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Eric,

We have contacted people about it at various times over the years and priced it out a number of times.

You spelled it out. Certainly becomes a much more doable thing if you are not talking about custom dice which was the context I was referencing. Custom dice add signficant cost. If we are just talking about providing a cube of colored solid dice in a couple different colors that is certainly workable.

-Hank

Oh, yeah.
Custom dice would be nice... but NO WAY would they be reasonable within the context of a tourney, regardless of size.
Not only that, but I've noticed that customized dice tend to be VERY skewed. You definitely don't want THAT associated with a tourney. LOL

"Oh. Yeah! I've heard of Adepticon. You're the guys who gave out the cheater dice that rolled a lot of sixes. I remember that."

Eric

I agree that for the tourny organizer supplying a brick of Chessex six siders and require they be used is probably the best cure for cheating. As an individual player your best bet is simply to ask to examine or even start using your opponent's dice if you strongly suspect that something is amiss. If your opponent hesitates or refuses, then you can pretty much garentee something is wrong. Refusing to allow your opponent to handle your dice is alot like running when the cops drive up. It's not technically against the rules but it's a very bad idea, there is never a legitimate reason for it, it's pretty much prima facia evidence that you are up to no good, and will pretty much garentee that you will looked at closer.

I have a few dice rolling pet peeves that I've developed in almost 30 years of table top wargaming and RPGs:

-I hate small hard to read dice. I've known some people who insist on using those stupidly tiny "mini-dice". I pretty much make it a practice of insisting that people use dice i can actually read. In my D&D games, mini dice only get used to mark hits and the like.
-I hate oddly shaped dice. Those "gem shaped" dice drive me nuts. They just never seem to roll right.
-Dice with oddball symbols instead of traditional numbers or pips on all side drive me nuts too. This one I was guilty of once. I thought it would be cool to get a set of dice with roman numerals to use when I played my 1st century AD Roman army. Well after the first game I realised that both my opponents and I were having trouble reading the results of dice rolls quickly so I never did that again.
-Finally it irritates me when someone uses an oddball way of rolling. For instance for some time it fashionable to use the so-called "control dice" method instead of a tradional d20 in some of the D&D games I played in. That is to say you rolled a d10 for the ones digit and a d6 for the tens. if the d6 came up 1-3 it was a zero and 4-6 meant it was a one. So for example a 4 on the d6 and a 9 on the d10 would be read as 19? Confused? So was I....especially when trying to confirm a dice roll with a glance. You don't roll "control dice" in my D&D game...sorry.

TR

I've never come across someone using loaded dice, although i have been witness to some fairly dodgy rolling techniques:

Rolling the dice over as large an area as possible making you have to scan a large portion of the table to see the results and pretty much guaranteeing that some of them will land out of view.

Rolling the dice next to another pile of dice often making it unclear which dice have been rolled and which ones were already sat 6-side-up on the table.

As for people using my dice, I'll never offer to start out with but if I do start having some outrageous luck i will sheepishly offer them to my opponent by way of recompense. Also, i don't like people just grabbing at my dice as i use some to keep track of faith points, wounds, vehicle damage etc.... It's very frustrating to suddenly have to have an argument about whether one of my Immolators was stunned or shaken the previous turn just because my opponent has grabbed the nearest available dice :S

i tend to roll my opponents dice without asking to roll saves from their wounds. Its usually easier to take the dice that already hit, then wounded, and are already seperated from their failures and just roll saves.

I came across one guy that had a "5" dice about 8 years back in a tournament, He always rolled it with some other dice, and it had 5's on all facings. That way he guaranteed at least 1 high roll for any set of rolls.

Was kinda odd. I didn't notice it until he took it out of his pile of dice to roll saves for his units and LD tests, then after a while I asked why he always took that one die out, he said I was confused.

I then without asking grabbed his successful wounding dice next round to roll my saves and immediately noticed he had one die that had all 5's on all sides. He was kicked from the tourney shortly after.

Since that day I tend to grab dice to roll saves.

I don't know... unless someone's doing a "fast grab" on his dice, I think you'd eventually notice a die with a 5 on top & 5's on the side.

Guy must've been a moron to use that die!

Eric

insaniak wrote:

nkelsch wrote:Personally I hate when people use 'special dice' for special' roles like armor saves for ICs and such.

