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I've been having some difficulty beating IG recently, especially in objectives missions while playing CSM.
I was just wondering what has worked best for other people when playing against 'Leafblower'.


Some of the strategies I've used:

-Outflanking 5xmelta chosen (works well for their purpose, but their survivability after their 1 round of shooting is nill)
-DSing termicide
-DSing oblits
-Rhino rush w or w/o combi-meltas

Some of the strategies I'm thinking of using:

-Autocannon Havocs
-Shooty Rhinos (i.e. Havoc Launcher + NM)
-Using an almost minimum pt HQ

Strategies that haven't really work:

-Lash (DPs in general as well)
-Troop spam
-Raptors
-I'm also debating dropping some of my melta or incorporating some more CC into my lists. It seems like if you're facing a parking lot shooting bolt pistols and getting off a triple charge is preferable to blowing up a tank and standing still. Am I incorrect in this assumption or is this too situational?

I know a lot of these strategies are contextual but I'm trying not to focus too much on that. Obviously there is a luck component as well i.e. math-hammer, dice rolling, 2 objectives table quarters going second vs. KP dawn of war going first, etc.

Any other strategies (overall or specific) and how well they've fared for you would be greatly appreciated.


PS. Chaosy (is that an adjective? ) options are preferred. Playing SM with Chaos is kinda boring.

the chaos army that gave me the most grief (me being a guard player) was one with three lascannon preds as heavy support, and all plague marines as troops. I lacked the heavy weapons to deal with both of those threats. I still won, but that was more of really bad target priority decisions (hint: use the preds to shoot basilisks over chimeras)

A strategy that I've been working on has been infiltrating Chosen with an icon to summon large numbers of lesser daemons deep into the enemy's ranks. Large squads of daemons can multi charge right out of deepstrike with 3 attacks apiece on the charge. Enough S4 attacks against AV10 will glance vehicles enough to do some damage (rip off guns, immobilize) and at least keep them from firing. Like with most Chaos armies, you're just trying to buy time for your big hitters to come and do the real damage, so any round you can at least keep guns from firing, the better for your Lords, Sorcerers, Princes, Berserkers, etc. to come and wipe the floor with puny Guardsmen.

I have to support your use of autocannon havocs. They are a cheap and effective way to drop light vehicles and kill anything inside just as easily. If they could split their fire like long fangs or get "tank hunter" upgrades they would be perfect but we'll have to wait a bit more for that.

Leafblower is one of the more competitive builds from one of the most competitive armies so it is certainly a challenge. The best you can do is take the most effective units you have at taking down armor and go at it.

Gonna have to agree with Halsfield at this point, Autocannon Havocs will be your most cost-effective bet.

Looks ok, I think I know what it is, bout could you explane "Leaf Blower"

Would Raptors with Meltaguns be a viable option for the OPs situation? They have some speed, so far as I know can deepstrike, and provide a place for a sorcerer with a jump pack to hide until there are targets for lash.

I could be just way off here.

Cheers,
~Volkan

Anpu42 wrote:Looks ok, I think I know what it is, bout could you explane "Leaf Blower"

Pretty much AV12 spam from hell. A guy won 'Ard Boyz last year, his list looked like this:

"The Leafblower" List - 2500 pts

2 Company Command Squads – 3 Plasma, Medic, and Powerfist in each, mounted in Chimeras. An Astropath and a Master of the Fleet.
Elite Daemonhunter Inquisitor - Terminator Armor, Psycannon, Force Weapon, and retinue (Mystics, Hierophant, Sage).
Psyker Battle Squad – in a Chimera
Infantry Platoon – 3 Squads in Chimeras with Heavy Weapons, Command with 4 Flamers in a Chimera
2 Special Weapons Squads – Flamers and Demo Charge, Meltaguns and Flamers
Veteran Squads – Meltaguns and shotguns in a Chimera. Meltaguns, Shotguns, and Demolitions.
2 Valkyries – Multiple Rocket Pods.
2 Medusas
2 Hydras
Manticore

Gavo wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:Looks ok, I think I know what it is, bout could you explane "Leaf Blower"

Pretty much AV12 spam from hell. A guy won 'Ard Boyz last year, his list looked like this:

