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In my time away from Dakka, I've been reading up on the Nids and seeing if Nidzilla is still playable and competitive.

I've got some results and theory that I would like to share with you.

First of all, IMO, the overall composition of Nidzilla has changed drastically. We lost Elite Fexes, but gained Carnifi Broods, Tyrannofex, Trygon, Mawloc and Tervigon, however IMO this is not the next evolution of Nidzilla.

Enter: The Tyranid Warrior. Cheap, Powerful and 3 Wounds.

I believe the new Nidzilla list is not about putting down a few MCs, but about all the units having more than one wound that support the larger MCs.

These are the models that I looked at for the new list:

HQ

Now you can either go with a Tyrant + Guard and Prime or Two Primes. It depends on how many warriors you intend to use.

Hive Tyrant
This guy is great, but expensive. I think there are two ways you could equip it - All-rounder or Dakka Tyrant. I prefer Dakka Tyrants, but thats the way I play. So basically Bonesword and Lash Whip with Devourer or Two Devourers. The best thing about it is Old Adversary IMO. Problem here is that you need to include the...

Tyrant Guard
These guys are mandatory for a walking Tyrant. They are basically extra wounds for your Tyrant and can beat face too. Lash Whips are good, but I prefer keeping them stock.

Tyranid Prime
OMG, this guy can beat face and is uber cheap. He also buffs your Warriors. Cheap, Powerful, Buffs Warriors??? Whats not to like???

Tervigon
If only it was better as a HQ than it was as a Troops choice. I'm on the fence with it in Nidzilla. I recognise it's usefulness, but we have better HQ choices here.

The Parasite of Mortrex - AKA Mortrex.
You might go with a Ripper based list and if you do, this guy is pretty much mandatory. Situational but good.

Elites

This is the most difficult section for Nidzilla, as most of the support units come from this section.

Hive Guard
You take them. Just take them and be happy. The high toughness and awesome gun are too good for the points you pay. I'd take at least one brood of two, I prefer two broods of two as they are that good.

Zoanthrope
Another awesome unit. These guys help with Anti-Tank and Anti MEQ. I'd take at least one brood of two.

Venomthrope
Now here is the problem. These guys are so useful that I often question if I should take a unit of Venomthropes over a second unit of Hive Guard. The Cover Save is too good to ignore here as they will protect your larger creatures from Heavy and Super Heavy Fire Power.

Troops

This is where my main theories come into effect.

Tyranid Warriors
They are the mainstay here. Cheap, Powerful, Lots of options. The extra wound they gained from last codex and the fact they are Troops choices and Synapse Creatures is just awesome. Make them shooty with Deathspitters and Scything Talons (as CC back-up) or make them hitty with Two Boneswords and Scything Talons (or Deathspitters for added shootiness). With a Prime guiding them these guys can really lay the smack down or put the hurt on from mid-range. I like the Shooty option myself as the withering hail of fire is really effective.

Rippers
Rippers I here you say??? As far as I am aware of they now count as scoring units, but thats not why we want them in the army. Add on Toxin Sacs and a mid - large size unit can now take down any non vehicle unit. I used 2 full size unit against an Eldar army and in one game they took out an Avatar of Khaine and two Wraithlord. At 14 points they are pricey, but worth it. They can Tarpit and kill stuff.

Fast Attack

I tried a little of everything here, but to be honest, I didn't like anything I used. Everything here is a bit fragile or operate too far away from the support units. The only thing I can recommend here are the Shrikes, but even then, only if you go with a ton of warriors theme.

Heavy Support

Here We Go!!!

Carnifex
Hmmm, Carnis - Small Hands . I think the Dakkafex is definately the way to go here. 2 Twin Devourers and nothing else. 12 shots per turn, Twin Linked is nothing to snort at. I want one brood of two or two broods of one so they can shoot at different units.

Trygon
I used both variants and they served two purposes. Not only do they lay the smack down but they also get shot at a lot, which takes it away from the other units. Prime is a massive upgrade and IMO if you have the points, take one.

