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As the title. Can fearless units be affected by the Dark Eldar terrorfex.

I have an opponent that insists that it can, and that a GW rep responded that yes it may affect fearless units.

Akaiyou wrote:As the title. Can fearless units be affected by the Dark Eldar terrorfex.

I have an opponent that insists that it can, and that a GW rep responded that yes it may affect fearless units.

RaW, it can. It causes a Leadership test, which causes the unit to be pinned if it fails.

This is NOT the same as a Pinning Test, which Fearless units automatically pass. GW have not errata'd it, so it's one of those quirks from having a Codex older than 99% of the games players. To be fair, DE need all the help they can get, so let him have it

Ah, but INAT ruled it otherwise and i understand the Ld test reasoning for it, however this is still a test for pinning.

Seems sketchy to me but fair enough if no one else disagrees from hear on forth Terrorfex shall pin fearless units as well.

Akaiyou wrote:Ah, but INAT ruled it otherwise and i understand the Ld test reasoning for it, however this is still a test for pinning.

Seems sketchy to me but fair enough if no one else disagrees from hear on forth Terrorfex shall pin fearless units as well.

Well, they always have (in 5th anyway, I cant be arsed getting my old rulebooks out). The INAT "Clarification" is incorrect and should be labeled as a rules change.

The counter argument is that a leadership test which, if failed, causes pinning is, by definition, a type of pinning test.

Let's travel back in time to the last times that this topic came up:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/258611.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/261057.page
and http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/265736.page.

Can we just fast forward to the thread lock?

Gwar: You missed the updated stats in the 5th edition rulebook on page 105:

on the terrorfex entry it states:

Only roll to hit. If 1+ models hit, their unit must take a pinning test.

So fearless units avoid it, as they automatically pass pinning tests.

but fearless units always pass leadership tests they are required to make

so yes they take the test, but auto pass it

asugradinwa wrote:Gwar: You missed the updated stats in the 5th edition rulebook on page 105:

on the terrorfex entry it states:

Only roll to hit. If 1+ models hit, their unit must take a pinning test.

So fearless units avoid it, as they automatically pass pinning tests.

And you missed the part at the start of the summary saying that the Codex Trumps rulebook for that section.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:but fearless units always pass leadership tests they are required to make

so yes they take the test, but auto pass it

... -Facepalm-
Fearless do NOT pass all Leadership tests... They pass two VERY SPECIFIC types, neither of which are caused by a Horror/Terrorfex.

Gwar! wrote:

asugradinwa wrote:Gwar: You missed the updated stats in the 5th edition rulebook on page 105:

on the terrorfex entry it states:

Only roll to hit. If 1+ models hit, their unit must take a pinning test.

So fearless units avoid it, as they automatically pass pinning tests.

And you missed the part at the start of the summary saying that the Codex Trumps rulebook for that section.

Only if the codex was released after the rulebook.

asugradinwa wrote:Only if the codex was released after the rulebook.

Really, where does it say this? All my Rulebook says is:

As such, in the event of any contradiction between this section and any of the individual codexes, the codexes always take precedence.

No mention of this "after the rulebook was released" that you are making up.

Asu:Incorrect, READ the statement at the top of the section, which *explicitly* states that the COdex trumpts the rulebook where there are any discrepancies.

Note that distinct lack of any conditions on the codex overruling - ALL that matters is the codex is prime, regardless of when they were released.

asugradinwa wrote:

Only if the codex was released after the rulebook.

That is actually in no way shape or form true. Specific rules always override general rules, they are called 'exceptions.'

Sorry, I must be wrong on this one as it is not RAW, I must have been thinking of the throne of skulls FAQ.

I like to point out to the parties interested that the same rulebook that says "Codex > Rulebook"

Also says on Page 105 of your 5th edition booklet. That the Terrorfex causes a PINNING TEST. Thus ignored by Fearless units.

So if we avoid picking and choosing which wordings to listen to. It is possible to take in the 'whole and assume that it's either a typo which they need to correct or that they wanted to update that 12 year old rule within the rulebook itself without having to ERRATA it.

Anyone else agree?

Akaiyou wrote:I like to point out to the parties interested that the same rulebook that says "Codex > Rulebook"

Also says on Page 105 of your 5th edition booklet. That the Terrorfex causes a PINNING TEST. Thus ignored by Fearless units.