They probably are not cheaters, but there are people who are who they probably learned it from a guy who had a tradition of lucky dice... So they are emulating cheating without actually knowing why.

That's being a little generous, I think...

Most people, particularly if they are using cheaper dice (which tend to be less well balanced) over time find that certain dice tend to roll high, and others to roll low. So the less scrupulous player will quite often set dice aside for certain rolls, depending on how those dice tend to fall.

A lot of them won't even think of it as cheating... the dice are 'technically' fine, as they're not specifically weighted. I'll admit to doing it myself in the past before I stopped and actually thought about it.

On the tournament front, I would actually like to see tournaments issue dice specifically for use at that event, possibly as part of an 'entry pack' that is covered by your attendance fee. Throw in Dice, a summary sheet, set of templates and a whippy stick, and nobody can ever complain about forgetting the appropriate equipment.

I did this exact same thing, Insaniak, when I played 40k in third edition. I had two specific dice that looked different than the rest, and I was convinced they rolled low, and I used them for lead checks.

Thinking about it, I decided this wasn't cool and stopped doing it... but I just wanted to add in that I didn't think of it as cheating, no one ever called me on it, but when I thought about it, I decided it was totally uncool. Those dice probably WERE off, even though I'd bought them, and I shouldn't have singled them out for that purpose...

I find myself doing that, too.
I have THREE green dice. I like to use them for LD checks and scatters. They roll completely average. There's no preponderance of high OR low rolls.
Every now and again, I realize I'm favoring them for certain things and I'll switch it up.
MY buddies know they roll average, but I won't always be playing them. I don't want anyone thinking "something" is up, so I try to NOT do it.

It's difficult, though, once you get in that habit.

Eric

At GenCon one year, i did the "scoop o dice" and came home with an assortment of dice.

I had been using them for a while and I just happened to catch that one of the d6's has two sides with 3. The 2 was missing from the die, so the sides were 1, 3, 3, 4, 5, and 6. Weird. Must have been a miss-casting.

I took it out the dice bag and set it asside so that I wouldn't use it again. I had used it a few times in D&D rolling healing rolls and such, but never noticed.

So, from my limited experience, I'd say that in casually playing a game, unless you are looking hard at your opponent's dice, you'd likely never notice if they had dice with multiple high numbers. Hell, I had been using MY OWN DICE for months and never noticed that one was miss-cast.

I'm strongly in the "Don't touch my dice or I break your hand," camp. Wanna use my generic D6's, fine. The tourney issue a big brick of dice, couldn't care less who touches them. Grab up any of my special ones that I've collected (looks good, matches the army, just strikes my fancy, whatever) and you'll get your hand back with a few more joints in it.

Wanna accuse me of cheating, fine. Call the judge and when he's done inspecting my dice and declaring you an idiot I'll accidentally whing one of my solid steel D20's at your lovingly painted termie to remind you that a good grasp of statistics and an understanding of how the human mind can find patterns in random noise would serve you well.

Tyyr wrote:I'm strongly in the "Don't touch my dice or I break your hand," camp. Wanna use my generic D6's, fine. The tourney issue a big brick of dice, couldn't care less who touches them. Grab up any of my special ones that I've collected (looks good, matches the army, just strikes my fancy, whatever) and you'll get your hand back with a few more joints in it.

Wanna accuse me of cheating, fine. Call the judge and when he's done inspecting my dice and declaring you an idiot I'll accidentally whing one of my solid steel D20's at your lovingly painted termie to remind you that a good grasp of statistics and an understanding of how the human mind can find patterns in random noise would serve you well.

Oh Internet Tough Guy, did you know that breaking someone's hand when they went for your dice would get you kicked out of the tourney (and probably arrested) regardless of whether or not you were actually cheating? And that if you don't warn, "Don't touch" your opponent has no way to reasonably expect you to flip out?

Tyyr wrote:
Wanna accuse me of cheating, fine. Call the judge and when he's done inspecting my dice and declaring you an idiot I'll accidentally whing one of my solid steel D20's at your lovingly painted termie to remind you that a good grasp of statistics and an understanding of how the human mind can find patterns in random noise would serve you well.

