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I have had experience in the past of people cheating by using weighted dice while in tournaments. Once giving me the weighted dice such that it was only possible for me to role ones. And on other occasions using dice that roll 6's in order to blow up my vehicle.

So does anyone have any advice/stratagies to stop/dissuade people from using weighted dice and cheating?

Throw dice in a bucket of water. If they are weighted the same sides will float up.

G

Find a flat surface, then place the dice on its corner with your pointer finger on the opposite corner. Then flick one side with your free hand. If it is weighted it will wobble.

For more random info on dice see my other dice posts


Welcome,
Chris the craps dealer.




On a side note in a major tourney I will use my opponents dice or have him use mine.

If for some reason he does hand you two dice to roll toss them into his dice box and give them a shake "for luck" then just roll your dice the rest of the game.

We have this simple rule in our Code of Conduct:

Dice: AdeptiCon does not require the use any specific type of dice, however your dice must ALWAYS be made available to your opponent to use if they so desire. AdeptiCon reserves the right to remove any dice showing excessive wear, obvious tampering or other questionable deformities.

I got accused of using weighted dice recently... fun times. Just keep in mind that most of the time you are dealing with small sample sizes, so don't be suprised if the results skew from normal occasionally.

Like Matthias said, the best way to handle it is to allow your opponent to use your dice or ask your opponent if you can use theirs.

Share dice... they have no right to complain.

Personally I hate when people use 'special dice' for special' roles like armor saves for ICs and such.

They probably are not cheaters, but there are people who are who they probably learned it from a guy who had a tradition of lucky dice... So they are emulating cheating without actually knowing why.

If he uses special dice for his IC armor saves, I'll use the same dice for my IC saves. So be it.

nkelsch wrote:Personally I hate when people use 'special dice' for special' roles like armor saves for ICs and such.

They probably are not cheaters, but there are people who are who they probably learned it from a guy who had a tradition of lucky dice... So they are emulating cheating without actually knowing why.

That's being a little generous, I think...

Most people, particularly if they are using cheaper dice (which tend to be less well balanced) over time find that certain dice tend to roll high, and others to roll low. So the less scrupulous player will quite often set dice aside for certain rolls, depending on how those dice tend to fall.

A lot of them won't even think of it as cheating... the dice are 'technically' fine, as they're not specifically weighted. I'll admit to doing it myself in the past before I stopped and actually thought about it.

On the tournament front, I would actually like to see tournaments issue dice specifically for use at that event, possibly as part of an 'entry pack' that is covered by your attendance fee. Throw in Dice, a summary sheet, set of templates and a whippy stick, and nobody can ever complain about forgetting the appropriate equipment.

Yeah... I consider using seperate dice for different rolls to be pretty close to cheating. Use the same dice for saves as you do for leadership.

I agree that dice as part of an entry pack is nice and probably the most balanced way of doing it... even though I'd miss my dice that match my army.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Throw dice in a bucket of water. If they are weighted the same sides will float up.

G

Yeah - that doesn't necessarily work with all such dice.

I have seen it work for weighted dice. It's a fast way to check. Some people have a few dice they keep on hand when they need to roll high or low.

About using other peoples dice, just make sure you return them when hte game is over. I have three sets of 12 Dakka Dakka dice, red green & brown... Well I used to have three sets of 12 until an opponent rolling my dice kept some after the game was over.

G

insaniak wrote:
On the tournament front, I would actually like to see tournaments issue dice specifically for use at that event, possibly as part of an 'entry pack' that is covered by your attendance fee. Throw in Dice, a summary sheet, set of templates and a whippy stick, and nobody can ever complain about forgetting the appropriate equipment.

THAT is a great idea!

Make them somewhat special looking, relating to the tournament itself, and will be a nice keepsake too.

Of course, baring that, the 'sharing' route sounds good too.

I used to run Battletech events with a group of guys. After a con, one guy was accused of (and found guilty) of using cheating dice.

After that, we shelled out about $20 each and just took piles of dice with us to tourneys. You didn't get to use your dice at all. Only the dice we provide. NO exceptions.


