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triple post? WTF

Triple post?

I'm not sure I'm a fan of the Autocannons in the Vet squads. I'd rather have 3x Plasma Gun and a Chimera as their loadouts.

I also don't like the 200pt command squad much. I really don't think you need the IQ AND Offifer of the Fleet in the list, that seems a bit much. Personally I'd drop them both.

No reason for the med-pack. Even with FNP they're still just 5 crappy T3 models with a 5+ save. Just because it can gain FNP doesn't mean it'll make the unit suddenly survivable. I really think its best to keep the CCS as cheap as possible. For me that is 4x Melta and a Chimera.

I'd put the melta guns in the CCS. It is basically a tossaway unit in 2/3 of games played since it can't score, and you should be more than happy to trade it for a Land Raider or something similar. Even in KP games, giving up the CCS to really neuter your opponent's ability to fight back can be crucial.

What is the point of the allied IQSTs? I feel like they're simply not necessary and if you want more troops, another unit of Vets would serve you better (slightly more points for twice the bodies and an extra special weapon). If you're worried bout scoring units then maybe, but I personally play my 1750 list with just 3 Vet squads and do completely fine on objective games.

The Russes aren't my preference (I can get 2 Manticores and 2 Hydras for their points straight up, and it isn't hard to find 60 points for the third Hydra to round it out) but they're definitely not bad.

Caffran9 wrote:

No reason for the med-pack. Even with FNP they're still just 5 crappy T3 models with a 5+ save. Just because it can gain FNP doesn't mean it'll make the unit suddenly survivable. I really think its best to keep the CCS as cheap as possible. For me that is 4x Melta and a Chimera.

I'd put the melta guns in the CCS. It is basically a tossaway unit in 2/3 of games played since it can't score, and you should be more than happy to trade it for a Land Raider or something similar. Even in KP games, giving up the CCS to really neuter your opponent's ability to fight back can be crucial.

What is the point of the allied IQSTs? I feel like they're simply not necessary and if you want more troops, another unit of Vets would serve you better (slightly more points for twice the bodies and an extra special weapon). If you're worried bout scoring units then maybe, but I personally play my 1750 list with just 3 Vet squads and do completely fine on objective games.

I have to disagree about the CCS. I used 4 plasmas and by turn 3 the squad either had few members left or wiped out because of failed gets hot rolls and then butchered becasue of low numbers. With a medi-kit you get that 5+ and then 4+ which can really save your bacon. I found my squad lasted to turn 7 in a recent game and lost a whole lot longer in other ames. It doesn't make the unit more survivable.

Using 4 meltas is just making them a suicide squad. The CCS has other uses which can be used as a utility for your army - do not throw that away by throwing them to the wolves.

The point of the IQST's is exactly what you suggested for the CCS. Except they're troops so can score and cost cheaper. Plus they only do one role, while the CCS as mentioned is a army utility.

I think he was looking at an older version of the list, as the latest one didn't have an officer of the fleet?

And the 3xPlasma+Medipack CCS had me skeptical at first, until they drive-by'd a few terminators and a whole load of MEQ. Having no fear of double-tapping the plasma makes the medi-pack worthwhile.

This is probably a preference thing but I just feel like the Melta CCS is much more effective and efficient at doing what it is designed to do with their meltaguns than anything else in the army book. For me IG is really about maximizing efficiency in order to get as many guns as possible (hence why I also don't like the Leman Russes).

I'd rather keep everything in the list as simple as possible in order to take more of it. A CCS doesn't really serve a lasting function in a list like this. It can be equipped to completely destroy a problem unit and once that is done, it seems really unnecessary to try and protect 5 guardsmen that aren't part of a scoring unit. I feel like mech IG struggles more with AV14 (from range... up close forget about it though) than it does with anything else that an opposing player can put on the table. A melta CCS is basically a hard counter to that. Also dropping the medi-pack and switching the plasma guns to melta guns will let you upgrade all 9 of your vet squad weapons to plasma guns, which will let them do something early on in the game (take advantage of those 6 firepoints on the Chimeras) and better help them put down good firepower against things that aren't tanks late in the game. At str 7 they can still do serious damage to light armor/transports in close as well.