Also note that random noise is also a pattern, an unusually spread pattern I can say. A pattern that happens only in circumstances where the chances of all possible outcomes are equal or almost equal. Rolling 6, 6, 6, 6, 6 or any long string of identical numbers on a dice is highly improbable and closer inspection will be needed of a dice that could consistently roll such a string.
So yes I will call over a judge should I think your agressive behavoir is such to warrant that.

It is after all only a game and if you can't win fairly why play at all???

It's a good point, though... I've never actually had someone pick up and roll my dice. I've never seen anyone do it in a game, at least as far as I was aware. Around here, we use our own dice... almost everybody's a bit superstitious about their dice in gaming from what I've seen, and it's bad mojo for an opponent to handle them (just like it's totally uncool to handle my models without asking).

If someone asked me, I'd say I prefer they used their own dice... if they thought something was up, they can check mine- but seeing as how they're a standard GW brick (and the ones before that were standard chessex) there's not much to see...

I know this adds nothing to the conversation at hand, but really how badly do you need to win with your little toy soldiers in a game where everyone is supposed to be having fun? My vote is, if you really need to cheat to win, fine, cheat. Frankly guys who cheat with dice I am rarely going to run into. I figure people cheat more frequently f***ing up stats or special rules of armies.

I don't know a good way to deal with this. Issue I'd have is either
1.) He isn't cheating & will take offense to the accusation.
2.) He is & will fake offense to get me off his back.

I'd try to explain as politely as possible I think his dice may have been tampered with and ask him to switch them or use some of mine. If he makes an over dramatic response or it continues I'd request a TO.

Call me Naive, but I like to think people don't want to win so bad they use loaded dice, it just seems ridiculous.

I know it happens of course, but I don't think I'd ever accuse someone of it.. it's a game, I mean it's supposed to be fun, and that is certainly ruining someone else's fun.

I'd prefer to take my own dice to a tournament, but If they supplied their own, it would be fine as well.

Tyyr wrote:
Wanna accuse me of cheating, fine. Call the judge and when he's done inspecting my dice and declaring you an idiot I'll accidentally whing one of my solid steel D20's at your lovingly painted termie to remind you that a good grasp of statistics and an understanding of how the human mind can find patterns in random noise would serve you well.

O.K. I'll call the TO back & accuse you of whipping a solid steel d20 at one of my terminators & have you kicked out anyway as:

1.) You have no need for a d20 to even be in your hand during game (Before maybe to mark deployment zone)
2.) You can't claim "Accidental" because if it had enough force to break one of my terminators it clearly wasn't an accident. Especially because if it was whipped chances are it is landing no where close to what you could call an "accidental" drop.

So a good grasp of physics and an understanding of how to keep your temper would serve you well.

I have a set of loaded dice. Three sets actually....one set rolls 4's, 5's and 6's, one set rolls 1's, 2's, and 3's. Th last set are normal dice. They are chessex sized dice, black with white pips. If you looked at them on the table they look normal, no weird lines or anything. If you roll them and watch, you can sometimes see a few roll weird, but if you roll a large group, you can't tell.

I bought them off a guy on Ebay, who said he used thrm to win a couple fantasy RTT's in New Jersey. This is the same guy who, through shifty dealings, made GW stop selling bitz by the weight at Gamesday.

If I knew where they were, I'd take a pic of them and post them. I bought them because at the time I was working in a FLGS running warhammer, and I wanted to be able to spot loaded dice, and be able to prove it. I usually took them with me to a tourney and I'd show them to people so they would know what to look for, but I have no clue where they got to....


Automatically Appended Next Post:


Oh, and I refuse to use small dice. I dislocated my pinky rock climbing years ago, and I have a hard time scooping up the small dice....

You have no clue where the dice got to? (You said "they" so it's hard to tell...) Maybe someone's using them to win their own RTT's now

I hate cheaters - as can be expected.

I also hate being accused of cheating.

Personally I own 36 red Chessex dice, 16 FoW Soviet dice, and about 20 AT-43 Red Blok dice . . . and if anyone accuses me of believing communism is a great idea . . . well you may well be right lol

On square-edged dice . . . it has been proven that when using 2 or 3 dice, such as after wound allocation, or doing Ld checks. You can easily pre-determine the roll of the dice by how you put the dice in your hand, and how you roll them. I would say they should be banned at tournaments for this reason. If anyone is unsure about this, just look it up on Youtube. It gets to a point, where the roller can know what side of the die is facing where just by how they feel in his hand - where the pips are. It's a bit silly really, but I know a couple of mates who can do it, it's amazing to watch.