In a tourney, ask to use your opponent's dice in the same situation. If they say no, call the judge and tell him what you suspect. Frankly, if they are even slightly hesitant, take them away from them. If they are weighted, ban them from any and all tournaments for all time.

Things to look for:
#1. They use different dice when they want to roll high than when they want to roll low.
#2. The dice look funny when they roll on the table or just fall funny.
#3. Your opponent is rolling a lot of '6's.



First off, don't accuse your opponent of cheating which is what you are doing if you ask then to drop their dice in a bucket, because you will be wrong 99% of time. No one wants to be accused of cheating, and you might give someone the stigma of cheating even if it turns out you are wrong.

The simple solution is to just have them roll your dice instead of their own.

Allan if you ask them to rll your dice it's just the same to them as a bucket test.

A year ago I was playing against a daemon army and the opponent was making all of his INV saves. It was crazy. I called over a judge, we inspected his dice he rolled for saves and they were all 5s & 6s.

If your dice are not rigged and your opponent won't let you use them that is akin to bullying.

G

Yeah... I think it's more polite to ask to use their dice. "Man, your dice are really hot right now... maybe some of that luck will rub off on me."

Even still, it's definately not something to ask lightly, though.

the problem is that some people are particularly superstitious about other's using their dice. i knew a d&d player who didn't roll well but never let anyone roll his dice. he got mad once when he sat next to me and put all the dice in between us and i used his d6's for a fireball damage roll. unless the tourney rules say otherwise, no one has to LET you use their dice. you have the right to call a tourney organizer over if you suspsect foul play but you don't have an automatic right to use someone else's hobby tools. nor can you force them to use your dice.

Hmm, Been on the recieving end of being called a cheat. A battletech group I played with would get irritated with me because I rolled an inordinate number of Head Shots. The problem was I used whatever dice were handy at the time. I didn't have a dedicated set of dice for gaming outside of D&D.

Of course ther are also those that subscribe to the idea of "rolling the Ones/Sixes out" Meaning that they roll a ton of dice and seperate out those that roll the proscribed number, then roll those again, putting aside the ones that repeated the "bad" roll. The idea being that the same die rolling that number 3 times in a row was so astronomical as to be nearly improbable.

I feel weird (superstitious) about letting people touch my dice. I swear all my buddy Jeff need to do is LOOK at my dice and I roll 1's and 1's and 1's. I'd be happy to throw my dice in a bucket of water, but don't ask me to let someone else touch my dice!

I do love the idea of having custom dice for tournaments, and we might end up doing that with our club. That would up the price a bit, but who wouldn't love having custom tournament dice?

helgrenze wrote:Of course ther are also those that subscribe to the idea of "rolling the Ones/Sixes out" Meaning that they roll a ton of dice and seperate out those that roll the proscribed number, then roll those again, putting aside the ones that repeated the "bad" roll. The idea being that the same die rolling that number 3 times in a row was so astronomical as to be nearly improbable.

Aka those that fail at stats...

Seriously though, I was recently accused of having loaded dice and it's not a fun experience. One thing you have to keep in mind with "loaded" dice is perception is everything. Your dice may roll average, but if they come up big in 1-2 really important rolls it can completely change the perceived "fairness" of their rolling. Likewise, if you're getting tabled by someone, it's often human nature to think they're just having really lucky or even "loaded" dice. I'm sure everyone has experienced the guy who complains about dice the whole game when in reality it was the fact that they came at your army piecemeal that allowed you to roflstomp them.

helgrenze wrote: Of course ther are also those that subscribe to the idea of "rolling the Ones/Sixes out" Meaning that they roll a ton of dice and seperate out those that roll the proscribed number, then roll those again, putting aside the ones that repeated the "bad" roll. The idea being that the same die rolling that number 3 times in a row was so astronomical as to be nearly improbable.

Someone needs to tell these people about Independent Probability. The die that just rolled it's seventeenth six is equally likely to roll another six as the one that just rolled a one. It's funny how much superstition there is out there.

I try to make a point of sharing dice with my opponent, not only for simplicity (when they finish rolling to wound you simply take the ones that succeeded and roll them yourself for saves) but also to avoid the problem of dice mixing; if only one player's dice are on the table, it's easy for them to pack up instead of going through the inevitably cross-contaminated dice piles and picking out what is/is not yours. That way you don't even have to worry about funky dice.

