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This is the second evolution of this list. Inquisitor rides in a Vendetta and uses the 4d6" deepstrike shot from the Mystics and the massive hull footprint of the 'detta to blast deepstrikers, as well as a LD9 Psychic Hood. MechVets are set up to be fairly versatile (Pillbox on objectives or melta-gun hunt), Psyker Battle Squad is move-and-shoot pie plate. 3x LRBTs this go around because the Pask-Vanquisher really wasn't pulling his weight. Decided on Hull Heavy Flamers for the Chimeras after the Heavy Bolters proved to be pretty fail versus hordes AND MEQs.

What do you guys think? Would this be tournament competitive? What are the major flaws I am not seeing?

Any input welcome, my regular opponent is SM/Orks so I need viewpoints from Eldar/Tau/DE players especially.


HQ:
CCS w/Astropath, Officer of the Fleet, 2xMelta Gun, Autocannon, Chimera (ML/HF)
200pts

Elite:
Allied Ordo Malleus Inquisitor, w/Mystic x2, Hierophant, Psychic Hood
60pts.

Psyker Battle Squad (8) w/Chimera (ML/HF)
155 pts

Troops:
Veterans w/3x Melta Guns, Autocannon, Shotguns, Chimera (ML/HF)
Veterans w/3x Melta Guns, Autocannon, Shotguns, Chimera (ML/HF)
Veterans w/3x Melta Guns, Autocannon, Shotguns, Chimera (ML/HF)
165 pts each.

Fast Attack:
Vendetta
Vendetta
Vendetta
130 pts each

Heavy:
LRBT (HHBolter)
LRBT (HHBolter)
LRBT (HHBolter)
150 pts each

Total: 1750

Looks competitive enough, I think you should consider scrapping something else to fit in at least 1 more scoring unit of veterans.

The CCS is mixed up. You've got a autocannon for range yet meltas for short range. This needs changing. I've found a plasma gun command squad with a medi kit do good things.

Same applies to the vets with the autocannon and meltas. If you want to sit there then get another long-ish range weapon, like a plasma gun - same strength at least.

Autocannons are only 10 points. Not a waste if they decide to objective sit.

I'll play around with points for the CCS Plasma idea though, seems like a good rush unit in theory.

Auotcannons are not a waste for the points, but you're misunderstanding my point. Autocannon has 48" range and a meltagun 12" range, yes? Who is going to come within 12" to get a melta shot eh? If you move in the tank you cannot fire the autocannon.

So the two weapons do not mesh well as you have mis-match ranges and roles for the weapons. Plus you cannot move and shoot heavy weapons, so either way one weapon will be wasted.

No, I got that. What I am saying is that the value of a unit can be measured not only in what it can kill, but what it can prevent being killed by.

You illustrate the point vividly. If nothing wants to come within 12" to get melta'd then I am ok with that, it's a troops unit that can grab an objective. While it's grabbing the objective it can fire it's autocannon, where the meltas would be wasted. If I decide to tank hunt with them then it's only 10 points down the drain. After all it's not detracting (except for the CCS) from the number of specials I can have, as you can have 3 specials AND a heavy. Good value I think... anyone else care to weigh in?

What do you think of the HEAVY/FAST choices mercer? Enough anti-horde or tank busting or do you find it lacking?

Well if you optimize your unit better than nothing would be down the drain would it? Grenade launchers would suit the autocannon better I think, though are still assault weapons. But at least have a better range and more or less same strength and role.

As for fast attack and heavy support. Well I've used vendettas and personally prefer valkyries. Plus you have 3 units of meltas in chimeras. See with the meltas you can pop a transport and then have the valkyrie blast away with multiple missile pods; which btw it can still use if it moves 12" as defensive weapons. I usually put melta vets in valkyries because they can get into range quicker.

Battle tanks are ok for long range but they only kill light stuff and marines. Terminators laugh if off, really. I would trade 2 for demolishers which can do over vehicles and you still have the battle tank for long range support and anti troop. While h-bolters suit the template of the battle tank heavy flamer is better; same profile and auto hits. If you suffer weapon destroyed the turret will more than likely be chosen; the flamer template ignores cover to roll up and unleash the pain.