"The Leafblower" List - 2500 pts

2 Company Command Squads – 3 Plasma, Medic, and Powerfist in each, mounted in Chimeras. An Astropath and a Master of the Fleet.
Elite Daemonhunter Inquisitor - Terminator Armor, Psycannon, Force Weapon, and retinue (Mystics, Hierophant, Sage).
Psyker Battle Squad – in a Chimera
Infantry Platoon – 3 Squads in Chimeras with Heavy Weapons, Command with 4 Flamers in a Chimera
2 Special Weapons Squads – Flamers and Demo Charge, Meltaguns and Flamers
Veteran Squads – Meltaguns and shotguns in a Chimera. Meltaguns, Shotguns, and Demolitions.
2 Valkyries – Multiple Rocket Pods.
2 Medusas
2 Hydras
Manticore

Where does the actual term "leaf blower" come from?

one of his opponents is quoted to have said "he blew my army off the board like a leaf blower". None of his 2500 pt. games lasted over a single hour.

I mean, that said, there's nothing really peculiar about this. It's just an artillery-heavy mech guard list. The only thing that makes it different than any other mech guard list is the inquisitor.

This is a solid list, but what allowed him to horribly sweep his opponents off the table probably had much more to do with how things developed on the tabletop itself (as in, he was a good player), more than his list being the ultra-cheese.

As for how to beat it, his list clearly relies on heavy firepower with some added mobility to handle the rest. If you can gut this list's firepower (say through well-placed meltagun deepstriking, or use of lots of outflankers), there's really not a whole lot else that this list has to offer, other than hoping to drive a specialized unit to where it needs to be at the last moment.

He was lucky enough to get first turn every game. This undoubtedly helped him immensely, not that the list is bad, but his odds of winning are greatly diminished if he does not go first.

In terms of fighting fire with fire, I've recently been exploring re-integrating Heavy Weapons into my Chaos Space Marine squads.

I've noticed that while Autocannon-armed Havocs provide some brutal anti-transport fire, there aren't really enough of them. I've also noticed that having two or more squads of Chaos Space Marines armed with one Melta Gun and one Flamethrower provides some serious redundancy, and better than having one squad with two Melta Guns and one squad with two Flamethrowers.

So here's the idea:

HQ
Chaos Lord
w/Mark of Tzeentch, Pair of Lightening Claws, Melta Bombs
135

Elites
Chosen Chaos Space Marines (5)
w/Three Flamers, two Melta Guns, Icon of Chaos Glory
Rhino

Chosen Chaos Space Marines (5)
w/Three Flamers, two Melta Guns, Icon of Chaos Glory
Rhino

Troops
Chaos Space Marine Battle Squad (10)
w/Eight Bolters, one Melta Gun, one Autocannon, Icon of Chaos Glory
Chaos Rhino
w/Havoc Launcher

Chaos Space Marine Battle Squad (10)
w/Eight Bolters, one Melta Gun, one Autocannon, Icon of Chaos Glory
Chaos Rhino
w/Havoc Launcher

Chaos Space Marine Battle Squad (10)
w/Eight Bolters, one Melta Gun, one Autocannon, Icon of Chaos Glory
Chaos Rhino
w/Havoc Launcher

Chaos Space Marine Battle Squad (10)
w/Eight Bolters, one Melta Gun, one Autocannon, Icon of Chaos Glory
Chaos Rhino
w/Havoc Launcher

Chaos Space Marine Battle Squad (10)
w/Eight Bolters, one Melta Gun, one Autocannon, Icon of Chaos Glory
Chaos Rhino
w/Havoc Launcher

Chaos Space Marine Battle Squad (10)
w/Eight Bolters, one Melta Gun, one Autocannon, Icon of Chaos Glory
Chaos Rhino
w/Havoc Launcher

Heavy Support
Chaos Space Marine Havoc Squad (9)
w/Five Bolters, two Melta Guns, two Autocannons, Icon of Chaos Glory
Chaos Rhino
w/Havoc Launcher

Chaos Predator
w/Twin-Linked Lascannon (turret), Lascannons (sponsons), Daemonic Possession

Chaos Predator
w/Twin-Linked Lascannon (turret), Lascannons (sponsons), Daemonic Possession

It doesn't look good. How many points is that? 2K? Basically what you're doing is bringing eight AV11 vehicles and two AV13 vehicles against fifteen/sixteen AV12 vehicles. Not only is your enemy more resilient than you they also bring a lot more guns. Fighting fire with fire isn't the way to go in this case. You got absolutely masses of Marines with bolters in there but I'm unsure what they're going to achieve against mech IG. For the record, I think that the Leafblower name was attached to a pretty weak IG list. That list posted in this thread is nowhere even near optimised.

