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Well, since nobody would help me out in my P&M blog, may as well try here, might get at least one reply... So, basically I'm building up a blood ravens army, and have a bit of interest in the blood angels, I like the sound of the potential rules and especially since they've got an update coming. Now you're probably thinking, why not paint your army as Blood Angels from the get go, fact is, I hate the colour scheme, it's too bland, just red upon red upon red with a little bit of black or gold here and there. Same goes for their successor chapters. After playing through the Dawn of War games several times over, I've grown quite attached to the Blood Ravens, and as the fluff goes, they've lost all information on their history, and importantly, their primarch.

Now, say you're at a tourney or having a game at a FLGS, and a guy shows up with what appears to be Blood Ravens, but says ''They're using Blood Angels rules''. Would you object?

Marushi wrote:Well, since nobody would help me out in my P&M blog, may as well try here, might get at least one reply... So, basically I'm building up a blood ravens army, and have a bit of interest in the blood angels, I like the sound of the potential rules and especially since they've got an update coming. Now you're probably thinking, why not paint your army as Blood Angels from the get go, fact is, I hate the colour scheme, it's too bland, just red upon red upon red with a little bit of black or gold here and there. Same goes for their successor chapters. After playing through the Dawn of War games several times over, I've grown quite attached to the Blood Ravens, and as the fluff goes, they've lost all information on their history, and importantly, their primarch.

Now, say you're at a tourney or having a game at a FLGS, and a guy shows up with what appears to be Blood Ravens, but says ''They're using Blood Angels rules''. Would you object?

As long as you say "These are Counts as Blood Angels", go nuts.

Well over much dispute the blood ravens are a Blood Angels Successor, No matter what people say.
So yeah that will be good and cool -.-

Counts as in this regard is perfectly acceptable. You are using marines from a chapter with no 'clear' progenitor which means technically you're not even
using counts as, you're using the old 'successor chapter' clause to use a diff color scheme to represent what is essentially the same army, which just happens
to be Blood Ravens.

Super, thanks for the replies folks

i think it would be more appropriate for Blood Ravens to be vanilla marines as they've been mentioned in one way or another in the codex since at least 4th edition. But then again if your asking if it would be appropriate to play blood ravens as blood angels to hope aboard the new codex, how can anyone stop you

Zain60 wrote:Counts as in this regard is perfectly acceptable. You are using marines from a chapter with no 'clear' progenitor which means technically you're not even
using counts as, you're using the old 'successor chapter' clause to use a diff color scheme to represent what is essentially the same army, which just happens
to be Blood Ravens.

Um, where are you getting this from?

In fact, I'm fairly sure that the Blood Ravens do NOT come from Blood Angel stock...

Alpharius wrote:

Zain60 wrote:Counts as in this regard is perfectly acceptable. You are using marines from a chapter with no 'clear' progenitor which means technically you're not even
using counts as, you're using the old 'successor chapter' clause to use a diff color scheme to represent what is essentially the same army, which just happens
to be Blood Ravens.

I never said they did. I was pointing out that he's not really playing a counts as army, which to me would be more like an entire army of adeptus mechanicus converted troops using
space marine rules. I said he wasn't using counts as, but more just using blood angels with a different color scheme since the models will be the same. He's not going to take a pred
and use Baal predator rules, he's going to take a Baal Pred and call it a Baal pred. More appropraitely on an individual scale is using his Space Marine Captain (painted as a blood raven)
in place of Dante or some other BA hero. That's actually counts as rather than alternate paint schemes.

To me the way he's doing this is the same as me using white color scheme for my black templars and calling them the white knights or something in that regard. I know that Blood Ravens
are a 'made up' chapter from a game that has gotten popular because of that, and due to that fact I don't really think it's as 'counts as' as playing a yellow painted Imperial Fist army and saying
'Hey these are Blood Angels' because that is what I call ... bad.

I was making a correlary to the old 'successor chapter' rules, not saying that they ARE a successor chapter, which I am also fairly certain they are not.

Alpharius wrote: Um, where are you getting this from?

I thought at first you were trying to be condescending, which I hope is not the case. I'm sure it was just me not being as crystal clear as possible on a simple issue like this.

OP: Hope we get to see some pics. I, too, dislike the BA scheme, but I do like Flesh Tearers theme.

Yes. counts as is perfectly acceptable.

I seem to remember it being rumored over the last few years that they are descended from Thousand Sons somehow.

jw7007 wrote:Yes. counts as is perfectly acceptable.

I seem to remember it being rumored over the last few years that they are descended from Thousand Sons somehow.

Heretics! *cough* *cough* Yea, there's some leftover zeal from my BT days. Is there any 'literature' supporting that in the game or from GW?

Zain60 wrote:

jw7007 wrote:Yes. counts as is perfectly acceptable.

I seem to remember it being rumored over the last few years that they are descended from Thousand Sons somehow.

Heretics! *cough* *cough* Yea, there's some leftover zeal from my BT days. Is there any 'literature' supporting that in the game or from GW?

Yeah, the Index Astartes Article leans heavily on that hint.

jw7007 wrote:Yes. counts as is perfectly acceptable.

I seem to remember it being rumored over the last few years that they are descended from Thousand Sons somehow.

The Dawn of War books also play to this idea quite liberally. VERY liberally.

hungryp wrote:

jw7007 wrote:Yes. counts as is perfectly acceptable.

I seem to remember it being rumored over the last few years that they are descended from Thousand Sons somehow.

The Dawn of War books also play to this idea quite liberally. VERY liberally.

The Dawn of War Books were written by C.S. Goto. ergo, we ignore them.

Tbh, I don't want to start a fluff-fest, but it was more just a question of since they share the '" Blood' prefix, would it fit?"

Although, knowing little of the BL and chapters involved, I'd be interested in reading some of the books the BR are in, if any that is.

And on that note, maybe this should move to dakka discussion?

Gwar! wrote:]The Dawn of War Books were written by C.S. Goto. ergo, we ignore them.

Fair enough, I play BA, so I know how that goes!

I was going to say Goto and Swallow should go head-to-head in a suck-off...but that would just sound vulgar.

As for the whole point of this thread: there's nothing that keeps you from being able to use whatever colour scheme and chapter iconography you want to represent your chapter of choice. Heck, the Marine codex gives explicit permission to use a specific chapter's characters in any chapter you want. As long as your opponent knows the blue Marines lined up against him aren't UltraSmurfs, you're free to paint them as you like.