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Just a little something I'm doing for history in my final year.

Making good progress, but I thought I'd just get Dakka's thoughts on Cuba and indeed the whole Cold War situation. While I'm happy for this to be an in-depth discussion and would thoroughly enjoy it, I'd also welcome any sources you can reference to that are reliable.

The Main Question I'm working on is:
Was the Cuban Missile Crisis the result of an Over-Agressive US Foreign Policy?

This question covers pretty much everything:
-The Cuban Revolution
-The Bay of Pigs
-Operation Mongoose (Castro's survival record )
-Space/Arms Race ect.
-Nuclear Weapons
-Missiles in Turkey
-Kennedy's Leadership
-Kruschev's Leadership
-Anything else you can think of

I'm going to stick my hand in a beehive here and say that I think America was acting irrationally and wasn't doing enough to calm the situation.

Like what?

Emperors Faithful wrote:The Main Question I'm working on is:
Was the Cuban Missile Crisis the result of an Over-Agressive US Foreign Policy?

The short answer would be yes. The longer answer would be yes, but the USSR was as aggressive, they were just acting on a delay as their nuke tech caught up to the US.

The long, long answer would be yes, but so were the Russians and aren't powerful states always a little too aggressive. By the historical record, the US and USSR showed remarkable restraint compared to the super powers of eras gone by.

sebster wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:The Main Question I'm working on is:
Was the Cuban Missile Crisis the result of an Over-Agressive US Foreign Policy?

The short answer would be yes. The longer answer would be yes, but the USSR was as aggressive, they were just acting on a delay as their nuke tech caught up to the US.

The long, long answer would be yes, but so were the Russians and aren't powerful states always a little too aggressive. By the historical record, the US and USSR showed remarkable restraint compared to the super powers of eras gone by.

Exactly what my thesis is. Good to see we agree on this.
I'm not going to be basing my thesis on what's said in this thread, indeed I've mostly finished the draft aleady. But I would like to see some discussion, and besides, more references never hurt. They may be shoddy references, but they're MY shoddy references.

Dammit, I was hoping the footnotes would look something like this;


1. Sebster, http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/283047.page
2. Ibid
3. Ibid
4. Ibid
5. Ibid
6. Ibid

Ibid means the same source as the one quoted above. In other words, everything would be quoted from himself in another post.


And yes, the americans were overly aggressive, because they didn't want to play tit for tat. They had nukes in turkey, but weren't so keen on the idea of exactly the same threat staring back at them. In the end, the whole thing got defused, and the Russian Premier got to be the peacemaker, and show how much he cared for international stability, and the American President got to show that he'd seen those damn commies off and shown them what's what.

It involved Cubans I think, and my Dad, but like no Tex Mex.

It was George Bush's fault.

I had always been taught that it was the nasty, naughty commies threatening America by putting nuclear weapons only 90 miles away from Miami for no reason...

Found out later that they put 'em there in response to us putting intermediate-range nuclear missles in Turkey aimed at the Soviet Union, and that us removing those missiles went a long way towards defusing the situation. Go figure.

BTW - I live in Greenville, SC - we have a local memorial for the only US soldier killed in the Cuban Missile Crisis by enemy action - he was a U-2 pilot that was shot down on a recon mission over Cuba by Soviet SA-2 missiles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Anderson

The soviets , unable to match the USA in the build up of ICBMS decided that a policy of deploying Intermediate range weapons would be an effective counter to the Kennedy administrations massive military build up.

Kennedy had embarked on a massive ramp up of military spending and contextually The USA, since Truman, had reacted to estimates of the USSRS military capabilities, which were overblown assessments of potential than any actual physical capacity or capabilities. Political rivals used these 'facts' to their own ends stating 'bomber gaps' and 'missile gaps' when in fact the USA was already superior in the amount active nuclear warheads and delivery systems when Kennedy came to power.

Thanks to intelligence from other sources and the use of military satellites Kennedy knew that he had an advantage over the soviets, he had learned that the USA had more available atomic delivery systems and a better offensive capability. Kennedy was able to make a calculated stand against Krushchev.

However Krushchev was fully prepared to use whatever he had available even ordering that an R7 launcher standing at Baikonour be refitted from its space mission to carry an armed nuclear warhead. The soviets, thinking that the west knew about their lack of weapons assumed that a strike would eventually be made against them.
Kennedy did not now that Kruschev thought himself boxed into a corner.

Kruschev sent two letters to Kennedy, in the first he appeared emotionally strained the second was much more business like.

Kennedy responded and Kruschev found he had and honourable way out. He did later state that is was Kennedy who had backed down.