Tyrannofex - AKA Raiderfex.
I'm have mixed opinions on this. Its expensive, a huge target, but man can it destroy tanks at range. Always take the Rupture Cannon as it can knock out the Nids biggest weakness - AV14. It needs the support of Venomthropes to protect it from Heavy Weapons, but even then, its not as survivable as its AV14 counterparts.

I'll have some lists up when i've tested them some more.

I agree on the mostpart. for the rippers though, they have the swarm rule and therefore do not count as scoring.

for fast attack, i have used gargoyles with a good amount of success. but i am not sure that would fit into your nidzilla list

Trygon would have to be my most favorite new unit, and the model just looks epic.

radiohazard wrote:
Rippers
Rippers I here you say??? As far as I am aware of they now count as scoring units, but thats not why we want them in the army. Add on Toxin Sacs and a mid - large size unit can now take down any non vehicle unit. I used 2 full size unit against an Eldar army and in one game they took out an Avatar of Khaine and two Wraithlord. At 14 points they are pricey, but worth it. They can Tarpit and kill stuff.[/color]

Unfortunately, swarm units can't score in 5th.

My local group plays 1850 tourneys so here's my experience in that environment.

Prime is cool, but I rarely find the points taking the Tyrant as a first choice. I usually run tyrant with wings, regen, 2xtl devourers, old adversary, parox, leech. I tried him with guards and melee build, but most other armies have better counters. Without a transport or fleet, they fall behind your fast units and often still get taken down easily without any invulns. My build is fast, great for support, 12 tl str6 shots, and can still pop vehicles in cc. I run it with 3 units of gargoyles with TS/AG. At 8 pts each and witht he support of flyrant with OA, they will hit MEQ on 4+ auto wound on 6's, reroll misses, wound on 4+ and reroll wounds on the charge.

I tried tyrannofex in several games, but for 260 pts 2 str10 shots with a bs3 didn't cut it. Yes, it actually has 3 weapons it can fire every turn, but if you move up to 18" for spines or close for flamer template, you won't want to fire a str10 weapon with ap4 at infantry you're templating. If you use it with the acid spray build, you're going anti-infantry and our entire troop/FA section is basically anti-infantry already. I currently use 1 trygon and 2 mawlocs in a footslogging army. Starting mawlocs on the table in t1 guarantees you put 2 t6 6w 3+sv MC's in your enemy's midst in t2.

Haven't tested carni's or broods of carni's yet because I get my dakka with the flyrant and I like the wounds better on the trygon/mawlocs.

Warriors aren't bad, but with the abundance of melta, kraks, and powerfists/claws, there's too much ID out there for me to use them.

Nidzilla may be possible now, but with things like hypergaunts, supergargs, and free termagants from tervigons buffed up with counterattack, toxins, adrenals, possibly spore cloud, and preffered enemy, I think the next evolution of winning nid lists will be more swarmy.

Here's my Nidzilla list @ 1500 that fared really well in a doubles tournament:

3x Tervigons (2 hq, 1 troop)
1 10x brood of termagants/fleshborers
3x carnifex in a brood w/ st
2x Trygon/AG

It comes in w/ 8 TMC's right at 1500 points. With another 350 I could squeeze in 2 harpies w/ some upgrades for a total of 10.

It might not be the most uber competitive list when you compare it to air cav guard or razorback spam SW, but i had fun with it and after all that is the most important rule, lol.

Its rather an expensive loadout, but if you sit the swarmloard next to the tyranofex you can give it a bs 4 good if you keep the tyranofex moving along the swarm lord or in front to soak up wounds

Chaoslordx13 wrote:Its rather an expensive loadout, but if you sit the swarmloard next to the tyranofex you can give it a bs 4 good if you keep the tyranofex moving along the swarm lord or in front to soak up wounds

I'm curious as to where you see anything that says Swarmlord increases ballistic skill of anything in the army???

He can bestow furious charge or preferred enemy once per turn but that's about it...

