The Next Evolution of Nidzilla???

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**radiohazard**

On the subject of how many Tervigons you should put in an army - What is the general consensus of the amount of Tervigons in 1500 pts???

BTW Proto 11...

Nidzilla isn't dead, it's EVOLVED!!!

**Lukus83**

I generally use 1, but I think that you could reasonably fit 2 into 1.5k.

**schadenfreude**

Proto11 wrote:You're missing the point son.

Your list is unbalanced and is not a strong all comers list because you have spent too many points on Trygons and Tervigons.

You are going to have a horrible day vs AV13+ because your ranged shooting consists of S8 and DS Trygons.

You are going to have a horrible day vs assault armies.

You are going to have a horrible day vs any really nasty unit like a daemon prince since you dont have a flyrant to deal with them.

You are going to have a horrible day on KP missions.

You are going to vomit in your mouth a little bit when your solid objective holders get multi-assaulted and you start taking bucket loads of no retreat wounds on your T6 MCs.

My point is, you need to edit your list to be competitive and once you do, you will find its a much more balanced list. The fact that you rock your little friends with your fun list is quite beside the point.

As an experiment, post your genius, ahead of the times, new gamebreaking list, on various other forums, and specifically in other army subforums and see how it matches up vs various all comer lists.

Tervigons are not expensive. They may look expensive at 1st glance, but they are no more expensive than any other viable troops choice. Average the cost of a Tervigon plus a small squad of gaunts (About 250), now average the cost of 2 units of warriors and/or genestealers. Try filling out all 6 troops choices for 750 points with warriors or genestealers and what you will end up with is far less durable than Tervigons and gaunts.

AV13+: There is still enough points for zoenthropes. After all MC are purchased there is about 150 to 300 points left over depending if Trygon primes were purchased. In the zoenthrope v hive guard debate zoenthropes are a better unit for nidzilla 2.0 because they add more synapse range for the metric butt ton of gaunts that are going to be spit out.

Assault armies are going to have a hard time with nidzilla 2.0, not the other way around. It's all fun and games until an elite assault unit eats a paroxism and then gets charged by 24 gaunts.
Mathhammer 5 assault termies are charged by 24 gaunts. They strike at I5 before lightning claws, and the termies ate a paroxism.
32 of 48 attacks hit, 24 of 32 hits wound (Str 4 poison), 4 of 24 saves should be unsuccessful=4 dead termies
If it was a squad of assault marines or khorne berzerkers double the body count to 8 dead marines before they ever get a swing.
Newsflash: If nidzilla 2.0 fights an assault army the game will be won by whoever is the better player.

Who says Nidzilla should not have a tyrant? Nidzilla 2.0 should have 2 hive tyrants, but their cost should be kept low and they don't need wings. 2 Tyrants with paroxism and old adversary + 3 Tervigons + 3 gaunts + 3 Trygons primes=1850 Could save 120 points by going without the prime updates for the trygons. Deamon princes should not be a problem for this list, they are a pushover once their WS is reduced to 1 and nothing that gaunts with poisoned attacks and old adversary can't handle.

The army will start at 11 or 12 kill points plus whatever new broods of gaunts are spit out. The average will be about as bad as a mechanized space marine list, and better than a mechanized IG list. Not the end of the world, and the army is set up well for objective based games.

If the MCs are being freely multi assaulted by the opposing player the only logical explanation is that they wiped out the rest of the tyranid army and the tyranid is not a very good player. It's a very workable list, you just have to know how to play it.

**Proto11**

I agree Tervigons are very very cheap and very good for their points cost. I just dont think spamming them and adding 3 Trygons will do very well.

Schaden:

There is no HT to cast paroxism in the above list unless the opponent also gets another 200ish points too.

How often will you get to charge assault terminators with gaunts? They usually come in a LR, which you probably couldnt pop open until they rocked your Terv/Term units.

So you lost Parox, charge bonus, and AG but you still got poison and strike simultaneously so you do half the damage (which still isnt bad)... they strike back simultaneously, do a bunch of wounds and win combat, and then do additional no retreat wounds... (which we dont mind) but then again, who the hell charges assault termies into termagaunts?

The reason why you cant have 2 HTs with this many Trygons and Tervs is you NEED the Hive Guard.

Parox and old adversary is nice, but not as nice as the ability to pop transports and mass indirect fire S8 assault guns.

**winterman**

You are going to have a horrible day vs any really nasty unit like a daemon prince since you dont have a flyrant to deal with them.

I stopped reading here. Daemon Princes aren't even on my longer list of nasty units and I certainly have never needed a flyrant to deal with them.

Even assuming the DP is some sorta nasty unit -- if 3 trygons, a ton of S8 shooting and some dialed up tarpitting termagants can't somehow deal with a daemon prince -- wtf is a flyrant gonna do?

I agree with Therion on every point (and although don't know him personally have read enough of his posts and 4ed batreps to consider him worth reading) but am on the same page as lukus -- nidzilla is still possible and competitive but I'm looking to go another route for the time being (not sure what that is quite yet though lol).

