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Pilgrims move so much around the galaxy that it is often the position for them to fight for the emperor and the imperium.

They're often found in large groups, sometimes as large as 100 men.

Pilgrims squad: 100 points
1 organiser 9 pilgrims
Organiser:
WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A2 Ld 8 Sv 5+
Pilgrim:
WS2 BS2 S3 T3 W1 I2 A1 Ld 5 Sv 6
Malitia infantry
WS3 BS2 S3 T3 W1 I2 A2 Ld 6 Sv 5+
Soldier
WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I4 A3 Ld 7 Sv 4+
Wargear:
derringers (pilgrims) Pilgrim staff lasgun (malitia, soldiers, organisers) laspistols (malitia soldiers organisers) Powerswords (soldiers)
Special rules:
Dissaray such squads are so massive it's often difficult to keep track of everyone, as such every time the squad moves, it takes 2D6 pilgrims as casualties, until the squad is of a reasonable size (30)
March of the holy ones: these pilgrims will throw themselves at the enemy. as such, they will opt to run at an enemy if within 12" of him they also have the fleet special rule.
Championism: if the organiser dies, 5 pilgrims must be taken as casualties too.
add up to:
9 more organiser 50 pts each
for every organiser, you may add 9 pilgrims for 5 points.

up to 20 pilgrims may be upgraded to
malitia infantry 2 pts each
Soldiers 15 pts
wargear notes:

Derringers small, practical but basically useless las-pistols the pilgrims arm themselves with. they fire very fast though they often explode.
9" S2 AP- Pistol (3) gets hot!
Pilgrim staff
these are long sticks used to support the pilgrims. they're not much of a weapon.
halves the units initiative, must be used as a weapon.

So essentially you get a laspistol and powersword for 7 points? with a 5+ save?

whoop. not a powersword, I combat blade. my mistake.

Ok where do I begin...

1: 100pts is too much for what is essentially a Guardsman squad with CCWs
2: The squad loses 2D6 models when it moves? So you want the squad to completly deplete itself before it even reaches the enemy?
3: The Champoinism rule sounds completly insane? "Our commander has died, quick, we must all go too"
4: Instead of March of the Holy Ones, simply give them the Rage USR
5: With all the upgrades avaliable for better troops, it'll be too hard keeping track of majority stats and other matters.
6: All pistol weapons are Assault 1: there is no such stat as Pistol (3)
7: The pilgrims are already I2, why would you want that to be halved. You're saying that they are as fast as a TH/SS Termie
8: Upgrade 20 models at 15pts each? Just with that upgrade that's an extra 300pts. 300pts that would be better spent elsewhere.

My suggestions bases on the revelant point...

1: Lower the initial points to 80 maximum
2: Remove this rule completly, or just change to something like "You lose D3 troops whenever you fail a Morale Check"
3: Remove this rule completly
4: Replace this rule with Rage
5: Cut down on the amount of upgrades, and make them cheaper
6: If you want a multiple shot weapon, make it Assault 2, as 3 shots are too much
7: Don't halve the Initiative. You could instead make it that they count as I1 during a Sweeping Advance
8: Lower the points for upgrades


Thanks,

Valk

Lower the points? They're approaching an 100 strong unit.

the_ferrett wrote:Lower the points? They're approaching an 100 strong unit.

Ok well for 100 men with no upgrades, that's 1000 points already. I could get 4 Leman Russ Executioners with Plasma sponsons for less than that, which would do a great deal more hurt than this squad.

Maybe you should make it instead of "50pts leader then 9 more at 5pts", just make it "50pts for 10 extra plain guys"

Valk

new model:
Pilgrim squad 5 pts
1 overseer
add:
up to 9 more overseers 5 pts each
90 pilgrims free.

rules for the Squad:
Rowdy: the group is unruly. sometimes, they end up trampeling their own men. (only relevant if there is no overseers.) D3 wounds on the squad whenever the squad moves in the movement phase and if it fails a morale test, D6D3
For the emperor! The champion can go into a fit of rage, but may end up killing himself. if he chooses to use this rule, he must use it every turn. he must take a leadership test.
D3 rolled:
1 +1 to attacks
2 furious charge
3 Furious charge, Preferred enemy.
if it fails however, he takes D6 wounds.

Overseer:
WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld6 sv6
Wargear: Laspistol, Combat blade
Pilgrim:
WS2 BS1 S1 T1 W1 I1 A1 Ld2 Sv-
Wargear: Derringer, staff
Pilgrim champion
WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld6 Sv4
Wargear: las pistol Power sword, stilleto

May take stilleto knives. (90 pts, bought as a full group)
upgrade an overseer to a pilgrim champion for 30 pts
upgrade 2 pilgrims to carry the orpheus tomb
Derringer - S2 AP- Type: pistol, gets hot!
Staff +1 S
Stilleto +1 to I (or maybe attacks?)

Pilgrim's orpheus tomb: the models carrying this counts as two pilgrims, but only one wound. this squad counts as an objective. if the tomb is dropped, it breaks, it counts as 5 VP, or an objective.