The only problem I have with the TMC is the WS 3 and the low number of attacks...

5 attacks, 3 hit, 3 dead marines, 6 marines 12 attacks, 8 hit, 1 wound followed by the powerfist for 3 attacks, 2 hit, 2 wound... a TAC squad that is hardly considered a CC unit can almost tie a TMC and eventually wear it down by the virtue of having 9 wounds and a powerfist against a creature with 6 wounds and a powerweapon that wounds on a 2+...

I think that with an overabundance of MCs the warriors will probably be targeted less often by the high strength guns that could ID them. This would in a way remove their greatest weakness. On the other hand, most anti-infantry weapons would have only the warriors to target, wich is honestly less of a problem since 15 wounds of warriors is easier to find cover for and will take less damage from blast markers and template weapons than 15 wounds of single wound models.

IDK... I think if I were playing a shooty army against 'nids, and I had str8+ weapons to fire, I would use some or a lot of them to ID a unit of warriors.

Think about it... take out 3 wounds by causing 1. Kill synapse and a scoring unit...

For 2k i will test

HQ
Tyrant+Paroxysm+Leech+Old adversary+Shell=235
2xT.Guard+2xWhip=130

Tervigon+T.Sacs+Catalyst=185

Elites
2xHiveguard=100
2xHiveguard=100
2xHiveguard=100

Troops
14xTermagant=70
14xTermagant=70
Tervigon+T.Sacs+Catalyst=185
Tervigon+T.Sacs+Catalyst=185

Heavy
2xCarnyfex=320
2xCarnyfex=320

Total=2000

Run the Carnys and tyrant up front with FNP and attempt to encircle the enemy with 3 large fomations of units, few armies have the dakka to bring so many T6 multywound models down, before they hit and then you must handle whatever the tervigons have spawned which wounds you on a 4 and probbably has preffered enemy. Also the hive guard add some shooty in case of skimmers.

I like Mellon's suggestion of combining Warriors with Monstrous Creatures to split up the effect of anti-tank fire. But I worry that players will just concentrate anti-infantry firepower on them. That's the problem with Tyranids, is that they're vulnerable to both. But I had a notion about "Nidzilla" some time ago, I have a thread here detailing it.

Nurglitch wrote:HQ
Tervigon
w/Catalyst, Onslaught, Scything Talons

Tervigon
w/Catalyst, Onslaught, Scything Talons

Troops
Tervigon
w/Catalyst, Onslaught, Scything Talons

Tervigon
w/Catalyst, Onslaught, Scything Talons

Tervigon
w/Catalyst, Onslaught, Scything Talons

Termagant Brood
x10 Termagants

Termagant Brood
x10 Termagants

Termagant Brood
x10 Termagants

Fast Attack
Harpie
w/Twin-Linked Heavy Venom Cannon, Cluster Spines

Harpie
w/Twin-Linked Heavy Venom Cannon, Cluster Spines

Ravener Brood
x3 Raveners
w/Rending Claws

Heavy Support
Carnifex Brood
x1 Carnifex
w/Heavy Venom Cannon

Carnifex Brood
x1 Carnifex
w/Heavy Venom Cannon

Carnifex Brood
x1 Carnifex
w/Heavy Venom Cannon

Surely in the above (currently under powered list), the addition of tervigon toxin sacs & adrenal glands; the removal of onslaught; Changing the MC-VC's to blast cannons; swapping out all the heavy support for T-fexes and swapping those ravenours for Venomthropes would just make the list so much better? Retaining (I'd say improving) its Nidzilla status & good firepower.

Razerous:

Sure, but where are you going to get the points? To convert each Carnifex to a Tyrannofex you would need 65pts each, 80pts if that Tyrannofex is going to have a Rupture Cannon.

Likewise the addition of Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands would cost +5pts in exchange for Onslaught, but remove the advantage of being able to cast Onslaught on the Carnifexes and each other: being able to run and then shoot, in order to close with the enemy more quickly without sacrificing shooting.