**Gaz-A-Tron**

At the risk of wading into a hot topic, I think there's a couple of things to be said:

1) Tervigon + Venomthroape + Carnifex brood. = 3 fexes, always in cover, nasty to try and assault, with feel no pain. Sure, FNP is a bit of a mixed bag given t6, but my carnifexes tend to keep dying to FRF2RF guardsmen & autocannons as much as they do to lascannons and the like. Plus, shooting a lascannon at something which has a 1/3 chance of ignoring it isn't exactly optimal use.

2) The mawloc - it's a Godloc though not for the way people usually use it. Even if it can't DS under units, it can objective grab anywhere on the board on turn 5/6 - something that nothing else can do as effectively. If it kills something that's a bonus. Plus, it's no fast skimmer when it comes to damage resistance.

I think that tervigons are better served in a score + support role - that said - Therions list is something to consider.

Nidzilla was never a 'take all comers' aka 'toolbox' list. It was more of a sledgehammer - most of Proto's issues with Therions list would equally apply to old nidzilla. It doesn't mean it's not effective - quite the opposite in fact. What it does mean is that when your opponent knows (or guesses) he's going to face you, it's going to suck. Lots. There are (and always have been) plenty of counters to 'zilla, but not many that also fall into the 'take all comers' category. Hence, it's a good 'extreme list' - TAC is only one theory of list building.

Cheers

Gaz-A-Tron

**schadenfreude**

Proto11 wrote:I agree Tervigons are very very cheap and very good for their points cost. I just dont think spamming them and adding 3 Trygons will do very well.

Schaden:

There is no HT to cast paroxism in the above list unless the opponent also gets another 200ish points too.

How often will you get to charge assault terminators with gaunts? They usually come in a LR, which you probably couldnt pop open until they rocked your Terv/Term units.

So you lost Parox, charge bonus, and AG but you still got poison and strike simultaneously so you do half the damage (which still isnt bad)... they strike back simultaneously, do a bunch of wounds and win combat, and then do additional no retreat wounds... (which we dont mind) but then again, who the hell charges assault termies into termagaunts?

The reason why you cant have 2 HTs with this many Trygons and Tervs is you NEED the Hive Guard.

Parox and old adversary is nice, but not as nice as the ability to pop transports and mass indirect fire S8 assault guns.

A pair of 195 point hive tyrants (nothing but old adversary)
3 squads of gaunts at 50 points each
3 Tervigons at 195 points each (Catalyst, adrenal glands, toxin sacs)
3 Trygons at 200 points each
Grand total of 1725 points
My math is spot on for a 2,000 point game.

Though personally I would drop a single Trygon and upgrade the other 2 to primes for a total of 1605 at 2000 point games, and save the 3rd for 2500.

**Proto11**

@schadenfreude

Posts work better if you state from the outset that you are discussing something totally different instead of coming in at the end saying "but totally change the list and/or add a couple hundred points"...

In any event, as Therion has rightly recognised, ranged AT is important, and your list either lacks it (your 1725 list) or has an insufficient amount (potentially 5 HG at 2000).

@Winterman

Trygons are nice in CC but they are more troop/heavy infantry/elite killers than deathstar killers. Deathstar units will munch a Trygon all day.

A flyrant will paroxism it, lash it, and then pummel it to death over a few rounds. Plus a Flyrant is a very mobile reactive force, allowing you to intercept things like DPs before they get to do what they wanted to do.

**radiohazard**

If you have a brood of three Carnifex, do they all have to stay in unit coherency and do they all need to fire at the same target?

**HoverBoy**

Yes its a unit.

**radiohazard**

TY.

Then whats the point of having more than one Carnifex per unit?

**HoverBoy**

More wounds, attacks, firepower, etc. like russ squadrons but without the twig of doom.

**tetrisphreak**

I had an idea for 1500 using HVC's to suppress mech while advancing across the table, but haven't tried it out yet. Have any of my fellow 'nid players here had any luck with spammed HVCs?

**Proto11**

The point of 3 carni in a squad/brood only comes into effect as the point level gets higher so the FOC doesn't limit you. You could, if you wanted, take 9 Fex in 3 broods at high point games.

But you are right, around 1500-2000, there is not THAT much point in sticking them in a brood as its generally better to let them target different units, and not have spillover wounds. However, you can benefit from Onslaught and/or Catalyst as a single brood, which is kind of cool.

Spammed HVC are expensive because they come on a Tyrant or a Fex. For mech suppression, Hive guard do a much better job, more cheaply. x2 shots at -1S (and the lower strength isnt that big of a deal vs AV 10-12). Especially at 1500, you wont be able to have sufficient HVCs vs a proper mech list, sinply because each HVC comes on a unit that is 150 and is single shot blast.

**tetrisphreak**

My thoughts are along with yours, HVC aren't reliable as the only high-strength shooting. I was thinking more along the lines of spending the extra 25 points per model on my existing MCs that i would field anyway, along with the HG and Zoans. I'll playtest around a bit and if i hit on anything i'll post it in the tactics forum.

**Jpr**

This is my current list...similar principle to Therion's but I prefer Tyrannofex's to trygons.

Prime-2 boneswords, toxin
Tervigon-adrenal, toxin, talons, catalyst
3 hive guard
3 hive guard
3 hive guard
10 termagants
10 termagants
tervigon-adrenal, toxin, catalyst
tevigon-catalyst
Tyrannofex-rupture cannon
Tyrannofex-rupture cannon

**Farmer**

Tervigon spam.