Therion wrote:You got absolutely masses of Marines with bolters in there but I'm unsure what they're going to achieve against mech IG.

I feel that your rank and file Chaos Marine is one of the better options out there simply because he can effectively deal with a wall of Chimeras thanks to multi-assaults and Krak Grenades.

Honestly a marine spam list really performs well. Marine squads with meltaguns, havoc squads with meltaguns, chosen squads with meltaguns, and 2x daemon princes.

2x lash princes = 155 each

6 squads of 10 guys, 2 meltaguns in rhinos with combi-meltaguns = 215 each

3 squads of chosen with 5 meltaguns, in rhinos with combi-meltaguns = 185 each

2 squads of havocs with 4 meltaguns, in rhinos with combi-meltaguns = 160 each

2475 points. That's 11 rhinos charging forward. I recommend deploying them all, as putting chosen in reserves leaves you at the mercy of your [delayed] reserve rolls, and you might not end up on the table edge you want. There's also 85 marines charging across the field. Once you get close, between meltaguns and krak grenades, you should storm the lines pretty well. Don't hide the princes either - throw them forward and if you want, rather than use lash, run to get closer and make yourself more of a threat.

This list also has the extra points to make both lash princes into warp time princes instead, bringing it to 2485. This makes them into a threat for the valkyries, which they can head straight for. If your rhinos make it [which they should], then you've also got anti-tank weapons on the rhinos, plus most of the side armour of those tanks in the leafblower is AV 10, meaning even their bolters have a chance of causing damage.

Main idea: FORWARD!!! Don't stop until you're in his face. If anything hangs back, that's one less thing he has to shoot.

as well, as the BOLS article on this guy notes, this list has a very strong alpha strike. This list gets to pick a few targets and absolutely obliterate them straight away. Thus the whole going first every game being of crucial importance.

As such, you could do well with a variety of lists so long as you deny this forceful alpha strike. Deploying everything and pinning your hopes on an all-out charge probably isn't the best option, while leaving things in reserve to deploy in your deployment zone or hanging back and trying to outshoot them is plainly suicidal.

Either you need to have so many targets that his huge artillery crushing can't possibly handle it all (although CSM isn't exactly a horde list), or you need to be able to neutralize his artillery before you put juicy targets on the field. This means bringing more deepstrikers than the inquisitor et. al. is able to kill in a single turn, or doing some serious outflanking.

If you can take out the high-firepower units before they do too much damage, the rest of the list is basically a handful of heavy flamer vehicles toting around dudes with small arms, which should go down without too much of a fight.

As well, this kind of a list is designed to be good against all target types. If you overload a single target type, he's going to have problems. For example, the leafblower list has some anti-marine, but I doubt it would be able to handle lots and lots and lots of marines. I mean, the guard have been using this trick for years (bringing only infantry and making their anti-tank weapons moot, or bringing almost always vehicles and making their heavy bolters and flamers useless), and while it's more challenging with non-specialized armies, it can still be done.

Pretty much the only thing you don't want to do is copy him, because he is going to have way more, way better stuff than you. To think a CSM army can outshoot a guard artillery army is insanity.

I wonder how a Drop Pod or Deathwing would work if you goe second?

Therion wrote:For the record, I think that the Leafblower name was attached to a pretty weak IG list. That list posted in this thread is nowhere even near optimised.

Um...he won 'Ard Boyz with it... and he tabled all his opponents within an hour. I would go to say that it's a pretty damn solid list.

Does anyone have the actual leafblower list? I remember looking at it and being underwhelmed - what in that list is really supposed to obliterate the enemy? Some S6 multilasers, lots of close-range melta, a couple medusas?

what it probably was was that it has a bunch of units which are very good at special targets. His opponents likely relied on just one or two things which were horribly destroyed by the plethora of specialized units. I wouldn't be surprised if it's because a lot of his opponents conceded.

I mean, I could see an opponent losing the few key units that they needed to get their tactic to work vaporising to a strong, specialized alpha strike turn 1 and they just gave up within a couple of turns. This isn't some sort of uber list, but it covers all the bases in the specialized way that only the guard can. In very capable hands, I can easily see how it would clear out a lot of rifraff. Not the most optimized, but it's specialized while still being able to take on all target types. Formidable to be certain, but definitely not unbeatable.