On a related note I don't know what "Changing the MC-VC's to blast cannons" means but I'm guessing you're suggesting exchanging the Heavy Venom Cannons on the Harpies with Stranglethorn Cannons. That would be silly since the massed Heavy Venom Cannon fire is to help suppress the enemy while the Monstrous Creatures close. They're Blast weapons, so there's no particular loss of effectiveness against infantry.

Speaking of loss of effectiveness, without the Raveners to act as a sort of assassin-squad, thanks to their 19-24" charge radius, you'd be giving up the ghost to armies with problematic psycker like Space Wolves, and losing out on a unit that can threaten to lock Imperial Guard firebases on Turn 1-2.

Essentially your assessment of the list as under-powered (which may be true) seems to be based on a lack of understanding of the strategy behind such an army. I suggest reading my notes on it in the thread to which I linked.

Your suggestions would reduce the number of monstrous creature targets in the army, reduce the synergy between the monstrous creature units, and

Nidzilla 2.0

2 Hive Tyrants for HQ
3 Tervigons as troops (+ 3 gaunts for troops)
3 Trygons or Trygon Primes

That's 8 MC and a lot of points. Most all nidzilla lists will be some variation of those 8 MC and variations in the rest of the list. Past that the debate will be centered around swarmlord V hive tyrant, and what 3 elites to take.

I must admit I was sitting on the fence on Tervigon, but after seeing a game with a couple of them in, I like them. But how many times do you go to the well before your Tervigons blow their O-Ring and can't poop out anymore Termagants???

At 1750 points a Tyranid 'Nidzilla' looks like this. Seriously, some armies might be able to spam 14 AV12 tanks into this points value, but atleast the Nids have 54 T6 wounds and 50+ T3 wounds. I wouldn't spend a heartbeat in considering taking a Warrior based list over a Tervigon list. Tervigons are simply great. By the amount of wounds and models this list puts on the table many people would think it's a 2K army, but like I said it's just 1750. Nurglitch's list is on the right track but I have no idea how many points that is and why it doesn't have Hive Guard.

Tervigon 200
Scything talons, adrenal glands, toxin sacs, Catalyst

3 Hive Guard 150

3 Hive Guard 150

3 Hive Guard 150

10 Termagants 50

10 Termagants 50

Tervigon 200
Scything talons, adrenal glands, toxin sacs, Catalyst

Tervigon 200
Scything talons, adrenal glands, toxin sacs, Catalyst

Trygon 200

Trygon 200

Trygon 200

You know Tervigons don't really need adrenals on tervigons I2 isnt that much greater than I1 and at I4 the gaunt are already capable of hitting before or at least simultaniously with most other troop choises, add in the fact that toxins make the extra S useless and its a waste. Same for tyrant he already wounds most things at 2+ and MCs at 4+ with toxins plus having I5 so you know...

Edit: As an IG player before anything else i know the value of keeping things cheap

HoverBoy wrote:You know Tervigons don't really need adrenals on tervigons I2 isnt that much greater than I1 and at I4 the gaunt are already capable of hitting before or at least simultaniously with most other troop choises, add in the fact that toxins make the extra S useless and its a waste.

I agree with this to an extent, but hitting before MEQ is a good thing.

HoverBoy wrote:You know Tervigons don't really need adrenals on tervigons I2 isnt that much greater than I1 and at I4 the gaunt are already capable of hitting before or at least simultaniously with most other troop choises, add in the fact that toxins make the extra S useless and its a waste. Same for tyrant he already wounds most things at 2+ and MCs at 4+ with toxins plus having I5 so you know...

Edit: As an IG player before anything else i know the value of keeping things cheap

Couldn't disagree with you any more. As a matter of fact I've no idea how you could come to these conclusions. First of all toxins don't make extra S useless or a waste. Have you read the rules so you know what it actually does? Do you know what the effect of it is on Gaunts? The initiative is just a bonus. What's the talk about a Tyrant? My list doesn't even have a Tyrant.

