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HQ:
Bloodthirster -- Might, BotBG -- 275
Herald of Tzeentch -- Chariot, Master, Bolt, Legion -- 110
Herald of Tzeentch -- Chariot, Master, Bolt, Legion -- 110

Elites:
6x Fiends -- 1x Might -- 190
6x Fiends -- 1x Might -- 190

Troops:
7x Plaguebearers -- Icon -- 130
8x Plaguebearers -- Icon -- 145
8x Plaguebearers -- Icon -- 145

Heavy:
Daemon Prince -- Flight, Iron Hide, Nurgle, Cloud, Noxious, Aura -- 235
Daemon Prince -- Flight, Iron Hide, Nurgle, Cloud, Noxious, Aura -- 235
Daemon Prince -- Flight, Iron Hide, Nurgle, Cloud, Noxious, Aura -- 235

Plaguebearers care about objectives; everything else cares about very high mobility killing. The Heralds enjoy long walks on the beach, gazing infantry, and popping transports. The Fiends and MCs enjoy slaughtering things. The auras are for tossing numbers at the enemy; only a couple models dying makes the points back.

Thanks for looking. Comments and criticisms encouraged!

The idea is good. But details need to be tuned.

Wings plus ironhides are almost the basic cost of a DP. You cannot assault on turn 1. Then you invest twice the price for a extra 6 inches movement, to got a higher chance of assaulting on turn 2? Unnecessary.

If you want mobility, take more cavalrys, like fiends or hounds.

Plaguebearers should be spread to more squads.

HoT should have chariots. They need more wounds.

I take a very different approach to tokugawa concerning your Daemon Prince loadouts.

Daemon Prince upgrades are expensive, but they are worth it. Iron hide is a must on nurgle princes as that only leaves them a 5++. Noxious and Aura are definitely good, cloud is personal choice but doesnt hurt.

IMO Wings are also a must. I see it this way. To deepstrike within 12 inches, so you can assault the next turn is suicide. Reasons being within 12" marines get rapid fire, even with T6 not fun, then come in things like melta guns, and plasma that really muck up a daemon prince. Then consider the rest of the army on the board, a daemon prince is a scary, and they will be focused. Then there is always the simple option of moving. You are within 12" but all they need to do is jump back just enough for you to be out of range, unless you are really really really close. Also trying to deepstrike within 12" is scary as mishaps really suck. And then what happens if you manage to pull all of this off, you kill a squad and then your Daemon prince is left to walk around the board, hoping to catch something, but a skilled player probably wont let that happen.

With wings, you can deepstrike you daemon prince behind something, gain cover saves. then fly out, take full advantage of 18" charges, kill anything in your path. Then once your target is dead, you can actually catch something else on the board. Daemon Princes are good at killing tanks, with 18" assaults they can catch tanks.

To pop transport vehicles at own ASSAULT phase - that is not deamon players need. They always have plenty of that power.

What they need is - To pop transport vehicles at SHOOTING phase.

At least a tzzentch DP has something to finish this task...and it have the best and cost-effective defence against meltaguns: 4+ isv.

Well good luck with anything armor 13 or 14 then. I have tried using bolt and its not effective. Princes in CC with 2D6 on back armor, those are odds i like.

Daemons are not a shooty army by any means, something that just has to be accepted.

Sorry, the chariot cost was included, but not listed.

I was considering shuffling points and fitting a 5 horror bolt / changeling unit in.

I wasn't really rethinking the core setup of the DPs. The thing I might drop for point shuffling would be Aura.

Edit: Drop PB squads to 6, drop an Icon, add 5 horrors w/ bolt, changeling. Just more cheap shooting. Plus they're scoring.

Not convinced you need 4 icons, even at 2k... especially given that they're being carried mostly by plaguebearers.

Switching out a DP for more fiends might be good. Also, even with 2D6 for armor penetration you might be happier with might on the DPs... if they're trying to hit something fast, they're unlikely to hit more than once, and so you want that one hit to count.

I've never been impressed with the idea of Aura, myself, though admittedly I've never tried it.

I played the list down at 1850 today. I used 4 squads of 5 Plaguebearers and two icons. Dropped Aura and Legion as well.