Is this the list you're suggesting? :

HQ:
CCS w/Astropath, Officer of the Fleet, 2xMelta Gun, Autocannon, Chimera (ML/HF)
200pts

Elite:
Allied Ordo Malleus Inquisitor, w/Mystic x2, Hierophant, Psychic Hood
60pts.

Troops:
Veterans w/3x Grenade Launchers, Autocannon, Shotguns, Chimera (ML/HF)
Veterans w/3x Grenade Launchers, Autocannon, Shotguns, Chimera (ML/HF)
Veterans w/3x Grenade Launchers, Autocannon, Shotguns, Chimera (ML/HF)
Veterans w/3x Grenade Launchers, Autocannon, Shotguns, Chimera (ML/HF)
150 pts each.

Fast Attack:
Valkyrie w/MRL + HBolter Sponsons
140 pts
Vendetta
Vendetta
130 pts each

Heavy:
LRDemolisher (HHFlamer)
LRDemolisher (HHFlamer)
165 pts each
LRBT (HHFlamer)
150 pts

Total: 1750

I've never used grenade launchers before, the seeming unpredictability of blast in this edition makes me a little queasy, and the lack of AP... anyone care to give anecdotal or other support to grenade launchers?

Let me start out by saying that I play a list EXTREMLY similar to this.

Some flaws or things id like to point out are:

- Your CCS is OVERBOARD. Your not a crazy drop troops list, youv already got deep strike hate, lose both advisors. They are a huge point sink. CCS can have 4 special weapons. USE THEM! You are crazy not to take advantage of BS4.

- Upgrades<Units the most power (with guard) comes from people not wargear since out people are so weak. If you look at alot of your wargear you will find you can fit in a whole unit for the same price.

-inquisitor is great! I run mine naked. The best investment if you want to make one is artificer armor + power weapon. You know have a unit that kill non dedicated CCW, iv even had luck killing tact squads with this. 28 pt hood is garbage. If you bust out your calculater you will see why this is not ran. Since you need to exceed your opponents score on a D6. Most scary things are LD10 which means you are now down by 2 on a D6. 50% of the time you wont even need to pick your dice because if your opponent rolls a 4, you cant beat him. Your opponent will roll a 1 once a game and even on that chance you still have a 33% chance to fail. Iv tested this alot and its not worth it. Id invest somewhere else.

- Meltas/plasma for vets. I dont run heavy weapons. Multiple reasons. 1 points, 2 you will always be within 12' to melta/rapid plasma, you may always move your chimera 1 inch to keep from being autohit if assaulted. 3 mixing APs will save stuff like termies with the new wound allocation rules.

- With the lack of good horde armies I run 3 dettas only, I have ran one valk but the dettas are worth their weight in gold. Valks are medicre in their role and are terrible vs the majority of players (mech) That choice is up to you.

-Demolishers rock my socks! I run two demos and a plascutioner which also rocks my socks. No need for the LRBT's range, your whole army is charging straight ahead, might as well bring the armor 14. Highly recommend plascutioner + inquisitor combo. 3 times now I have put 20+ plasma wounds on termies that deep struck too close. The look on my opponents face as I rolled for 5 plasmas during HIS turn is priceless. As for the demolishers, their potential is overlooked by many people. Forget the dettas, these things kill landraiders and and monoliths with ease. Lets see... I scatter an average of 7 inches...minus 3 BS...thats 4 inches... and your tank is huge. Awesome. Ok now to pen.... lets see... str 10 and I still get 2D6 pick the highest vs the monolith. Awesome. No tanks around? Sweet I still got a str 10 AP2 cannon.

I think thats all I can tell you without giving away my trade secrets. I absolutly love playing this army. My advice is play as many games as you can, deployment tricks is what its all about here.