Furious charge gives them extra S an I when charging but toxins mean they wound on a 4+ anyway so the extra streinght only comes to help against GEQ where you would wound on 3+ because of S4 anything else – 4+ regardless. As for the Tyrant i was saying in general, adrenals arent all that on MCs.

Also whyle hitting first is allways nice the fact that you can get 2 wounds and 2 (4 on charge) attacks for those points, increasing your chances of getting through thоsе saves seems better to me. Streinght in numbers, and tervigons can generate some good numbers unless you're extreemly unlucky.

You both should keep in mind this is a matter of prefference however and if you prefer it differently, dont feel the need to prove me wrong since both sides have good arguments on theyre side and both tactics shouldn't differ all that much in battlefield performance. I just take the "dicewave" approach to killing things.

I agree with Therion here. Read the rules for poisoned weapons on p42 of the rulebook. And you will see why the poison effect combined with the Ferocious charge is such a wonderful thing. I can agree that it is somehwat unneccesary against IG, but against MEQ or TEQ it works wonder.

The extra I is wonderful, it seriously reduces the effectivity of spacewolves, other tyranids or similar I4 units.

Nidzilla is dead. This codex almost requires a mixed list to be competitive.

The old codex had 113pt dakkafex (broken) and 113pt boomfex (semi broken) and gunfex (really good). The elite fex were really cheap and allowed you to spam a ton of MCs which were also highly effective at killing.

The gunfex gave some decent anti tank weapons (admitedly limited to glancing) but they werent too expensive and they were quite reliable to stun/shake enemy tanks.

The multi purpose of the carnifex for anti infantry and anti tank, as well as its cheap cost allowed you to spam MCs to get the nidzilla list. This codex just does not let you do this at all in a competitive setting.

You are forced to take hive guard/zoans for AT duty, and this eats a chunk of points away from scoring troops and MCs.

Trygons while awesome are a ton more expensive than the old fexes. OK, you could have built the uber cc fex from last codex, but nobody really took the uberfex in competitive builds. So this limits the pure number of MCs you can take, since you cannot take MCs in elite either.

The tyrant got a lot more expensive as well. It may be more effective and have more utility, but again the points increase decreases the effectiveness of a Nidzilla type army.

Nidzilla worked by spamming cheap MCs which were killy. The new dex does not allow this as they are just too expensive.

2-3 Trygons and a HT might be fun and nidzilla-esque, but its horrifically expensive and it doesnt overload MCs as the old Nidzilla list used to do with 6 Fex and 2 HTs for the same cost.

Sorry to be such a downer on it, but I think people should see the new codex for what it is.

2-3 Trygons and a HT might be fun and nidzilla-esque, but its horrifically expensive and it doesnt overload MCs as the old Nidzilla list used to do with 6 Fex and 2 HTs for the same cost.

6 Fex and 2 HT was something that was playable in 2000 points, and yet it had less T6 wounds than the new Zillaesque lists, and would have had incredible problems holding any objectives. I know you're trying to be Mr.Obvious here but you're just wrong. Unless you are talking about the old edition of the game when the Nids' opponents had old army books as well, the new Tyranids are a lot stronger than the old Nids, in any shape or form.

As long as you ignore the points sink units (Hive Tyrant is one) the new list can bring a fearsome amount of monstrous wounds and scoring little critters to be dealt with. From what I'm seeing here it seems to me it will take a long time before the casual Tyranid scene figures out the codex. Same as before though, as it took ages before absolutely everyone started mimicing the Zilla builds a few guys first started toying with. It's nothing abnormal though, afterall most people should know by now what the strongest lists for IG and SW and SM are too, yet people keep playing with junk and wondering why games aren't going very well.

Nurglitch wrote:Razerous:

Sure, but where are you going to get the points? To convert each Carnifex to a Tyrannofex you would need 65pts each, 80pts if that Tyrannofex is going to have a Rupture Cannon.

Likewise the addition of Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands would cost +5pts in exchange for Onslaught, but remove the advantage of being able to cast Onslaught on the Carnifexes and each other: being able to run and then shoot, in order to close with the enemy more quickly without sacrificing shooting.

