatement. 30 boyz on foot are ok but they can't just find range on everything they want to when you factor in LOS, terrain, and a moving target.

Against 'nilla nidz, you are going to more likely than not face at least one group of S10 AP1 lances, and may face 2 groups. If you don't see that, you'll see squads of multi-S8 shots which are assault weapons, and they will easily be able to walk to the side to hit your side armor due to your narrow front armor angle. A couple of groups of zoanthropes will destroy on average a vehicle or so per turn, so your guys aren't in some impervious ivory tower safe from your opponents. Even genestealers can take out a wagon with reasonable regularity given it is only AV10 rear.

Genestealers can't "take out" a wagon regularly. They might be able to damage it or even shake it. But blowing it up isn't mathematically likely. Possible with rending yes. But it's hardly a sure thing.

That isn't my experience at all. My last game against nids I tabled them by tank shocking with deffrollas and then dumping small arms fire into them after. I was wiping out entire units without ever leaving my vehicle.

If you are fond of shootas, you'd probably find that you have more success with them on foot given that they get a lot more shots, and the AV12 (usually) open topped vehicle you are banking on to defend yourself isn't necessary to get you into your effective range. That may be a bit more debatable now that rollas are officially your best anti-armor in the game, but I don't see that ruling making shootas any more effective than their sub-optimal level that they held prior to the ruling.

Been there done that. I have a Kan wall list too. It's fine but the lack of mobility is annoying. I prefer just packing shoota boyz into wagons right now.

I'm just not a fan of slugga boyz because frankly they aren't that much better than shoota boyz in assault to justify getting rid of an 18" assault 2 weapon.

By my count, one out of every four genestealers are going to score a penetrating hit. 12 attacks, 6 hits, 1 rend. Any rend automatically penetrates, as it can't roll lower than 11, and any penetrate has a 50% chance to destroy your vehicle, or a 66% chance to turn it into an immobile brick, depriving you over the mobility you are talking about. That's just 4 genestealers...

I'm not seeing a significantly higher mobility for the shootas that you keep saying you have, though. If they are going to shoot from inside that vehicle, they are only moving 7" max. If you are dumping them out to shoot at 13", then why not have sluggas instead since they'll produce more casualties, win combat, etc... 7" vs. 6" doesn't explain why you'd spend 40% of your points on the vehicle, which as I said, doesn't stop much from popping you anyway.

The strength of the wagon is getting you into assault range quickly and efficiently, with the bulk of far away targets being forced to hit AV14. That value goes down drastically as the distance closes, and expecting the vehicle to remain invulnerable through the game and thereby not jumping out to put serious pain on the opponent seems less effective to me.

Against most armies, you're just hanging out in melta range, which is never a good place for your vehicles to be, particularly when your vehicles are open topped.

Carnuss wrote:

I'm not seeing a significantly higher mobility for the shootas that you keep saying you have, though. If they are going to shoot from inside that vehicle, they are only moving 7" max. If you are dumping them out to shoot at 13", then why not have sluggas instead since they'll produce more casualties, win combat, etc
... 7" vs. 6" doesn't explain why you'd spend 40% of your points on the vehicle, which as I said, doesn't stop much from popping you anyway.

Because I can move 7" and shoot 18" which allows me to tag something up to 25" away at the start of the turn, with my entire unit. If they are slugga boyz they can't do that. If they are slugga boyz now I have to get closer with my wagon by moving 13" (now I'm in melta range) and then debark and charge so you're looking at 21" tops and there is no way my entire mob gets into the assault. Now I'm either tied in an assault, wiped out, or I win with a consolidate only to get smashed by enemy shooting since I'm no longer in the safety of a vehicle.

The strength of the wagon is getting you into assault range quickly and efficiently, with the bulk of far away targets being forced to hit AV14.

That's one benefit of it. Another benefit is it's a mobile shooting platform.

That value goes down drastically as the distance closes, and expecting the vehicle to remain invulnerable through the game and thereby not jumping out to put serious pain on the opponent seems less effective to me.

I don't necessarily have to close the distance because I have the option of shooting at things 18" away from me.

Against most armies, you're just hanging out in melta range, which is never a good place for your vehicles to be, particularly when your vehicles are open topped.

Actually with shoota boyz you're doing the exact opposite. You can hang out outside of melta range and shoot at things 18" away. If they are bold enough to close in for a 1D6 shot you deffrolla them or shoot them off the table or assault if that's the correct play.

I like having options. I can't be both slugga and shoota at the same time so I choose shoota, who are pretty decent in assault regardless and also have the option of shooting things from far away if necessary.

Ok guys, after a lot of consideration and careful thought, I've decided I'm going to try this list for a little while:

HQ: Big Mek; KFF, Grot Oiler x2 @ 95pts.
HQ: Ghazghkull Thraka @ 225pts.

Elite: 15x Lootas @ 225pts.
Elite: 15x Lootas @ 225pts.

FA: 3x Warbuggy; TL Rokkit x3 @ 105pts.
FA: 3x Warbuggy; TL Rokkit x3 @ 105pts.
FA: 3x Warbuggy; TL Rokkit x3 @ 105pts.

Troop: 17x Shoota Boyz; Nob, Bosspole, PK @ 148pts.
Troop: 18x Shoota Boyz; Nob, Bosspole, PK @ 154pts.
Troop: 18x Shoota Boyz; Nob, Bosspole, PK @ 154pts.
Troop: 19x Gretchin; Runtherd @ 67pts.

HS: Battlewagon; BS x2, Deffrolla, Boarding Plank, Red Paint Job @ 130pts.
HS: Battlewagon; BS x2, Deffrolla, Boarding Plank, Red Paint Job @ 130pts.
HS: Battlewagon; BS x2, Deffrolla, Boarding Plank, Red Paint Job @ 130pts.

Total Roster: 1998pts.

It eschews the Nobz and their dedicated wagon for 9x TL Rokkit buggies and a unit of gretchin for late game objective taking. I figure, the buggies will serve the dual purpose of screening wagons and shooting light vehicles. Having the gretchin in reserve in order to take a "friendly" objective late in the game seems a solid strategy, and I still don't lose very much "punch" from the list aside from losing a deffrolla and a single power klaw.