Tabled my codex SM opponent. I even had null zone ruining my stuff. It was a good game and he was apparently on a winning streak with his army.

Deepstriking went well and the goal was accomplished: too many very tough targets to shoot at once. Turn one saw a Fiend squad get focused down, but then everything else was free to reach out next turn and get where they needed to be. It was pretty much a massacre from that point on.

I'll probably get another game in tomorrow. More to come!

The Bloodthirster should be dropped to give you another unit of fiends. I would consider adding in some fleshounds of khorne to give you more attacks on the charge. I really thing that if you were going to go the route of demon prince it would be to give them the mark of tzeentch. I will take a 4+ inv over a 3+ armor any day.

matthc wrote:The Bloodthirster should be dropped to give you another unit of fiends. I would consider adding in some fleshounds of khorne to give you more attacks on the charge. I really thing that if you were going to go the route of demon prince it would be to give them the mark of tzeentch. I will take a 4+ inv over a 3+ armor any day.

A nurgle daemon prince and a tzeentch daemon prince serve difference roles entirely. Nurlge daemon princes have offensive and defensive grenades, aura of decay for anti-tank, and noxious touch for a nice 2+ to wound. Tzeentch does give a 4+ however you are still only toughness 5 which means more wounds and the only upgrades available are ranged weapons.

I agree, however against most things you wound on a 2+ unless you are facing MC. In which case you higher toughness is usually not that big of a deal. I really don't think you need nurgle princes though as I feel that your princes should be popping transports whether that be in CC or Shooting (in which case the Tzeentch prince fills that role). You can leave infantry cleanup to the mass charges of hounds and fiends.

I'd stick nurgle DP if your plan is to wade into enemy fire then beat them down. Seems perfect for the job.

Daemon Princes are strength 5 against most things you are wounding on a 3+..

Fiends should be killing tanks... Fiends vs Armor have 6 strength 5 rending attacks. Statistically, every fiend should roll at least one 6. and they auto penetrate armor 10 and 11 on rending rolls. And can glance armor 10 on a 5.

Daemon Princes are much better anti-infantry because they have a higher weapon skill, higher toughness, better abilities, and they disallow armor saves. Plus when equipped like above they can deal with infantry and MC's with equal effectiveness.

See alot of ideas here, and most are sub par to be honest.


Hounds? you mean fast moving marines minus the armour save and ability to negate armour? no thanks.
Hounds are over costed and have little effect.


Also, wings are yet another thing that eats away at points, but very quickly.
I see no need to take them to be honest.

I'd go with: Daemon Prince - Iron Hide, Tzeentch, breath and bolt.
Lasts just as long and gives you 2 decent weapons, one for anti-tank (gives you a chance to pop transports on the turn you come in) and a nice flame template weapon that ignores saves, something that will help thin out armoured units (marines, termies and the likes)


Troops i have little problem with, except maybe drop an icon and spend the points on more plagues.
You will need a single unit in each drop section to use as a summoning platform.


Thirster: Remove the blessing, might is fine on its own.
Other than that, he is a solid unit in his own right.

With saved points grab 2 units of 3 screamers, or a single unit of 6 in KP missions.
They will give you nice anti-tank (jetbike melta-bombs anyone?)


Also, think about some crushers.
Your mainstay of the army has little armour killing ability compared to most armies.
The crushers should have enough staying power and strength to push through most units.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:
Also, wings are yet another thing that eats away at points, but very quickly.
I see no need to take them to be honest.

I'd go with: Daemon Prince - Iron Hide, Tzeentch, breath and bolt.
Lasts just as long and gives you 2 decent weapons, one for anti-tank (gives you a chance to pop transports on the turn you come in) and a nice flame template weapon that ignores saves, something that will help thin out armoured units (marines, termies and the likes)

Thirster: Remove the blessing, might is fine on its own.
Other than that, he is a solid unit in his own right.

Also, think about some crushers.
Your mainstay of the army has little armour killing ability compared to most armies.
The crushers should have enough staying power and strength to push through most units.