I've been called on using loaded dice because I roll well. I have two sets of dice I use. About 60 cheap GW red little dice for when I charge massive units of Hormagaunts and such, and a set of 21 large white dice. I like rolling the normal size white dice for most of my rolls because I like the feel of bigger dice. Do they roll better? No, but I've had opponents tell em to just use the red ones for some odd reason.

I make a point of offering my opponent the use of my dice at the beginning of every game (friendly or tourney). Never had a problem.

My dice are not loaded and I'd gladly put them up for any test that wouldn't rui them.

My one true gaming supersitition, though, is someone else using -or even touching- my dice. I've been that way for almost 29 years, now.
Just don't touch my dice. I don't like it.

The idea of sharing someone else's dice is equally appalling to me.

Eric

insaniak wrote:On the tournament front, I would actually like to see tournaments issue dice specifically for use at that event, possibly as part of an 'entry pack' that is covered by your attendance fee. Throw in Dice, a summary sheet, set of templates and a whippy stick, and nobody can ever complain about forgetting the appropriate equipment.

I like this idea. Larger tournaments could even get the dice personalized for their tournament from some of the personalized dice vendors. Then, the players both can't accuse the other of cheating with dice, and the players get to leave with a cool souvenir of the event.

The Defenestrator wrote:

helgrenze wrote: Of course ther are also those that subscribe to the idea of "rolling the Ones/Sixes out" Meaning that they roll a ton of dice and seperate out those that roll the proscribed number, then roll those again, putting aside the ones that repeated the "bad" roll. The idea being that the same die rolling that number 3 times in a row was so astronomical as to be nearly improbable.

Someone needs to tell these people about Independent Probability. The die that just rolled it's seventeenth six is equally likely to roll another six as the one that just rolled a one. It's funny how much superstition there is out there.

Independence in this case presupposes that the dice used are fair, and the mechanism described appears to be more of a (admittedly bad) method of attempting to find dice that aren't fair.

But then again, I'm the sort who tests dice for fairness and don't play with the set that favors the 2/5 axis over the 1/6, even though the roll still averages out to 3.5.



Anyway, another issue most folks have with ascertaining fair dice from playing in a game is either a poor grasp of statistics, especially a failure to understand selection bias.

As an example, a couple of weeks ago, I put five wounds on a single marine holding an objective. The other player rolled five ones on armor saves.

The odds of rolling five ones on that specific roll? 1 in 7776.

The odds of rolling five ones in sequence out of a thousand rolls (which is, by a back-of-envelope calculation, a reasonable estimate for a game of 40k)? Roughly 1 in 8.

You're more likely to roll a sequence of the same number five times in a thousand rolls than you are to not do so.

The odds of rolling 5 ones wether sequential or simultanious are the same 1:7776 not 1 in 8.

ohh i see your saying if you roll 1000 dice in sequence thus 7776/1000 = 1:8

the odds of rolling at least one one in 5d6 is 59.82% (1-(5/6)^5)

lixulana wrote:The odds of rolling 5 ones wether sequential or simultanious are the same 1:7776 not 1 in 8.

ohh i see your saying if you roll 1000 dice in sequence thus 7776/1000 = 1:8

the odds of rolling at least one one in 5d6 is 59.82% (1-(5/6)^5)

Viewed from the front, before any of the rolls have occurred, yes.

But after already rolling 4 1's, the probability of rolling a fifth 1 is still 1 in 6.

This thread is missing a very important response. But don't worry, I can help out with it.


I'd punch them in the face!

I think looking at the suggestions so far given i'd say the best are:
That the organisers should supply the dice and that only these are used during the tournament. Idealy make them custom so others couldn't sneek in their dice. Like this idea.
If thats not possible I think it should be perfectly permissable that someone should offer that both players only use their dice for the game.

Hopefully people arn't too much into superstition and that both players can see the benefit of using one set of dice.

I wouldn't be able to use someone else's dice, just couldn't do it. Like Baseball Players superstitions. I've gone and bought new dice rather than use someone else's. I just feel like I would be contaminating them. Plus the whole germs thing...