Additionally, the tomb grants leadership of 9.

Why not use existing rules and mods from existing units etc but maybe change their names?

Much easier for us to assess. There is too much to think about here within a single unit type.

whats the point of having a massive unit with no special rules!!!! this is proposed rules.

The new Pilgrims should be at least T2 and S2. T1 and S1 are 1/3 of a human's strength, which means that these models have the strength and durability of a 5 year old.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I made a unit a bit like this a few weeks ago, you can take ideas from that if you want to.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/280810.page

Captain Solon wrote:whats the point of having a massive unit with no special rules!!!! this is proposed rules.

Have a massive unit by all means, thats the point of this unit, I get it, but don't bog play down with having masses of extra rules and sub types that could result in play being halted or paused whilst they are sorted out.

For instance yeah i like the idea of pilgrims, i would scrap any extra subtypes, use IG weapon sub types (eg counts as las pistols, lasguns etc) make them piss poor weak 2s all round maybe (I dunno this is just an example) and give them without number or use some of the IG rules for conscripts/Chenkov.

Designing rules because you can doesn't mean that you should.

heres the final idea:

Pilgrim squad
10 guardsmen
Guardsmen stats
100 pilgrims
WS2 BS2 S2 T2 W1 I2 A1 Ld 3 sv-
mass-produced laspistols:
Produced much faster then even the cheapest laspistols, these are made for real army on the go groups, such as pilgrims, as such, they're very weak and often volatile
Ra 9" S2 AP-Type pistol (gets hot!)?
And all rules replaced with rowdy:
Everytime the squad chooses to run (in shooting phase) they take D3 wounds. (maybe also if they decide to move through terrain?)
the entire squad is very light-weighted, so can be very fast. so maybe they should get the Fleet special rule?

.........

Sorry but the above is complete garbage. Nobody in their right mind would field that.

A Str2 weapon that gets hot on a bs2 model that takes wounds every time they run???

Nuff said.

gets hot is in brackets. that means that it's a 'should I?'

Remove Gets Hot and why have you put "guardsman stats" then included a different stat line?

because there are ten guardsmen to lead the squad, then the actual pilgrim infantry, who have a different statline.

I've been meaning to model some pilgrim/fanatics on a singe large base for "counts as" ogryns.

I'd think about fielding them as a swarm bases instead of as single models.

Personally I'd set them up like this:

Pilgrims/Fanatics/Cultists

WS2 BS2 S3 T3 W3 I2 A4 Ld 5 Sv 6 20pts a base
Unit size 3+ bases

Equipment: Improvised close combat weapons (attacks included in stat line), Various poorly aimed projectiles
Raged Attack S 2 Range 12 Assault 4


Special Rules: Swarm, Impetus of Faith, Faith of the Multitude, Guiding hand of the Emperor (Guiding hand of Chaos if used as Chaos Cultists)

Impetus of the Faith- Fanatics count as Slow and purposeful as long as there is no enemy unit within their line of sight. As long as there is an enemy unit in sight they loose Slow and Purposeful and gain Rage and Fleet.

Faith of the Multitude- Units consisting of 5 or more bases are stubborn, units consisting of 10 or more bases are fearless. In addition, the faith of the fanatics is inspiring to all those nearby, any friendly unit within 18" of a Fanatic unit, including the Fanatic unit, that has 20 or more bases may re-roll failed moral tests.

Guiding hand of the Emperor- Make a leadership test for every Fanatic unit in your army. If they pass both their shoot attacks and their close combat attacks gain the Rending special rule until your next shooting phase.

I think assault four is a little OP, even for S2.

I like the changes. maybe it should also take vulnerable to blasts/templates.

You might be right about the ranged attack. What stats would you give it?

The Swarm USR gives Vulnerable to Blasts/Templates and Stealth.

oki.

how about:

1. S3 AP- Ra9" Pistol
2. S2 AP- RA9" Assault 2
3. S2 AP- RA12" Pistol
No higher then assault 2.

Captain Solon wrote:oki.

how about:

1. S3 AP- Ra9" Pistol
2. S2 AP- RA9" Assault 2
3. S2 AP- RA12" Pistol
No higher then assault 2.

100 models + 10 Guardsmen = 1 unit?? You're going to roll 110 dice for shooting, 220 dice if they charge into assault?
Good luck.

Well, yeah, but it's 90 pilgrims.

Why does everyone leave out details.

Wouldn't be a problem for me, anything over 50 dice I use a dice roller on my iPhone.

Captain Solon wrote:
Pilgrim squad
10 guardsmen
Guardsmen stats
100 pilgrims

Captain Solon wrote:Well, yeah, but it's 90 pilgrims.

Why does everyone leave out details.

Wouldn't be a problem for me, anything over 50 dice I use a dice roller on my iPhone.

I don't trust those. Easy to hack/create your own unbalanced version.

In regards to the unit...nobody is ever going to use a 100 strong unit of pilgrims. Make a squad of 10, lead by a Rabble-Rouser. Make every X number of squads count as a single Troops/whatever choice. Price it fair, and keep the rules simple.

how about this then:

I liek rabble rouser, he leads 10 different squads.
(10 squads of 10, counting as 1 T selection?)