This is going to sound like an insult, it really is not an insult, i just cant see where you are comming from. But, do you play Chaos Daemons?

These suggestions seem rather strange to me. You first say that wings cost too many points, but then decide to give the daemon prince iron hide and mark of tzeentch. Which really isnt needed either. Why would breath and bolt be a good idea on a daemon prince? The only way you will use breath is if you plan to deepstrike right next to enemy units and then use it. Otherwise with only 6" movements any player would simply move out of the way. If you want templates get Flamers of Tzeentch. At BS5 a template is a waste. Also, bolt really isnt that great. It looks like a melta, but its not and its over costed for what you get even at BS 5. The Bolt's on his heralds covers his ranged-anti tank needs.

Why remove blessing on the bloodthirster? its a 5 point upgrade that gives a 2+ invulnerable vs psychic wounds. And with all the new psykers comming out why wouldnt you take it?

Crushers look like an awesome idea but are slow. I see people running curshers with fateweaver due to the re-roll saves, this works because it keeps them alive. The only way this would work again, is with very risky deepstrikes. Not to mention his list really doesnt have a place for bloodcrushers.

Wittwer - no offence taken.
I do play daemons aswell

Ill agree on the 1st one, and admit i messed that up.
I edited the OP list and forgot to take hide out of it.

Once you drop it in there isnt going to allways be a target you want, when you play a tournament with a fixed list you need to cover all bases.
Its all about overkill.
If your near a transport you want to be able to pop it then go for the models that come out.

Granted, bolt isnt the best available to them, but against things like ironclads, i rather shoot them than run into combat against them.
May sound bad, but AV13 walkers are a pain in the arse to kill in combat, since theres a good chance a MC wont kill it in the 1st turn, it will attack back (and at S10 its going to wound a few times)

Flamers are nice, but again, you drop them, fire and then they tend to die to small arms in no time.
If you scatter (assuming your not using an icon when needed) then you risk losing that unit for no reason.
With a prince atleast he can hold up to shooting.


Also, another note with breath is terminators.
I rather hit them with a template that ignores thier saves than charge in and get slapped about by hammers and do nothing due to T shields.

With blessing, ill go with you.
Have just came back to things after a little break and noticed the BA stir being caused, i guess anti-psychic has its place again.


The reason i suggested crushers was for a hammer unit.
Obviously you dont randomly drop them in (icons are needed in this case)
I just find that a unit thats capable of removing armour and causing alot of damage each turn helps to no end.

Even if they spend thier time drawing fire, they have kept the spotlight off of the plagues holding an objective.
Sure they are slow, but they make up for that in combat.
Dont really get units that are fast, hard hitting and survive anymore.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:
Dont really get units that are fast, hard hitting and survive anymore.

Nurgle Daemon Princes with Wings, Iron Hide, and Noxious Touch

must sayi agree with a few people here, i play deamons have a small 1250 army only one prince in it and always take it as tzeentch w/ breath sometimes bolt or gaze depending on what im up against, the 4++ save very useful imo better than an extra wound anyday and if you give him wings deepstrike in near cover then fly out and incinerate a unit.
works very nicely on marines as there 3+ save is nulled send in a unit of bearersin support.
would also rate one 10man squad of horrors for longish range support w/ changeling last time i used him my friends marines failed 6of the leadership tests and shot each other and his command squad a lot was quality. apartfrom that cant fault nethin you tryin hopeit al comes together for you

@ Jack

I don't know what you have against hounds. 60 Strength 5 initiative 5 attacks on the charge with an 18+d6 threat range for 300 points isn't really that bad. While you don't have a marine's save you do have his toughness. They also are a very good anti-infantry backup for your fiends so that they don't get overwhelmed. Sure their saves isn't a 3+ but when they are behind cover it doesn't really matter and you can afford to sit them behind cover because they can cover distance extremely fast unlike crushers. I would almost go so far as to say that I would take hounds over crushers any day. Sure strength 6 power weapons attacks are great, but when you are not going to be the one charging and when sheer weight of attacks are more important due to the prevalence of invulnerable saves on CC dedicate units I would rather have attacks that don't care what kind of save you have and can actually get into close combat with you.