On a related note I don't know what "Changing the MC-VC's to blast cannons" means but I'm guessing you're suggesting exchanging the Heavy Venom Cannons on the Harpies with Stranglethorn Cannons. That would be silly since the massed Heavy Venom Cannon fire is to help suppress the enemy while the Monstrous Creatures close. They're Blast weapons, so there's no particular loss of effectiveness against infantry.

Speaking of loss of effectiveness, without the Raveners to act as a sort of assassin-squad, thanks to their 19-24" charge radius, you'd be giving up the ghost to armies with problematic psycker like Space Wolves, and losing out on a unit that can threaten to lock Imperial Guard firebases on Turn 1-2.

Essentially your assessment of the list as under-powered (which may be true) seems to be based on a lack of understanding of the strategy behind such an army. I suggest reading my notes on it in the thread to which I linked.

Your suggestions would reduce the number of monstrous creature targets in the army, reduce the synergy between the monstrous creature units, and

There is not one situations where you could get a 1st-turn charge. 3 ravenours @ 2k pts will get decimated by the spare non-heavy firepower any decent army will have. They posses 0 threat whilst wasting 105pts. A wall of flying MC's do this better.

The carnifexes shooting will be entirely sub-par, as will the two harpies. 3 rupture cannons supported by a charging wall of flying MC's will be just better. The stranglethorns provide much better anti-infantry and in terms of MC's.. if you drop one of the MC's to fit it within 2000pts, it comes equal to yours.

The list seems to tote up to an arbitary 2125pts. Mine comes to 30pts more.. I think its better filling the same roll.

Tyrant flies up behind a harpy formation for cover, the lead VC harpy gets Onslaughted. The T-fexes move up pounding away, covered by a wall of gants & tervigons. When the flying MC's hit the enemies lines, a combination of preffered enemy MC's will nuke infantry whilst that many standard MC attacks will nuke vehicles. And quickly.

Oh, drop a tervigon (One of the gant-buffers) to drop this to within 2000pts. And a re-jiggle of the points could allow for those terribly useful venomthropes.

Tyrant + Wings, Old adversary, dual sytals = 250

2xTervigon + Catalyst, Onslaught, Sytals = 390

1xTervigon + Catalyst, Adrenal glands, Toxin sacs, Sytals = 200

3x 10 termagants = 150

1x Harpy
+TL-VC = 170

2x Harpy = 320

3x T-fex
+Rupture (City!) cannon = 825

= 2155

Therion wrote:

2-3 Trygons and a HT might be fun and nidzilla-esque, but its horrifically expensive and it doesnt overload MCs as the old Nidzilla list used to do with 6 Fex and 2 HTs for the same cost.

6 Fex and 2 HT was something that was playable in 2000 points, and yet it had less T6 wounds than the new Zillaesque lists, and would have had incredible problems holding any objectives. I know you're trying to be Mr.Obvious here but you're just wrong. Unless you are talking about the old edition of the game when the Nids' opponents had old army books as well, the new Tyranids are a lot stronger than the old Nids, in any shape or form.

As long as you ignore the points sink units (Hive Tyrant is one) the new list can bring a fearsome amount of monstrous wounds and scoring little critters to be dealt with.

Captain Obvious reporting!

The old Nidzilla relied on WoN gaunts for objectives with all of its associated issues.

I can only assume you are talking about spamming Tervigons to get your MCs and wounds. The thing is, Tervigons just arent that scary or killy.

Yes they can score, yes they spawn termagaunts, yes they are really cheap after you subtract the free units they give but they simply dont create the same threat as the old carnifex.

You will still need to invest points to take out transports (Hive Guard), and heavy armour (Zoans or Tyrannofex), proper ranged weapons (something over 12"), and a proper countercharge unit.

Even if you have loads of Tervigons (MCs and MC wounds), you still need other units to be effective against all comers... what do you have?

