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hey everybody, Girthman here

So I've been having some uncertainties on my dwarves
I already have a good amount of dwarves...although embarassing enough I have had my first game yet with them ops:

but Ive been having some doubts in my mind about dwarfs although Im absolutely in love with every aspect of dwarves, Im not sure if they'll be able to stand up to my best friend that is way more tactically inclined than I am, who is starting a DARK ELF force.

so do dwarves actually stand a chance against dark elves? what should I do!?
here is a list of what I have
Heroes:
Thane 65 pts
Runesmith 70 pts

Core:
40 dwarf warriors
10 Thunderers 140 pts
10 Quarellers
Special:
1 cannon 90 pts
8 Miners 88 pts (could proxy these for more hammerers)
60 dwarf slayers 660 pts (my friend gave me these)
2 grudgethrowers
5 hammerers
Rare:
Organ gun 120 pts

A couple of misc. dwarf models I have are:
Goblin Hewer w/ malakai makinson and crew
1 Dwarf Lord w/ hand gun
1 Dwarf Lord
2 LongBeard command models
1 Daemon slayer
1 Games Day special edition daemon slayer ( going to use this as a unit filler for warriors)
1 Garagrim Ironfist


pretty much right now he has the battleforce along with an extra box of warriors which he'll most likely turn into crossbowmen
he doesnt really have any heroes other than an assassin.

Unfortunately, I am tired right now so I can't think of a list with your models. However, my advice is if he is going with more crossbowmen, he is thinking he can outshoot you. For some reason this reminds me of the saying "don't bring a knife to a gun fight". The same goes for trying to outshoot a dwarf army. If he is going heavy on range I would too. He is going to have a minus 2 or 3 every round of shooting till he gets into close range (-1 multiple shots, -1 long range, and -1 if he moves closer). Thunderers have the same range (24") but get that nifty +1 to hit so it will negate the long range. So even with 2x the shots he is not going to be hitting you more than you are hitting him. (sorry no mathhammer this late) Now think about his str 3 to your toughness 4 and your str 4 to his toughness 3, not to mention your armor save (probably 5+ w/ shield) to his no save. Granted his line costs 100 pts for 10 and yours will cost 150 for 10x. Either way I think dwarfs win that shoot out. I like stubborn hammerers to go toe to toe with what he has, but beware of the ASF black guard. Go with hand weapon and shield if you do because they are still only str 4. I would consider an oathstone also somewhere. I always seem to be getting flank charged when I don't want to. Maybe after some sleep, I will have better advice.

lol thankyou very much Boogeyman, sleepy advise is better than no advise at all. I really appreciate it, I hope to hear what other great advise you'll have with a clear mind haha

Well actually Dark elves can out shoot dwarfs because dark elves have the ability to move and shoot, where dwarfs have to stand still to shoot. Might not sound like much, but dark elves have a huge movement advantage, and can deny shots by overloading one side and shooting all the ranged units on it to death. Dwarf Melee units really aren't a good idea, because there is no real way to force the dark elf player into a combat that he doesn't want. Also dark elves if they really want can overload even dwarf magic defense, and their number one spell prevents shooting.

All in all it is a very unfavorable match for dwarfs. It means that you probably will have to castle as best as you can (preferably on and around a hill or the corner) Elves are pretty weak defending against shooting, but dark elves have all sorts of tricks to make it hard to get full effectiveness out of your units.

I guess what I would go with is the crossbow armed dwarfs over the gunpowder, as the extra -1 against elf armor hardly matters compared to the extra range.

How many points are you playing?

notabot makes some valid points. I would have to concede to his greater tactical experience, but there are some choices dwarfs can make to help a little.

Your deployment needs to be almost flawless, but I still think with the negative modifiers and low str shots, that a dwarf gunline (with thunderers and quarrellers extra 6" will be helpful) can still out perform the rxb of the DE. Granted he is not going to just sit there and let you shoot him.

So how can dwarfs compete in movement? MR of challenge can force him to make an unwanted and unfavorable charge. The strollaz rune on a BSB will allow you to make a march move before the game starts. (read some of Red_Zeke's battle reports to see effectiveness) The gyrocopter is an excellent march blocker or charge redirector, it is also the only unit that moves more than 6". Dwarfs can't be march blocked. The anvil of doom has powers that can either give one or d3 of your units a free move in the shooting phase or you can affect one or d3 of his units either flyers from flying or halfing the movement of ground troops, while also causing damage. Oathstones provide added magic resistance and still eliminates the bonuses of flank and rear charges. You also have the advantage of overall better war machines. I say overall because it is hard to have the best when facing reaper bolt throwers. You definitely outclass his DE in toughness and armor. Maybe a cc list with oathstones, granted he can still just dance around you whiddling you down. Even with this, I feel you can be out manuevered and imho movement is the most important part of whfb

The trick to beating dark elf shooting is to protect all important units with as many of your shooting units as possible. It is key to make it so if he wants to shoot at one of your units, he is in range of multiple of your shooting units. Interlocking fields of fire are key when it comes to facing an army that has mobile firepower. The best way to accomplish this is with units of quarrelers, because the 6" range advantage over RxB means you can potentially have more units firing, or be able to hit him when he can't hit back. The organ gun is also very good choice, able to blow away the fast cav and even knights that DE bring. Also the gyrocopters steam gun is useful for killing darks riders and other pesky units like shades. Keep in mind it is unlikely to last against counter fire.

Sounds like a plan haha all I need is a gyro copter.