Hope that helps>

Archite666: It was helpful! I dropped the Officer of the Fleet, I just love the re-rollable sides for outflanking vendettas too much to lose the Astropath though. I am keeping the Psychic hood because it's saved my bacon against eldar and chaos numerous times as an ex marine player, and with the Hierophant it counts as LD9 (which is only a -1 penalty meaning you can still win fairly frequently with enemy LD10!, and at 28 points to block EVERY enemy psyker... why not?). I've made some other changes based on recent play testing and your advice:


HQ:
CCS w/Astropath, 4xMelta Gun, Chimera (ML/HF)
180pts

Elite:
ALLIED Ordo Malleus Inquisitor, w/Mystic x2, Hierophant, Psychic Hood, Emperor's Tarot, Targeter
76pts.

Troops:
Veterans w/3x Melta Guns, Shotguns, Chimera (ML/HF)
Veterans w/3x Melta Guns, Shotguns, Chimera (ML/HF)
Veterans w/3x Melta Guns, Shotguns, Chimera (ML/HF)
155 pts each
ALLIED Ordo Malleus Inquisitorial Stormtroopers x5 w/2x Meltaguns
ALLIED Ordo Malleus Inquisitorial Stormtroopers x5 w/2x Meltaguns
70 pts each

Fast Attack:
Vendetta
Vendetta
Vendetta
130 pts each

Heavy:
LRDemolisher (HHFlamer)
LRDemolisher (HHFlamer)
LRDemolisher (HHFlamer)
165 pts each

Total: 1746 points

So, I switched all the LRs to Demolishers (wow, they're amazing en masse!), made all the FA choices stock vendettas, removed autocannons from the vet squads, added 2 Inq Stormtroopers squads to ride in the other vendettas to make them scoring, and suicide out with 2x Melta if it makes sense to do so, added Emperor's Tarot and a Targeter for the inquisitor after reading the FAQ, and dropped the autocannon from the HQ squad while beefing it up to 4 meltaguns.

What do you guys think now?

Impressive sir.

Everything looks very in order.

You have put your own spin on a very good list. I think you are ready to learn to play it. Good luck in your travels.

Latest list is much better and wargear is better setup for synergy.

Let me know how you get on!

zmc wrote:Archite666: It was helpful! I dropped the Officer of the Fleet, I just love the re-rollable sides for outflanking vendettas too much to lose the Astropath though. I am keeping the Psychic hood because it's saved my bacon against eldar and chaos numerous times as an ex marine player, and with the Hierophant it counts as LD9 (which is only a -1 penalty meaning you can still win fairly frequently with enemy LD10!, and at 28 points to block EVERY enemy psyker... why not?). I've made some other changes based on recent play testing and your advice:


HQ:
CCS w/Astropath, 4xMelta Gun, Chimera (ML/HF)
180pts

Elite:
ALLIED Ordo Malleus Inquisitor, w/Mystic x2, Hierophant, Psychic Hood, Emperor's Tarot, Targeter
76pts.

Troops:
Veterans w/3x Melta Guns, Shotguns, Chimera (ML/HF)
Veterans w/3x Melta Guns, Shotguns, Chimera (ML/HF)
Veterans w/3x Melta Guns, Shotguns, Chimera (ML/HF)
155 pts each
ALLIED Ordo Malleus Inquisitorial Stormtroopers x5 w/2x Meltaguns
ALLIED Ordo Malleus Inquisitorial Stormtroopers x5 w/2x Meltaguns
70 pts each

Fast Attack:
Vendetta
Vendetta
Vendetta
130 pts each

Heavy:
LRDemolisher (HHFlamer)
LRDemolisher (HHFlamer)
LRDemolisher (HHFlamer)
165 pts each

Total: 1746 points

So, I switched all the LRs to Demolishers (wow, they're amazing en masse!), made all the FA choices stock vendettas, removed autocannons from the vet squads, added 2 Inq Stormtroopers squads to ride in the other vendettas to make them scoring, and suicide out with 2x Melta if it makes sense to do so, added Emperor's Tarot and a Targeter for the inquisitor after reading the FAQ, and dropped the autocannon from the HQ squad while beefing it up to 4 meltaguns.

What do you guys think now?

Couple things:

LD9 psychic hood is not worthwhile, either upgrade the inquisitor to a lord or drop the hood. Emperor's tarot only increases your chances of going first by about 6%, so only get it if you have 15 points to spare (this is a guard list so as a rule you do not have 15 points to spare). Inquisitor's retinue is a good place to pick up cheap, 4+ save plasma guns, I usually run him with 3 plasma warriors and 2 mystics.