Captain Obvious thinks you end up with a mixed list, not a Nidzilla List. Ta-da. Captain Obvious thinks you just made his own point. Don't worry, even before this new codex came out, people have been wrong in the past. You are not the first not will you be the last. The important thing is to take a moment and reflect upon where your logic really failed to connect the dots and admit to yourself what an error you made. Really. Only then can you begin to grow as a person and enjoy the hobby as a richer experience instead of posting ridiculous comments such as

Therion wrote:

. From what I'm seeing here it seems to me it will take a long time before the casual Tyranid scene figures out the codex. Same as before though, as it took ages before absolutely everyone started mimicing the Zilla builds a few guys first started toying with. It's nothing abnormal though, afterall most people should know by now what the strongest lists for IG and SW and SM are too, yet people keep playing with junk and wondering why games aren't going very well.

The Strength of Nidzilla was that the Carnifex could take ALL roles required as an MC itself. The only one it couldn't do was score.

Dakka (infantry and light transport)
Boom (light infantry, ID, light tank)
Gunfex (Armour)

Mass Tervigons cannot do this which is why your assertion that "Nidzilla lives!" is fail. I agree that the new codex is better than the old codex, but it will be better due to balanced lists, not through Nidzilla.

The old Nidzilla relied on WoN gaunts for objectives with all of its associated issues.

No it didn't.

I can only assume you are talking about spamming Tervigons to get your MCs and wounds.

No, I'm not, and I didn't, and you should know it since I've posted the list I'm talking about right in this thread.

Captain Obvious thinks you end up with a mixed list, not a Nidzilla List.

The old list had Hive Tyrants and two different types of Carnifex and either Genestealers or Gaunts. The new list has Tervigons, Hive Guard and Trygons. The new list is less mixed, as everything it spends points on has T6.

The Strength of Nidzilla was that the Carnifex could take ALL roles required as an MC itself. The only one it couldn't do was score.

The old Tyranid codex didn't have any strengths left and it was pathetically underpowered in the modern game. It couldn't score, which is rather essential, but it also had less wounds, less durability, and much less cc power than the new versions of it. Your comments about logic and connecting dots are rather amusing in the light that you don't seem to even understand what we're talking about here. You invented a position for me which I never claimed to have and started arguing from that imaginary starting point, which seems to be that someone would only play with Tervigons. I believe this is because you realised you don't actually know what you're talking about so you decided to shift the discussion to "Tervigons and Trygons together mean a mixed list so you don't have Nidzilla". Let me break it down to you pal, Nidzilla means a Tyranid list focused on monsters, and more specifically not creatures with the monstrous creature rule but creatures that are T6 and therefore being nearly immune to anti-infantry weapons. It is therefore the Tyranid equivalent of 'mech'. Don't worry, I don't mind educating people like you who are a bit new to all of this.

Therion wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:You know Tervigons don't really need adrenals on tervigons I2 isnt that much greater than I1 and at I4 the gaunt are already capable of hitting before or at least simultaniously with most other troop choises, add in the fact that toxins make the extra S useless and its a waste. Same for tyrant he already wounds most things at 2+ and MCs at 4+ with toxins plus having I5 so you know...

Edit: As an IG player before anything else i know the value of keeping things cheap

Couldn't disagree with you any more. As a matter of fact I've no idea how you could come to these conclusions. First of all toxins don't make extra S useless or a waste. Have you read the rules so you know what it actually does? Do you know what the effect of it is on Gaunts? The initiative is just a bonus. What's the talk about a Tyrant? My list doesn't even have a Tyrant.

You really should have explained why furious charge on a gaunt with poisoned attacks is such a good thing against MEQ as the guy who's butt you are chewing obviously doesn't know the benifit.
Str 3 poison against t4 wounds on a 4+
Str 4 poison against T4 wounds on a 4+ and has a re roll on failed wounds

Anyhow back on topic.
Nidzilla 2.0 consists of 3 units of gaunts and 3 tervigons for troops.
At first Tervigons may not seem as impressive as the old Carnifex, but keep in mind they are a troops choice that can claim an objective.
A big fat 6 wound 6 toughness 3+ armor save troops choice.
2/3 games are objective based where troops win the game.