Pilgrims stay the same.
Rabble rousers could be sergeants of these 10-man squads.
Rabble rouser:
WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld7 Sv 5+
Fanataic
WS2 BS2 S2 T2 W1 I2 A1 Ld7 Sv 5+.

rules:
Undoubtable faith: as long as the squad has it's rabble rouser, it may re-roll any failed morale tests

Wargear:
improvised gear mass-produed laspistols
Mass-produced laspistol:
Ra9" S2 AP- type: pistol

Captain Solon wrote:how about this then:

I liek rabble rouser, he leads 10 different squads.
(10 squads of 10, counting as 1 T selection?)

Pilgrims stay the same.
Rabble rousers could be sergeants of these 10-man squads.
Rabble rouser:
WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld7 Sv 5+
Fanataic
WS2 BS2 S2 T2 W1 I2 A1 Ld7 Sv 5+.

rules:
Undoubtable faith: as long as the squad has it's rabble rouser, it may re-roll any failed morale tests

Wargear:
improvised gear mass-produed laspistols
Mass-produced laspistol:
Ra9" S2 AP- type: pistol

This still doesn't change the fact that you have created Conscripts I'd be even less likely to field. They could be 1 point apiece and I'd never willingly field them.
S2 9" Weapons? They'd only work because of the fact the opponent is too busy ignoring this squad to bother wiping it from the map.
S3/T3 is average human beings. Are these children?
Laspistols are already massproduced and are already terrible as a result. What you've done is given them joybuzzers instead.
At least conscripts can usually FRFSRF before they die.

Yeah. Hate to be the bearer of common sense here, but this idea as it stands is utter fail. It would be best if you either A: Junked it completly or B: Actually read the codex and propose something that isnt a horribly worse option then the worst troop choice in it.

**EDIT**
I recommend reading FW IA SoV books (IA 5-7 I believe) they have stats for militia, Conscripts, and zombies which you can base ideas off of.

daedalus wrote:

Captain Solon wrote:how about this then:

I liek rabble rouser, he leads 10 different squads.
(10 squads of 10, counting as 1 T selection?)

Pilgrims stay the same.
Rabble rousers could be sergeants of these 10-man squads.
Rabble rouser:
WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld7 Sv 5+
Fanataic
WS2 BS2 S2 T2 W1 I2 A1 Ld7 Sv 5+.

rules:
Undoubtable faith: as long as the squad has it's rabble rouser, it may re-roll any failed morale tests

Wargear:
improvised gear mass-produed laspistols
Mass-produced laspistol:
Ra9" S2 AP- type: pistol

This still doesn't change the fact that you have created Conscripts I'd be even less likely to field. They could be 1 point apiece and I'd never willingly field them.
S2 9" Weapons? They'd only work because of the fact the opponent is too busy ignoring this squad to bother wiping it from the map.
S3/T3 is average human beings. Are these children?
Laspistols are already massproduced and are already terrible as a result. What you've done is given them joybuzzers instead.
At least conscripts can usually FRFSRF before they die.

Ok lets simulate a battle between 10 Guardsmen and 10 Pilgrims
Pilgrim: WS2 BS2 S2 T2 W1 I2 A1 Ld 3 sv-
Guardsman: WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld 7 Sv5+

Averages are used in this simulation, with fractions rounded up.

Ok Turn One Shooting
Pilgrims: 10 Shots, 3 hit, 1 wound, possibly 1 Guardsman dead.
Guardsmen: 9 Shots, 5 Hit, 4 wound, 4 Pilgrims dead

Turn One Assault
Now I'm going to be generous and say Pilgrims get the charge
Guardsman: 9 Attacks, 6 Hit, 4 wound, 4 Pilgrims dead
Pilgrims: 4 Attacks, 2 Hit, 1 wound, possibly 1 Guardsman dead.

Pilgrims almost always fail Ld Test and so flee. Very likely to be destroyed via sweeping advance.

10 Pilgrims wiped out in one turn, at the expense of 1 Guardsman

Now can you see why the rules need work??

Valk

people get mad when they're a 10 man as much as when they're a 100 man.

what about they're 4 25-man squads, they'll hold their own.

Captain Solon wrote:people get mad when they're a 10 man as much as when they're a 100 man.

what about they're 4 25-man squads, they'll hold their own.

Ok lets simulate 25 Pilgrims vs 25 Guardsmen

Pilgrim: WS2 BS2 S2 T2 W1 I2 A1 Ld3 Sv-
Guard: WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld7 Sv5+

Again, averages are used and fractions are rounded up.

Turn 1 Shooting
Pilgrims: 25 Shots, 9 hit 3 wound, 2 Guardsmen dead
Guardsmen: 46 Shots, 23 hit, 16 wound, 16 Pilgrims dead.

Turn 1 Assault
Again, I'm giving Pilgrims the charge
Guardsmen: 23 attacks, 16 hit, 16 wound, 16 Pilgrims dead.
All Pilgrims dead

LoL