You have way too much anti-heavy vehicle. 6 melta gun squads and 3 demolishers is overkill, I usually only run 3 or 4 melta squads at 2000 points. Your long range anti-light vehicle is decent, but you could improve it by putting the autocannon teams back in a few vet squads. Plasma vets with an autocannon team usually works prety well, as the plasma vets don't have to rush into midfield right away like the melta vets.

Melta teams and vendettas have conflicting roles, vendettas want to skirt the edge of the board and shoot at light armour whereas melta teams want to get close to enemy armour as soon as possible. What are you going to do with the stormtroopers if an alpha strike isn't possible? A vendetta with a melta team inside is a juicy target, and if the vendetta gets blown up that 5 man team isn't going to survive for very long (you can't even order them to get back in the fight if they start to fall back).

I think your anti-infantry firepower is lacking, I would drop 1 or 2 demolishers and pick up a manticore or 2.

Change the vendettas for valkyries and I'd put a few melta vets in there. Strike a transport and then fire with multiple missile pods.

mercer wrote:Change the vendettas for valkyries and I'd put a few melta vets in there. Strike a transport and then fire with multiple missile pods.

I resepctfully disagree; this is a bad idea...very bad...

Dropping pie plates that wound your guys on 3s that close to your Vets is a good way to lose them. The pods aren't TL like the Vend's Lascannons.....suicide squads are one theng, but that is just waaaaaaay too risky...at least make the other guy waste time by killing your suicide squads...don't do it for him.

Also, in todays mech environment, along with all the anti-infantry that IG has access to, it is a waste to give up 3x mobile Twin Linked Lascannons (the only place you can get them in the Dex) for S4 pie plates and yet ANOTHER scatter laser....

I would only field Valks over Vends if I knew for certain that I would be facing hordes. For Mech lists, bike lists, and even foot MEQ lists, the Vends will serve you much better. 3 TL lascannons on side armor is a beautiful thing

If you are rushing up field to drop off a 3 melta vet squad why is your valk wasting pie plates on a tank?

I run in 2k 3 dedicated role types of guard

2x melta squads in valks for anti tank

2x flamer squads in chimeras for anti horde

2x plas autocannon in chims for objective sitting/termies/light armor

the plas squads sit with my ccs that are also plas based.

exacutioner (plas tank)

demolisher

regular russ (have been thinking of either another demolisher or the 2d6 added together tank you buy the anti armor shells for)

I play a lot of orkz though so you may not need the anti horde.

I have never been big on using inqusitors or special characters, cool fluff but not my thing.

As always YRMV

I have to disagree with almost all the advice presented after mine. I hate to sound biased but I don't happen to agree with the rest of the advice presented here...

Mech guard is super aggressive, heavy weapons don't work. Why would you want to sit back and shoot with a single autocannon? Plasma vets always move 12, pop smoke then move 6 and start rapid firer plasma.
Autocannons are pretty crap anyway, I use str 9 to pop light amor NOT str 7. Str 7 is for popping people.

The list is all about saturation.

I do agree that LD9 is crap for the reasons I already explained and my math was already based on the hieophant giving LD 9, you still need to BEAT your opponents roll on a D6. So like I said if you opponent rolls a 4, you dont even need to pick up your dice. Also 28 points is alot of points in a mech guard list. Thats like 3 stubbers on chimeras.

The amount of armor at tournaments is high, I dont disagree with all melta but I personally use a couple plasma vet teams. Melta does great things, kills high toughness+ no WBB roles.

Storm troopers dont have to alpha stike to be amazing. The vendetta dont need to hunt tanks to be amazing. All it has to do is move 24' onto the 5th objective with troopers inside at the end of turn 7 and you can say those magic words " I win"

Archite666 and I are thinking along the same lines. Saturation and redundancy as force multipliers.

I only got 1 game in after posting the list and it was versus mech eldar with a seer council. I tabled an opponent that I had trouble getting a draw against with my SM before I quit playing, so in that respect at least, I am happy.

