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OK, a couple questions on the Dark Eldar Crucible of Malediction. They both are related to whether or not its use counts as a shooting attack.

1) Can a character locked in CC use the crucible? You can't shoot out of CC, but the crucible description doesn't specifically say that it counts as shooting.
2) If a character uses the crucible, does the rest of the squad get to shoot? It states that the bearer may not shoot in the same turn, but does the rest of the squad shooting count as the character shooting?

I looked in both the INAT and GW FAQs, and neither mentioned these issues.

afireinside13t wrote:1) Can a character locked in CC use the crucible? You can't shoot out of CC, but the crucible description doesn't specifically say that it counts as shooting.

You have to do it "instead of shooting". If you are locked in assault, you cannot shoot, so you cannot do something instead of shooting because you cannot shoot to begin with, the same way that a stunned/shaken Fire Prism cannot link with another Fire Prism instead of shooting.

2) If a character uses the crucible, does the rest of the squad get to shoot? It states that the bearer may not shoot in the same turn, but does the rest of the squad shooting count as the character shooting?

The rest of the squad may shoot.

The real question though is why are you using the CoM? It's utter garbage.

Thanks for the quick reply. I've been using it lately due to the recent proponderence of psykers (wolves and nids) and the fact that Eldrad has whooped my ass in 2 of the last 3 tournies I've played in. Even having a 1/36 or 1/18 chance of insta-gibbing a 200 point character with a 20 point piece of gear is just too hilarious for me to pass up.

He does have a point. With the seemingly increasing number of psykers out there (especially considering the upcoming BA codex), something that has even a small chance of whacking an enemy psyker anywhere on the board for only 20 points isn't terrible. Also, for armies that have multiple psykers, the utility goes up, as the other player keeps making tests until either a psyker fails it's Ld test or all psykers have passed.

And, for even the highest lead psykers, it's 1/12 chance of killing it.

I don't think the answer is quite so simple sadly.

While the definition Gwar gave you is one way to interpret the use of the word 'instead', it isn't the only way.

You can interpret 'instead' to simply mean that if you don't perform the action you've met the requirement, regardless of whether or not you are actually allowed to perform the action or not.


For example, if I say to someone: The judge ruled that the convict is not allowed to leave his home. Instead of leaving his home to go see a movie however, he can watch movies at home on his TV.

Now, I think everyone you said this to would understand that even though the convict is not allowed to leave his home he is still allowed to watch the movies on his TV.


Unfortunately, in GW rules, they seem to sometimes act as if 'instead' of something means you must be able to perform that original action in order to utilize its replacement and other times they seem to act as if the opposite is true.

'Running' is done instead of shooting, yet if a unit is unable to shoot because they don't have any ranged weapons, for example, everyone tends to play that they are still allowed to 'run'.

And even GW FAQ rulings in some cases have ruled this same way. Eldar Star Engines, for example, are used instead of shooting yet they ruled that these can be used even if the vehicle is not allowed to fire for some reason.


So in short, there is no easy answer whenever you run into these 'instead of' rules. However I think you can take solace in the fact that I would wager about 95% of players you'd ask would naturally side with the interpretation Gwar gave you in this particular case, so I think you're best off just naturally trying to play that way anyway, even though it isn't to your best benefit.

there are alot of armies out there that are gettnig/using psykers figure even if you get only one kill in 3 games for a 100 opint guy your still close to even points let alone if your facing nids where they could easily have 11 on the board, or eldar could have 5-6.

I agree, lix.

In the current tourney metagame around here, odds are I'll face at least on psyker in each game of an RTT.

It might be different in other places, but if you manage to nab even one psyker over three rounds with the CoM, it's gonna be worth it (unless that one psyker happens to be a member of a PBS).

I agree with Yaks assessment of the "instead of" wording.

I do however feel It can be used in combat, based on the precedent set in older FAQs. Star engines are a classic example, If you destroy all of their weapons they can still use them even though they have no way of shooting.

I look at it this way, you use the CoM, It checks to see if you moved, if you did not it checks to see that no shooting was done, if so the power goes off.


As for the OPs second question, Even IF if was a shooting attack (which it is not) they could shoot at what ever they want since the CoM does not target anything.

Also:

The real question though is why are you using the CoM? It's utter garbage.

Were have you been hiding? CoM is the best 20 points DE can field right now. Last tourney I went to I played three games, The fist round I played tyranids and killed a tervigon (and a ton of his guants), the second round I missed out on killing a Libby, the third round I killed a flying DP.

In the current meta-game It is a rare to find an army with less than 2 psykers, and with Tyranids taking at least 5 it become more useful as the number of people jump on the bandwagon.

But with everything having LD10 it seems like, making those 20 points pay for themselves is a very tenuous proposition at best. :(

Against a single Ld 10 psyker, you have a 1/12 chance to gack it anywhere on the board.

If the opponent has two Ld 10 psykers, you've jumped up to 1/6 chance to gack one of them.

Against a lot of the common Tyranid builds, you have just about even money to gack one of their psyker models.

In a tournament setting, I can see taking it if your army build otherwise has the 20 points to spend. At least around here, in the current metagame, it's hard to go to a three game tournament and see fewer than three-four enemy psykers.

If you don't play like an idiot its 7/36 chance to kill an LD 10 character outright.

In a meta-game were the average number of Psykers per game is 2+ its well worth the cost.

Clthomps wrote:If you don't play like an idiot its 7/36 chance to kill an LD 10 character outright.

In a meta-game were the average number of Psykers per game is 2+ its well worth the cost.

Yeah, I know, but I was looking at worst case scenario.

Doesn't seem to me like it's a matter of playing like an idiot, seems more like a matter of either luck(if you don't know whether or not your opponent will have psykers) or planning ahead(if you know your opponent has psykers). I mean, the item requires no strategy to use.

I believe 'Thomps was referring to the fact that an enemy psyker within a certain radius tests at -1 Ld. If the DE player is smart enough to wait until the psyker is close enough, it more than doubles the chances for the CoM to work.

Ahhhh, good point. I was under the impression that the -1 to leadership wasn't restricted by a radius, but rather affected everyone. I rescind my previous statement.

FYI, the crucible killed a daemon prince and the doom of malan'tai this weekend. I'm hooked.