The IQSTs just don't seem as consistant in this role as the melta CCS since it takes 3 meltas to average a dead tank. With only 2 in the IQST units and no way to order them to Bring It Down you're literally counting on a bit of luck and the reason Mech IG is so deadly is that it can put so much stuff onto the table that it can override luck the vast majority of the time. Slightly subpar rounds of shooting with IG are equivilent to decent/good rounds from most other armies because there are so many guns everywhere. The Stormtrooper units will be reliant on your good rolls to hit in order to really perform their role. I wouldn't want to rely on them because of that when I could pay almost the same points for 4 meltas that can TL themselves and aren't a scoring unit.

You can't issue orders to units in tanks, to include the officer ordering his own unit inside the tank with him, unless I am mistaken. Making the TL argument confusing to me. Chimeras only have 5 firepoints as well, even though it's moot to the argument at hand.

The ISTs aren't intended to be parachuting out, their primary role is actually just to make the vendettas scoring for endgame snatch'n'grab, the meltas are just to give them some teeth should they crash land. Vet squads with plasma = suicide. The 5+ save alone really won't let many live.

I hear lots of people advocating a medic in a plasma CCS, so lets run the numbers.
I'm going to assume that the CCS is rapid firing and that no orders have been issued for simplicity.

4 plasma CCS:

First turn of shooting:
8 plasma shots, 1.33 gets hot!, 0.89 vets die. 3.11 vets remain, 8 plasma shots total.

Second turn of shooting:
6.22 plasma shots, 1.04 gets hot!, 0.69 vets die. 2.42 vets remain, 14.22 plasma shots total.

Third turn of shooting:
4.84 plasma shots, 0.81 gets hot!, 0.54 vets die. 1.88 vets remain, 19.06 plasma shots total.

Fourth turn of shooting:
3.76 plasma shots, 0.63 gets hot!, 0.42 vets die. 1.46 vets remain, 22.82 plasma shots total.

1 medic, 3 plasma CCS:

First turn of shooting:
6 plasma shots, 1 gets hot!, 0.33 vets die. 2.67 vets remain, 6 plasma shots total.

Second turn of shooting:
5.34 plasma shots, 0.89 gets hot!, 0.3 vets die. 2.37 vets remain, 11.34 plasma shots total.

Third turn of shooting:
4.74 plasma shots, 0.79 gets hot!, 0.26 vets die. 2.11 vets remain, 16.08 plasma shots total.

Fourth turn of shooting:
4.22 plasma shots, 0.7 gets hot!, 0.23 vets die. 1.88 vets remain, 20.30 plasma shots total.



So the 4 plasma CCS will put out more plasma death, even in a game where they are able to rapid fire 4 times (unlikely unless you are playing an army that doesn't target them at all). The 4 plasma CCS is also 15 points cheaper than the 3 plasma 1 medic CCS. One might argue that the medic protects the squad from shooting and assault deaths as well, but if a CCS is getting shot at or assaulted it's almost always screwed, medic or no medic.

Is either option really worth it though? I usually run my CCS as a suicide melta squad; you need 4 BS4 twin linked meltas to reliably take out a land raider, and the CCS can supply this for the bargain basement price of 90 points (not including mandatory transport). Melta squads are often suicide squads, and I'd rather suicide a CCS than a scoring vet squad.

Hmm, there's one thing that I see that may be a detriment to you list. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you mentioned you were putting your inquisitor in a valk. The problem I see there is that you're cutting yourself short on the distance he is within range of a deep striking unit. Yes you get the 4d6, but you're measuring from the hull so wouldn't you have to subtract the hight of the Valkyrie from the 4d6? That and any other unit you want to nominate would have to be within 6" or so instead of 12".

What I propose something along the lines jcage is suggesting: Keep the psychic hood, drop the medic in your HQ, put melta guns in the HQ, and put them in the vendetta. Give your inquisitor a Rhino b/c the DH chimera is simply too expensive, and throw in 3 IST warriors with 3 plasma guns. Maybe that would work better and you'd get some plasma guns for cheap compared to IG codex plasma guns (Granted, you wouldn't have the medic though) And you'd have to allocate 30 points for the 3 plasma guns for the warriors somehow.

The ridiculously huge size of the vendetta would more than make up for the distance lost from it's height in this case, as the distance is measured from "anywhere on it's hull"