Mixing Marines?

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**Gornall**

I have a similar topic going in the Tournament section but wanted to pose the question of what people think of running the same set of Marines with a different codex game to game? For example, I have about 3/4 of the Second Company of Ultrasmurfs modeled and painted, including enough vehicles to make Aurora Chapter proud. However, with GW updating the SW and BA codicies and models, I find myself wanting to take model and play with of some of the new units like the Sang Guard, Librarian Dreads, and TWC. However, I don't want to buy a bunch more Tacticals, Speeders, Rhinos, etc just to paint them a different color so I can use one new unit, so I intend to file off most of the chapter specific bling and convert/paint the units to match my Ultras. Is this kosher? I've had a few people mention they would have a hard time playing against Ultras as SW, so I'm curious as to what Dakka thinks. Also, how does your answer change if:

It's a DIY chapter?
It's a vanilla codex chapter such as Hawk Lords or Howling Gryphons?
It's a casual game?
It's a RTT/GT game? Does it affect the softscores?

**Dracos**

It's a DIY chapter?
-Best to do it with DIY as there is no fluff to break.

It's a vanilla codex chapter such as Hawk Lords or Howling Gryphons?
-Any other chapter with established fluff (DA, Gryphons, anything) will be harder to swallow as they are already defined in fluff.

It's a casual game?
-Opponents consent always, but sure.

It's a RTT/GT game? Does it affect the softscores?
-Its up the the TO. It would likely affect softscores.

**Kolath**

As a fellow Ultramarine 2nd company player, I definitely sympathize. I started my ultras back in middle school (2nd ed) when I picked them because I like blue and they were on the box :-P. Then when I rediscovered 40k after college (5th ed!) I stuck with 2nd company since I had so many models already, but I would have done something else if I could start again.

I would say, as long as your opponent is okay with it, I don't see any reason why you couldn't use the models with another chapter's rules.

**Gornall**

@Kolath: Part of the reason I chose Ultras were because I thought they were the most tactical/flexible and less one dimensional than some of the other chapters, which fits my idea of trying just about every army list at least once. I love the fluff and the Ultra models (Honor Guard and TWVs) but sometimes I wish I had went DIY to avoid fluff conflicts.

Anyone else want to chime in?

**Ashtaroth**

well my chapter (Currently Sons of the tempest until i come up with a name that is actually, you know, good) uses ultramarine rules (and crimson fists technically speaking- pedro kantor is included) but doesn't look remotely like the ultrasmurfs. I suppose it depends on the rules of the tournament in question, or if your opponent doesn't mind.

**Gornall**

That's perfectly legal according to the SM: Codex.

**The Dreadnote**

As long as your opponents are clear on what is currently counting as what, it's as legal as any other counts-as situation.

**Gwar!**

DIY Chapter/Chapter without a codex: Go Nuts.

Space Wolves using BA Rules/Ultramarines using BA Rules/Dark Angels using SW Rules: No. (Personal Opinion)

**Gornall**

No RAW on that Gwar! ?

In all seriousness, why do you feel that way?

**Gwar!**

Gornall wrote:No RAW on that Gwar! ? In all seriousness, why do you feel that way?

Because I lovingly stuck to my Space Wolves for 11 years, even when they sucked and needed a bajillion rules changed to work and I could have done them but better with the 4th ed marine codex and it pisses me off to see people go "ooooh shiney" and use their DA or UM as Space Wolves.

**DEATH89**

I don't like counts as with named chapters either, thats why I have small to medium marine armies I do occasionally mix my ultras, raven guard and crimson fists but only when a character from both is there, doesn't seem right otherwise

**4M2A**

At first I would have said no they should stick to one. But then I realised that if someone wanted to play multiple SM armies they would need to buy the same models lots of times which is pointless and to expect them to do it is unreasonable IMO.

Gwar your point is reasonable if they are doing it to play the most powerful army but they may well just want some variation.

I think people are most likely to accept it if you paint them as a custom chapter. Painted as ultras I would find that it just didn't seem right, I would still play them but it would seem a bit odd. The UM probably could field an army that would fight similar to SW or BA but it just isn't what I have grown to expect from UM. However a custom chapter without any preconcieved ideas about how they work would be a lot easier. I know someone who does this and none of our group have any problems.

**Gornall**

4M2A wrote:At first I would have said no they should stick to one. But then I realised that if someone wanted to play multiple SM armies they would need to buy the same models lots of times which is pointless and to expect them to do it is unreasonable IMO.

This is my biggest reason. I don't want to have to buy a bunch more Rhinos/LRs/Tacticals/Landspeeders/etc just so I can fiddle around with 1-2 different units from the other codex. I'm a tightwad.

**kaptaink**

Just tell people what it is and it shouldn't matter. Are colours really that big of a deal?

**Kolath**

kaptaink wrote:Just tell people what it is and it shouldn't matter. Are colours really that big of a deal?

This.

I don't really have a strong attachment to fluff, so I could care less as long as the counts-as is reasonable from an equipment standpoint. You have a captain with a power fist and storm bolter and want to have him count as Pedro? Go for it. I think the fun factor should trump.

**Gornall**

One argument I can see for "play your paint job" is the fact that with GWs latest releases, the sheer amount of bits and chapter specific iconography is pretty staggering. The visual differences are not just lismited to the paintjob anymore. I'm almost tempted to start up a DIY chapter just to use all the crazy bling that is available.