Psychic Hood is still feeling like a positive investment, I blocked a few of those eldar storm things that can spin your vehicles around that he was trying to use before he closed near the chims, made him antsy. I raped his armor so badly it was almost comical.



As far as ideology on the all-melta and "suicide" IST squads I really just park the chims on objectives and plink away with the dettas and the demolishers while waiting for the opponent to make his move (with associated multilaser fire harassing his transports) and then once it nears end-game I swept in with the scoring dettas to secure the win. It seems like a fun list with a lot for me to learn on deployment and movement. I made some major blunders that could have cost me if he wasn't so afraid of flamers and meltas.

The bottom line is that an autocannon is a 10 point investment that greatly increases the versatility of a vet squad. If your opponent has a lot of light vehicles, or if it's too hot to rush into midfield, then you can sit back for a turn or 2 and still be capable of causing damage. If you need to get your vets into your opponent's face right away, then you're only wasting 10 points so it's not a big deal. Vets without a heavy weapon must rush into the enemy lines to be a threat; your opponent knows this, and he will plan for it accordingly. 10 points for the ability to keep your opponent guessing? That's a good deal in my book.

Regarding melta vets in vendettas, I rarely play games where my vendettas survive past turn 3 or 4. Competent opponents bring armies with a lot of anti-mech firepower, and they usually use that firepower to down my birds. It sucks to lose 130 points, but it sucks even more to lose 200 points. If your vendettas are still alive turn 4, you can load a dismounted vet squad into them and zoom them onto an objective next turn. Don't expect them to live though, a vendetta with nothing in it is already a pretty juicy target.

Also, an autocannon is better than a lascannon at popping AV10 and AV11, and only a bit worse at popping AV12 (same chance of getting on the damage table but the lascannon will pen more).

There are no melta vets in vendettas, if you had read the list you would have noticed 2 5man Inquisitorial Stormies that have 2 meltas each for riding in the vets.

The last is a solid list.

Melta ISTs in vendettas seems a nice idea, when you cannot afford 5 vets squad.

zmc wrote:There are no melta vets in vendettas, if you had read the list you would have noticed 2 5man Inquisitorial Stormies that have 2 meltas each for riding in the vets.

Pretty clear from my response that I knew this. 130+70 = 200. A melta vet squad is not 70 points, an allied IS squad with 2 meltas is.

I just noticed that after posting. Sorry.
As a point of clarification from what you guys have been saying, I am curious as to what you think would be a larger waste of points:

28 point Psychic Hood

OR

30 points to put autocannons back into the vet squads

I've found the lack of the autocannons to be a bit of a downer for some of the reasons mentioned previously in this thread, and the psychic hood is only situationally useful (facing other LD9 psykers, or psyker dense opponents where it will statistically yield more "hits").
So, if I had to choose one of the two, is autocannons the winner? Or is there a third option that isn't occurring to me?

This is the final version of the list I came up with based on further playtesting and the recommendations made here. I put the autocannons back into the vet squads in the chims, a few games they have made the difference shaking opponent transports first turn or even popping a dread, it was a worthwhile trade-off for the Psychic Hood, which I dropped. I also incorporated the Plasma CCS it really helped take down some TMCs. For anyone interested in the final outcome of the C&C:

HQ:
CCS w/3xPlasma Gun, Medi-pack, Chimera (ML/HF)
180pts

Elite:
ALLIED Ordo Malleus Inquisitor, w/Mystic x2, Emperor's Tarot, Targeter
50pts.

Troops:
Veterans w/3x Melta Guns, Autocannon, Shotguns, Chimera (ML/HF)
Veterans w/3x Melta Guns, Autocannon, Shotguns, Chimera (ML/HF)
Veterans w/3x Melta Guns, Autocannon, Shotguns, Chimera (ML/HF)
165 pts each
ALLIED Ordo Malleus Inquisitorial Stormtroopers x5 w/2x Meltaguns
ALLIED Ordo Malleus Inquisitorial Stormtroopers x5 w/2x Meltaguns
70 pts each

Fast Attack:
Vendetta
Vendetta
Vendetta
130 pts each

Heavy:
LRDemolisher (HHFlamer)
LRDemolisher (HHFlamer)
LRDemolisher (HHFlamer)
165 pts each

Total: 1750 points

I would actually throw back the hood, unless you know you're not fighting psychers.