Try and get hold of The end of the American Century by Jeffery Robinson. A brilliant book detailing the soviet efforts to get a man into space and how American policy was scattered before then refocused by this event. particularly in the years up to the Cuban Crisis.

Commissar Molotov wrote:I had always been taught that it was the nasty, naughty commies threatening America by putting nuclear weapons only 90 miles away from Miami for no reason...

Found out later that they put 'em there in response to us putting intermediate-range nuclear missles in Turkey aimed at the Soviet Union, and that us removing those missiles went a long way towards defusing the situation. Go figure.

BTW - I live in Greenville, SC - we have a local memorial for the only US soldier killed in the Cuban Missile Crisis by enemy action - he was a U-2 pilot that was shot down on a recon mission over Cuba by Soviet SA-2 missiles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Anderson

He wasn't the only one. Maybe the only one publicly admitted to.

Missile Crisis, or Bay of Pigs, Frazz? There wouldn't have been too many other opportunities for US soldiers to get killed in the Missile Crisis.

Both actually. There were other things going on at the time.

Frazzled wrote:Both actually. There were other things going on at the time.

Very true, there were a lot of covert ops going on at the time throughout both NATO and the Warsaw pact. For the most part senior members of all the involved administrations had very real memories of the 2 nukes which effectively ended Japans role in WW2, with this in mind they kept any loses hushed or reported as training accidents to keep people for demanding an eye for an eye, as I genuinely believe that nobody involved wanted a nuclear conflict.

squilverine wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Both actually. There were other things going on at the time.

Very true, there were a lot of covert ops going on at the time throughout both NATO and the Warsaw pact. For the most part senior members of all the involved administrations had very real memories of the 2 nukes which effectively ended Japans role in WW2, with this in mind they kept any loses hushed or reported as training accidents to keep people for demanding an eye for an eye, as I genuinely believe that nobody involved wanted a nuclear conflict.

Yep.

As I understand the situation, The American Missles in Turkey were more or less overt. The Soviet Missles in Cuba were essentially covert. The Soviets knew the U.S. had missles in Turkey. The U.S. learned about the soviet missles through photos taken by U-2 fly-overs of Cuba.

Of course I am several decades from any Social Studies/History Classes, and never had a real interest in the early days of the cold war.

Frazzled wrote:It was George Bush's fault.

Obama's been in office more than year now, and he still hasn't done anything about the Cuban Missile Crisis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

helgrenze wrote:As I understand the situation, The American Missles in Turkey were more or less overt. The Soviet Missles in Cuba were essentially covert. The Soviets knew the U.S. had missles in Turkey. The U.S. learned about the soviet missles through photos taken by U-2 fly-overs of Cuba.

The Soviets new about the missiles, but that was never the intent of the US and Turks. The missiles were meant to be secret - the locations of deployment in Turkey is still technically a Turkish secret.

The issue was actually that although only recently deployed, the missiles were already obsolete. The Russians didn't know this, all they knew was that the US had deployed missiles in Turkey that could conceivably hit key Soviet cities as part of first strike.

The US was happy to remove them as they weren't a useful part of their strategic defence plan by that point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Sorry, just a joke saying you were going to reference nothing but this thread for your assignment.

sebster wrote:

Frazzled wrote:It was George Bush's fault.

Obama's been in office more than year now, and he still hasn't done anything about the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Well hopefully with reconciliation, the Cuban Missile Crisis can finally be addressed.

Just make concession and promise relief aid. Tack another Billion Schmuckers to the debt and make pretty smiles all around for the press...... OH and have a beer or three.

sebster wrote:

The issue was actually that although only recently deployed, the missiles were already obsolete. The Russians didn't know this, all they knew was that the US had deployed missiles in Turkey that could conceivably hit key Soviet cities as part of first strike.

The US was happy to remove them as they weren't a useful part of their strategic defence plan by that point.

Kennedy had ordered the missiles removed when he came into office in '61 but the army delayed removal...Phew

Mr. Burning wrote:

sebster wrote:

The issue was actually that although only recently deployed, the missiles were already obsolete. The Russians didn't know this, all they knew was that the US had deployed missiles in Turkey that could conceivably hit key Soviet cities as part of first strike.

The US was happy to remove them as they weren't a useful part of their strategic defence plan by that point.

Kennedy had ordered the missiles removed when he came into office in '61 but the army delayed removal...Phew

Really? I'd like to see some sort of source supporting that.

sebster wrote:

helgrenze wrote:As I understand the situation, The American Missles in Turkey were more or less overt. The Soviet Missles in Cuba were essentially covert. The Soviets knew the U.S. had missles in Turkey. The U.S. learned about the soviet missles through photos taken by U-2 fly-overs of Cuba.