So if we avoid picking and choosing which wordings to listen to. It is possible to take in the 'whole and assume that it's either a typo which they need to correct or that they wanted to update that 12 year old rule within the rulebook itself without having to ERRATA it.

Anyone else agree?

... it says the Codex Trumps the rulebook, so you follow the Rules in the codex. How hard is that to understand?

Do your tau still take target priority tests? The rulebook says ignores outdated rules in the codex...but oh wait we are supposed to ignore everything else the rulebook says minus that one line right?

See what i mean?

If you start picking and choosing when to listen and when not to, you end up with a gakload of contradictions.

Outnumbering, priority tests, etc = outdated. Meaning the rules are no longer supported for that action.

Now, let's see here, the terrorfex comprises 3 main parts.

The blast marker. (Please, I'm BEGGING you, TRY to argue that blast markers are outdated...)

The Leadership test with a modifier. (Notice the word that begins with "L" and ends with "-eadership".)

The pinning. (THIS is the subject of discussion. However, since we're arguing based on Akai's comment as to whether or not it's 'outdated', I think it's safe to say that pinning as a result of a weapon's special rule is not in any way outdated.)

Thus, there are only 2 things really being argued here:

1: The RAW.
2: The Codex vs. Main rulebook.

Now, the rulebook itself says that it takes second place to the codex. Therefore, we can successfully (I think) throw out number 2. We have a rulebook and a codex. The rulebook says the codex takes precedence. The codex says the codex takes precedence. Any questions?

In conclusion, I declare that we shall spend the next year as we spent the last few in regards to Dark Eldar rules discussions: Arguing whether fearless units auto-pass Leadership tests. After all, the only other option is to wait for a Dark Eldar codex... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

...
...
...
Is it out yet?




Edit: My personal opinion is that fearless states that the unit cannot fail a pinning test. A pinning test is a type of LD test, but it is not the only type of LD test. Therefore, the fact that a horrorfex doesnt make you take a pinning test means there is no pinning test to auto-pass.

I could of sworn somewhere that Gwar said that the Codex does not trump the rulebook, but what do I know.

TheTrueProtoman wrote:I could of sworn somewhere that Gwar said that the Codex does not trump the rulebook, but what do I know.

No, it doesn't... in General.

In general, the More Specific Rule trumps the Less Specific Rule.

However, the Summary pages of the Rulebook very clearly state:

As such, in the event of any contradiction between this section and any of the individual codexes, the codexes always take precedence.

Which means for the summary section ONLY, the Mantra of "Codex > Rulebook" is correct.

TheTrueProtoman wrote:I could of sworn somewhere that Gwar said that the Codex does not trump the rulebook, but what do I know.

The codex does *not*, automatically trump the rulebook - except in 2 instances

1) where the codex and the rulebook both have the *exact* same rule, the codex version takes precedence. this is explicitly stated in the rulebook under smoke launchers, for example
2) the summary in the back of the BRB explicitly states that the codex DOES take precedence.

Gwars! statement above was in relation to 2), it is NOT a general statement - removing context is a nono

In general the rule is Specific > General

By the way i find this quite odd that Gwar is now supporting that the terrorfex pins fearless units I actually read a number of threads on the matter

And he was pretty adamantly against it what's the deal with the change of heart Gwar? After reading tons of your post there this seems rather ridiculous.

Solkan posted 3 threads to look into, dealing with this same issue. I would recommend that Syraphym take a good long look at those just like i did, to see what others have said on the issue and how they view it. After reaching such I definetly agree with the old Gwar and the great majority that agreed that there is no PINNING.

Like willy on there said, you can either choose to use the FAQ and determine that there is no such thing as "PINNED" in the current rules, or you can choose to NOT use the FAQ and end up with a rule that is obsolete and thus not applicable. Furthermore the newest rulebook lists that effect as a pinning test which just like Gwar was telling me himself, they wouldn't just write stuff they dont intend thus the intent is for it to be a pinning test with current rules.

And like i said before why do people choose to listen to the rulebook in some instances and yet ignore it on other instances?

If the rulebook tells you 'don't listen to me, I lie'

why would you not also assume that, that very sentence could be a lie as well? Do you understand what i'm getting at?

Why all the contradictions when approaching rules is what i do not understand. I call for fairness.