Also when rolling scatter dice, if you roll it a certain way you can increase the probability of rolling a hit to around 50%

Sadly these methods are hard to spot in a tournament, so the best way to stop it is ban casino-style square edged dice. And hope the scatter dice roller isn't using loads of artillery or deep strike =/

Oshova

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:Oh Internet Tough Guy, did you know that breaking someone's hand when they went for your dice would get you kicked out of the tourney (and probably arrested) regardless of whether or not you were actually cheating? And that if you don't warn, "Don't touch" your opponent has no way to reasonably expect you to flip out?

The sonic boom over your head was the point making a flyby. Hyperbole isn't your strong suit is it?

Besides, how were you raised that grabbing someone else's things without permission is just fine?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shas'O Dorian wrote:O.K. I'll call the TO back & accuse you of whipping a solid steel d20 at one of my terminators & have you kicked out anyway as:

1.) You have no need for a d20 to even be in your hand during game (Before maybe to mark deployment zone)
2.) You can't claim "Accidental" because if it had enough force to break one of my terminators it clearly wasn't an accident. Especially because if it was whipped chances are it is landing no where close to what you could call an "accidental" drop.

So a good grasp of physics and an understanding of how to keep your temper would serve you well.

By all means, don't let obvious sarcasm get in the way of you storming the moral high ground.

Protip: if nobody finds your sarcasm funny
its not funny

Ahh the spirit and camaraderie of tourney play...

Thing is, I've seen such massive runs of lucky by people who I KNOW are not using loaded dice, that it'd take something really suspicious for me to accuse someone at a tourney. After all, if I know that it can happen on its own, how can I possibly attribute ridiculously good luck to loaded dice?

On the whole use my dice/not use my dice thing, I could care less. If someone wants to use my dice for EVERYTHING, I think I'd be a little pissed off, but if they need some extras for something (miasma wounds against my orks mobz come to mind), or just want to use mine because they're handy, they are more than welcome to. Just like I offer people the use of my GF9 Tac template if they seem in need, I'll offer my dice. That's part of being a good sportsman, I think.

LOL why cant I ever find people to play like Tyyr, it would be worth double the price of admission to kick they gak out of him...

PS. I wouldnt worried about getting kicked out, I am going to lose most of my games anyway.

I say to thee dead thread... RISE, RISE!!!!

I played a friendly pick up game once with a guy who was my team mate and insisted, upon this important roll, I roll his dice. Strangly enough..they wobbled upon the table and just didn't feel right. Needless to say I never played with him again.

Matthias wrote:We have this simple rule in our Code of Conduct:

Dice: AdeptiCon does not require the use any specific type of dice, however your dice must ALWAYS be made available to your opponent to use if they so desire. AdeptiCon reserves the right to remove any dice showing excessive wear, obvious tampering or other questionable deformities.

I think this is a great policy.

insaniak wrote:Most people, particularly if they are using cheaper dice (which tend to be less well balanced) over time find that certain dice tend to roll high, and others to roll low. So the less scrupulous player will quite often set dice aside for certain rolls, depending on how those dice tend to fall.

A lot of them won't even think of it as cheating... the dice are 'technically' fine, as they're not specifically weighted. I'll admit to doing it myself in the past before I stopped and actually thought about it.

I did this in high school, but later on had the same realization- i.e., stopped to think about it, realized it wasn't kosher, and never did it again.

I have encountered players who use only certain dice for certain rolls, and agree with those who have posted that it is very close to "cheating".

At a major event, either sharing dice, or having people use dice specifically made for the event are great strategies. It would also help stop the phenomenon of using the Large casino dice, or worse, "bone" dice (with raised edges, very easy to manipulate the roll of).


Edit: As pointed out above, it looks like this thread had been a month old 4 posts ago... I wouldn't be offended it if were locked, now that I've noticed that

I would be horribly offended should a lock come down upon it. This thread needs to continue well on into the year as it is full of vital information! I demand a sticky!

Yea, just share Dice if the person complains and doesn't want to, ask them why. Don't be afraid to question.