The Soviets new about the missiles, but that was never the intent of the US and Turks. The missiles were meant to be secret - the locations of deployment in Turkey is still technically a Turkish secret.

The issue was actually that although only recently deployed, the missiles were already obsolete. The Russians didn't know this, all they knew was that the US had deployed missiles in Turkey that could conceivably hit key Soviet cities as part of first strike.

The US was happy to remove them as they weren't a useful part of their strategic defence plan by that point.

Really?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Sorry, just a joke saying you were going to reference nothing but this thread for your assignment.

Ah, I get it.

Kennedy's approach to the Crisis appeared to be the middle ground.

http://www.atomicarchive.com/History/coldwar/page13.shtml

The US was suprised to find nukes capable of striking the US right in the former potential US state of Cuba (remember America considers the Carrib islands and NA it's home turf).

Kennedy's advisors either wanted him to pre-empt the missiles or seek a diplomatic solution. Akin to Lincoln's moderate and at times conservative way of handling a crisis, the United States deployed military force and a diplomatic blitz to shift the burden of starting a potential war to the Soviet's shoulders.

Russia backed away, suprised the Americans would act in such a highly sensitive and overblown way (in what the Russians were doing, America had already done so in Western Europe with garrisoned troops and bombers ready for first strike capabilities against Russian cities).

In short, Russians thought they overreacted and American (Kennedy) thought he followed a middle ground approach.

P.S. Alot of what I said is not found at the link. You have to interpret events based on what you find, and unfortunately alot of what I found on the Cuban Missile Crisis is lost in the University library and the internet from a few years ago. Use wikipedia and search engines to sift through what you need.

I wouldn't say that the crisis was caused by over aggressive American foreign policy, I think it was just a natural by-product of the game of escalation in the cold war.

It technically does and it doesn't have to do with an over aggressive policy. The Soviets used the crisis as more of a barganning tool against the U.S. The U.S had and still has missile silos in turkey as this was the closest ally at the time with a quick shot at Russia. The Soviets during the crisis stated onnumerous occassions that if the Americans removed these bases then they would do the same. The U.S Gov't under kennedy had no desire to do such a thing as these bases were our "ace in the whole" if you will against Russia. Any nuclear missiles launched between the two nations would have to go over the poles and early warning detection systems would pick them up. On average it was said 45 minutes it would take to travel from one country to the other, and in the meantime the other country can launch.

With the silos in Turkey you were looking at no more then 12 minutes which gave the U.S the capability to knock out almost 75% of Soviet Missiles. Krusteve(I know I misspelled that) knew that if he put in cuba then he could hit the U.s in 5 minutes and as such he helped fortify the nation at large. The U.S counteracted this with a naval blockcade and told them any russian ship that attempted to pass it would be boarded or sunk, and if you commit a hostile act against another nations vessels in international water that is grounds as an act of war(though the U.S didn't seem to think so when isreal butcherd the U.S.S Liberty in the 80s but another topic another time).

So on some levels yes the crisis wasn't as much a move to actually counter the U.S's aggressive policies as it was a bargaining chip for Russia, and as I recall they did get something out of it but not the bases in Turkey... we still hold those

P.S the bay of pigs incident believe it or not was worse for the U.S because Castro was in his early years receptive towards us. After the Bay of pigs though all bets were off.

There was no missle crisis...

What really happened was Frazzled and myself opened a gun shop in Cuba and then President Kennedy feared the massive fair market fallout in Texas gun prices, for he knew that America couldnt compete with us on the wholesale market.

The straw that broke the camels back was when Frazzled ordered some "Bottle Rockets" from Russia....

Exactly. As I said, family history.

jp400 wrote:There was no missle crisis...

What really happened was Frazzled and myself opened a gun shop in Cuba and then President Kennedy feared the massive fair market fallout in Texas gun prices, for he knew that America couldnt compete with us on the wholesale market.

The straw that broke the camels back was when Frazzled ordered some "Bottle Rockets" from Russia....

Frazzled wrote:Exactly. As I said, family history.

hahahhahahha.... TRUE STORY.. oo side note frazzeld your dog pic of him drinking form a tacobell cup is now the backround on my computers at work. I thought it was too cute.

It is cute isn't. It looks like Captain Needy at a younger age. Now he's older and will shank you. I have to respect that.

@Empchild: From what I could gather, Kennedy made a secret pact to remove the Missiles in Turkey some months after the crisis abated. In that way, he could save face and claim a victory, while actually giving in.

Why do you believe that there were still US Missile Bases in Turkey afterwards?