Trygons cost more than the old Carnifex, but they have 6 wounds and drop pod deep strike rules.
3 of them are a major distraction, and you have to look at target saturation.
3 Trygons+ 3 Tervigons=36 wounds on T6 armor armor 3+ MC
Add another 8 wounds for a pair of hive tyrants as HQ, or another 12 wounds for a pair of Tervigons as HQ

Nidzilla 2.0 is nothing like nidzilla 1.0, but it's still a good solid list.

You're missing the point son.

Your list is unbalanced and is not a strong all comers list because you have spent too many points on Trygons and Tervigons.

You are going to have a horrible day vs AV13+ because your ranged shooting consists of S8 and DS Trygons.

You are going to have a horrible day vs assault armies.

You are going to have a horrible day vs any really nasty unit like a daemon prince since you dont have a flyrant to deal with them.

You are going to have a horrible day on KP missions.

You are going to vomit in your mouth a little bit when your solid objective holders get multi-assaulted and you start taking bucket loads of no retreat wounds on your T6 MCs.

My point is, you need to edit your list to be competitive and once you do, you will find its a much more balanced list. The fact that you rock your little friends with your fun list is quite beside the point.

As an experiment, post your genius, ahead of the times, new gamebreaking list, on various other forums, and specifically in other army subforums and see how it matches up vs various all comer lists.

Proto11 wrote:You're missing the point son.

Amusing.

Your list is unbalanced and is not a strong all comers list because you have spent too many points on Trygons and Tervigons. As an experiment, post your genius, ahead of the times, new gamebreaking list

This is on whose authority? Yours? Once again you try to put me into a place where you can argue some imaginary point, in this case trying to claim that I said a list is gamebreaking. I said it's the new version of Nidzilla and I said it's very strong and anyone who doesn't realise it now will just realise it later when the casuals finally copy lists like it and claim them as their own. You as a seemingly new and somehow angry player don't know what you're talking about so therefore every comment you said about 'horrible days' are meaningless and totally without foundation. The part I found especially funny was where you essentially argued that 54 T6 wounds is too many. The list has already been posted online and metagamed with various active Tyranid players, right here on Dakka too, including people who have more than 50 games under their belt with the new Tyranid codex, and the comments are that it's possibly one of the strongest lists possible from the codex in 1750 points. Secondly, it's already been playtested and it has come victorious against armies that include mech IG, SW and SM, although I have to admit that the player who runs this army is one of the best players in the country and an ETC veteran. Now, and I have to spell this out for you because you seem a little slow to understand some things, this doesn't mean it's gamebreaking or that it will go through every tournament undefeated or that it doesn't have weaknesses that someone can try to exploit, it means its competitive.

The fact that you rock your little friends with your fun list is quite beside the point.

Actually how do you know what kind of people you're talking to on the internet? You made the assumption that I haven't had excellent success at major tournaments and official GW GTs in both Fantasy and WH40K , or that my friends haven't, and that me and my friends are young and even the fact that I would play Tyranids myself. The funny thing is that as with pretty much everything else you say you're wrong on each part I'm getting the feeling that you're actually fishing for that 'gamebreaking' army list so you could actually beat your local gaming scene for once. By the way, stop clicking 'enter' twice after each sentence.

To put in my 2 cents.

I think that as far as tervigons go they fulfil a different role to that of the previous edition carnifex. They are less dangerous, but they are harder to kill. And they pump out scoring units while being one themself. Having 3 is points heavy but hard to shake from objectives. In KP's they aren't easy kills either.

I think that if you also add crushing claws to a tervigon they suddenly become much more powerful and nothing short of a multiple assault with several hidden PF/PK's will finish them off, and a decent general will stop these assaults happening by blocking with gaunts.

I'm pretty much siding with Therion here due to the fact that I think he is spot on. I just can't bring myself to field 3 tervigons as I'm having much more fun building other lists.