I know redundancy is good, but....3 demolishers is overkill. If you really want to pop AV14 easily, grab a Manticore.

Also, you might want to consider 1 vanilla russ, just because of the massive range.

Stormtroopers? Haven't used those, can't really comment on them.

Demolishers are gross. But I agree. i would only take a max of two. The battle cannon range is just amazing.

I'm going for overkill here guys! That's the point!

It's been my own personal preference ever since trying them that the 10 points to upgrade a LRBT to a Demo is the best 10 points a guard player can EVER spend ;p

Alerian wrote:

mercer wrote:Change the vendettas for valkyries and I'd put a few melta vets in there. Strike a transport and then fire with multiple missile pods.

I resepctfully disagree; this is a bad idea...very bad...

Dropping pie plates that wound your guys on 3s that close to your Vets is a good way to lose them. The pods aren't TL like the Vend's Lascannons.....suicide squads are one theng, but that is just waaaaaaay too risky...at least make the other guy waste time by killing your suicide squads...don't do it for him.

Also, in todays mech environment, along with all the anti-infantry that IG has access to, it is a waste to give up 3x mobile Twin Linked Lascannons (the only place you can get them in the Dex) for S4 pie plates and yet ANOTHER scatter laser....

I would only field Valks over Vends if I knew for certain that I would be facing hordes. For Mech lists, bike lists, and even foot MEQ lists, the Vends will serve you much better. 3 TL lascannons on side armor is a beautiful thing

And what are you going to do when you've busted that transport? Oh yeah, the squad inside will come out and bust you nuts! Sure the templates may scatter on your troops, but they're a suicide unit and end up dead anyway - they're only guardsmen. With the templates and multi laser you have anti troop which can possibly kill quite a few targets - what you got with 3 lascannons? Not going to kill much is it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

zmc wrote:


Troops:
Veterans w/3x Melta Guns, Autocannon, Shotguns, Chimera (ML/HF)
Veterans w/3x Melta Guns, Autocannon, Shotguns, Chimera (ML/HF)
Veterans w/3x Melta Guns, Autocannon, Shotguns, Chimera (ML/HF)
165 pts each

WTF are you doing? You're list is going backwards in the troop department. Drop those autocannons asap as they do not suit the list. Your meltas need to be moving all the time to get into melta range - you cannot fire autocannon while moving so it's wasted. Melta is serious anti tank, what is a autocannon going to do? So you've got no synergy in your troop units with that autocannon. You cannot move and shoot, like you can with meltas and most tanks will laugh at a autocannon yet wet themselves with meltas. Drop the autocannon and invest the 10 points else where, some where useful. Do not listen to people who say it's only 10 points etc etc etc. It's a waste of 10 points with meltas.

Also you're very geared up against armour, however you will struggle against hordes. You have 3 large blast templates and that is it. Those will be high priority on a horde players list. Drop those and you have no anti horde weapons. This is why valkyries with missile pods are useful because they can move 12" and still fire all weapons as the pods are defensive weapons - proxy them, I used vendettas before but now only take valkyries - 2 pie templates a turn? Oh yes!

Mercer: It's more of a question of "What else am I going to do with 30 spare points?" Psychic hood and 3 Autocannons both fit inside it... not much else that I can think of.

Hordes eat get to eat the Flamers on... well... everything. I've tabled our local orks players every time so far, but he could just suck at dodging flamers ;p

I could fit in a Leman Russ Exterminator with Sponson Plasma Cannons to help with hordes, but it would require:

Dropping:
Emperor's Tarot
1x Meltagun from IST Squads
Plasma Pistol from CCS
Autocannons

I really like the IDEA of Leman Russ Exterminators... but don't have much experience with them. They seem to have a huge "Oh ShUCKS!" factor though.

Just use those 30 points else where. You just clutching at straws to use those autocannons because you have the points. They do not fit with the melta squads. I'd personally rather take heavy stubbers, at least can gun stuff down if move.