The organ gun is gold against DE that take lots of dark riders. It's pretty survivable and has a decent chance of taking off a unit of dark riders every time they come in range. It can even knock wounds off a hydra in a pinch, though this isn't ideal. If you place it between infantry blocks, it will be difficult to charge, and won't create a weak flank. A hill is a mixed blessing, as everything in range would be able to shoot you, so be a little wary.

I like the gyro as well because it can run down units that are fleeing your slow little fellas, works well in combination with the MR of Challenge, and the steam gun can actually deal some damage. Just be careful when exposing it, because massed repeater crossbows *will* take their toll.

If he has a super tooled up unit of black guard (ASF banner, multiple characters and assassins) don't bother fighting it. A dwarf lord on shieldbearers with the super defensive rune setup can survive, but his hammerers get slashed out from all around him in just a few turns (again, assuming multiple DE characters). If you have to, you can send him in solo, so long as your BSB is close enough to support. He should lose by 2 or 3 each turn, but should also chop up a few characters and hold on a 7 or 8 re-rollable.

For further advice, let us know what points level you expect, and whether he's using models from the battalion or the spearhead...

RZ

If your friend ends up leaning towards the black guard deathstar, introduce him to the goblin hewer.

If ever there was a perfect target for that weapon it's a deeply ranked unit of expensive, toughness three elves.


Try deploying towards one flank or the other and use your small unit of miners to enter the board along that board edge. That'll give him something extra to worry about.

boogeyman wrote:How many points are you playing?

notabot makes some valid points. I would have to concede to his greater tactical experience, but there are some choices dwarfs can make to help a little.

Your deployment needs to be almost flawless, but I still think with the negative modifiers and low str shots, that a dwarf gunline (with thunderers and quarrellers extra 6" will be helpful) can still out perform the rxb of the DE. Granted he is not going to just sit there and let you shoot him.

So how can dwarfs compete in movement? MR of challenge can force him to make an unwanted and unfavorable charge. The strollaz rune on a BSB will allow you to make a march move before the game starts. (read some of Red_Zeke's battle reports to see effectiveness) The gyrocopter is an excellent march blocker or charge redirector, it is also the only unit that moves more than 6". Dwarfs can't be march blocked. The anvil of doom has powers that can either give one or d3 of your units a free move in the shooting phase or you can affect one or d3 of his units either flyers from flying or halfing the movement of ground troops, while also causing damage. Oathstones provide added magic resistance and still eliminates the bonuses of flank and rear charges. You also have the advantage of overall better war machines. I say overall because it is hard to have the best when facing reaper bolt throwers. You definitely outclass his DE in toughness and armor. Maybe a cc list with oathstones, granted he can still just dance around you whiddling you down. Even with this, I feel you can be out manuevered and imho movement is the most important part of whfb

While Dwarfs don't suffer from the "March Blocking Rule" they can be effectively March Blocked.

Place a unit of light cavalry exactly 4 inches away. The Dwarfs now have a choice, walk forward to 1 inch away, or charge, If your Fast Cav flee from the charge, they are automatically successful, and if they rally, they can then park themselves 4 inches away from the dwarfs again.

MARCH BLOCK SUCCESSFUL!

Or just don't care because Dwarfs marching is not particularly scary? What is scary is that Dwarfs can make you quickly realize that you should not stay at range with them, but if you try to go toe-to-toe with them you find they are tough as nails.

Ragnar4 wrote:

While Dwarfs don't suffer from the "March Blocking Rule" they can be effectively March Blocked.

Place a unit of light cavalry exactly 4 inches away. The Dwarfs now have a choice, walk forward to 1 inch away, or charge, If your Fast Cav flee from the charge, they are automatically successful, and if they rally, they can then park themselves 4 inches away from the dwarfs again.

MARCH BLOCK SUCCESSFUL!

This certainly does work, and if I suspect this to be the situation, the rare choices come into play. Organ gun is pretty good at blasting dark riders, and after one unit, it's made most of its points back. I'll also declare a dual charge with gyro and blocks, or set one up to try to prevent this from happening. Failing that, a solo gyro charge can usually lock down a unit of dark riders long enough to do deal with (or be dealt with by!) the rest of the army.

And of course, after all this, there's usually the BlackGuardstar that I just can't touch in combat...

RZ

Red_Zeke wrote:

Ragnar4 wrote:

While Dwarfs don't suffer from the "March Blocking Rule" they can be effectively March Blocked.

Place a unit of light cavalry exactly 4 inches away. The Dwarfs now have a choice, walk forward to 1 inch away, or charge, If your Fast Cav flee from the charge, they are automatically successful, and if they rally, they can then park themselves 4 inches away from the dwarfs again.

MARCH BLOCK SUCCESSFUL!

This certainly does work, and if I suspect this to be the situation, the rare choices come into play. Organ gun is pretty good at blasting dark riders, and after one unit, it's made most of its points back. I'll also declare a dual charge with gyro and blocks, or set one up to try to prevent this from happening. Failing that, a solo gyro charge can usually lock down a unit of dark riders long enough to do deal with (or be dealt with by!) the rest of the army.

And of course, after all this, there's usually the BlackGuardstar that I just can't touch in combat...

RZ

Did you just go all Dwight on me? (The office) That's funny.

Not really intentionally. Just trying to give the OP some ideas to counter this kind of "march blocking".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But while I'm on the subject, I should mention that if this battle is taking place on a beet farm, it's auto-win. Mose sets up the bait and flee, and I spring from the shadows.

Just sayin'.