**Cevyr**

I say you can't use a chapter that has been defined as something else. It's just wrong to the fluff. Really what sets apart everything from one another is the fluff, stick with what you have and use it as painted. Plus if you have a desire to play another chapter this just give the incentive to build another army and new challenges.

**Lorgar's_Blessed**

My friend wants to use the BA Codex when it comes out for his BT. I and my gaming group outright said no. He chose BT for the theme and such, not for the rules. If he dislikes the rules now, tough shet.

But in my opinion, so long as it isn't SW using BA, or BT using BA, or DA using BA, etc., then I'd have no problems. I do have a bit of issues with UM using BA because they are what the Codex Astartes is supposed to represent, but a Custom Chapter or a less codex-following chapter I'd have no problem with.

**LiberatedObject**

I personally don't mind people doing it, but I am painting DA and use their codex. It just feels right.

**Gornall**

Cevyr wrote:I say you can't use a chapter that has been defined as something else. It's just wrong to the fluff. Really what sets apart everything from one another is the fluff, stick with what you have and use it as painted. Plus if you have a desire to play another chapter this just give the incentive to build another army and new challenges.

GW's fluff changes so much that I have a hard time justifying locking people into an army just on that. And I argue that the desire to play another chapter gives you incentive to build another army of the exact same models (with a few exceptions) and just paint them differently. I'd rather put that money and effort into a completely different army like Tau, Eldar, or IG. I think it provides a way for more variety in games for both yourself and your opponent. My gaming group didn't have a SW player until someone starting running their Imperial Fists as SWs, so him switching shook up our meta by adding an army into the mix that we normally didn't face.

**Anpu42**

I like all of the Chapters, so rather than create a bunch of Chapters I am going to theme each Company based on the different Chapters, Special Characters and Codex’s. I do not plan on mixing companies on the field unless it is set up like the LFGS’s Gods of War Tournament [6,000 points 2 armies] or maybe Apocalypse.

Company [Rules] Special Character
1st The Tiger Claws [ Dark Angles] Belile/Chaplin [TDA]
2nd Reclusiam [Grey Knights] ??/??
3rd Ecclesiastic [Black Templers] ??/??
4th Tactical [Dark Angles] Azrael/Ezekiel
5th Tactical [Space Marines] Kayvaan Shrike/Chaplin [JP]
6th Tactical [Space Marines] Pedro Kantor/Librarian
7th Purgatory [Space Marines] Calgar/Vulcan He’stan
8th Assault [Blood Angles] ??/??
9th Support [Space Marines] Antaro Chronus/MotF
10th Scout [Space Marines] Cato Sicatius/Kor’sarro Khan

**Inanimate**

As long as you don't try pass off scouts as Terminators, I'm fine with it. I have a Black Templars army, but I've begun repainting them (they were/are black and white) in white and silver. Should I be forced to use C:SM because of that? Furthermore, I'm considering starting up a Deathwing chapter which is going to follow the same theme as my "White Templars" instead of bone and green.

It's a game FFS. You shouldn't be punished because you made a poor decision regarding the colour scheme.

**Gornall**

I have to say I'm pretty encouraged by the results. I honestly expected more pushback.

**Gwar!**

Gornall wrote:I have to say I'm pretty encouraged by the results. I honestly expected more pushback.

Just remember there is a fine line between "Counts as" and "I'm using Codex XYZ because this week I need it to beat you".

**Lorgar's_Blessed**

Gwar! wrote:
Gornall wrote:I have to say I'm pretty encouraged by the results. I honestly expected more pushback.
Just remember there is a fine line between "Counts as" and "I'm using Codex XYZ because this week I need it to beat you".

Exactly what I was getting at earlier in the thread.

**Gornall**

I'm not sure if I understand the difference... whether the intent is for variety or moar powa, what does it matter?

**Lorgar's_Blessed**

Gornall wrote:I'm not sure if I understand the difference... whether the intent is for variety or moar powa, what does it matter?

The point is the reason behind it. Most of us have issues with uber-power gamers who take the game too seriously. It's your choice, but in the end, prepare to feel it in your soft score at tournaments.

**Gornall**

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:The point is the reason behind it. Most of us have issues with uber-fluff nazis who take the fluff too seriously.

I see what you're saying, though. I just don't see how Ultras (who use the SM codex) using a different codex is any more "powergamey" than a DIY chapter (which also uses the SM codex) using a different codex.

**TheTrueProtoman**

I can see where people are coming from with power gamers, but on the long run I have no problem of people trying out a codex, deciding they love it more then the old one, after time they remodel their units and paint them.

**Oshova**

Personally, my marines are a generic homemade chapter to do with Dark Angels (my favourite chapter) so 90% of the time I play them as DA. But I do like to try out the other SM variant codices. I have a few models in dresses, and quite a few DA symbols. But their armer is grey, their cloaks are blue. I know a few tournaments would just say no, but most say yes, as they're not DA . . . they're special lol

Especially when playing them as vanilla SM it's easy to bend the fluff. They're a sub-chapter of the Dark Angels who still follow the codex. But yes, playing them as SW, BA, or BT would be so hard to fit in fluffwise. Ohwell, it's all good in casual games, and my local tournaments. =D

Oshova