I mean, it's designed to give a really good player the flexibility to absolutely ruin someone else's plan. With worse luck, or in the hands of a worse player, it's just another mech guard list.

Spellbound wrote:Does anyone have the actual leafblower list? I remember looking at it and being underwhelmed - what in that list is really supposed to obliterate the enemy? Some S6 multilasers, lots of close-range melta, a couple medusas?

It's a bit higher up in the thread, I posted it.

Um...he won 'Ard Boyz with it... and he tabled all his opponents within an hour. I would go to say that it's a pretty damn solid list.

I wouldn't go as far as calling it pretty damn solid. It's allright I guess, but as many have noted he apparently got first turn every game and didn't face that challenging opposition either. If you can't see how his list could be improved I have nothing more to tell you since I doubt it's mine or anyone else's job to 'fill you in' on the optimised list so that you can copy it and claim it as your own.

Spellbound wrote: Does anyone have the actual leafblower list? I remember looking at it and being underwhelmed - what in that list is really supposed to obliterate the enemy? Some S6 multilasers, lots of close-range melta, a couple medusas?

It's a mech IG list.

As well, this kind of a list is designed to be good against all target types. If you overload a single target type, he's going to have problems.

Two things. Firstly, it's not as clear cut as you say that 'overloading on Marines' would even beat him. Sure he's going to have a relatively tough time killing all your infantry, but you still have a tough time killing him too as there's a bunch of weaknesses in the CSM spam list posted here and all of the Rhinos and Predators will be wrecked in short order leaving only the hordes of footslogging bolters. Secondly unless we're talking from a purely theoretical pepsi challenge point of view we have to assume that the CSM army has to be able to beat all of the tournament opposition and not just mech IG. In a swiss system an all-around weak counter-one-army type list will never even be paired against the dominant army it's trying to counter unless they meet in the first round, since the counter list will lose with much more certainty against everyone else and in any case will have a hard time getting a high overall placement. Now, if we're talking about a special type of tournament like the ETC where one team selects an army and the other team offers two armies they are willing to pair against it and then the other team chooses one of those two, then we should start discussing various types of lists that can neutralise other lists, play for draws and nothing else, etc.

Interesting there isn't any LRusses. I guess the other units in the codex are better at specific jobs.

I will soon be publishing a tactical article on my blog that specifically deals with using CSM to beat IG Mech. Hopefully I'll have it posted by this evening. It includes tactics for going either 1st or 2nd. Keep an eye out for it.

G

Therion:

Regarding "footslogging bolters" I take it you didn't notice that the six Chaos Space Marine squads each have an Autocannon? And a Melta gun? Combined with the two Autocannons in the Havoc squad the army has the equivalent of two squads of Havocs with four Autocannons, the potential to deliver them to seven separate targets, and then has two Daemonically Possessed Predators to boot.

The Chosen are armed entirely with Meltas and Flamers. They outflank. Heck, the entire army can be held in reserve, move 12" onto the table and blow smoke. The Medusas have been conveniently wedded together in a squadron, making them considerably more vulnerable since Immobilized results will automatically convert to Destroyed (Wrecked).

The army's infantry carry the majority of its armour cracking weapons, with the tanks looking like big scary fire magnets (and Daemonic Possession to make them a continuous threat requiring destruction), and the Rhinos carrying Havoc Launchers to sweep up the infantry that the infantry won't be able to wipe out in combat.

By no means a sure win, and writing army lists to counter known army lists is shooting fish in a barrel, but I'd suggest that such a list would do well against all comers simply because it has both tactical and strategic flexibility on its side.

Byte wrote:Interesting there isn't any LRusses. I guess the other units in the codex are better at specific jobs.

There is one thing Russes are better at: hitting deepstrikers in combination with an Inquisitor with Mystics. That's because their turret mounted weapons can turn to fire whereas most other heavy hitters in the Guard codex can't (except the Manticore but it can only fire one rocket per turn.) 3 pie plates can ruin any deepstrikers day.

But that's about the only thing I can think of that Russes are better at. Vendettas are better against 2+ saves and medium armor than even the Paskecutioner, and Manticores are better against hordes and heavy armour. Stock Russes might be better against MEQ but most Guard armies will get enough anti-MEQ in the course of their other purchases that they don't need specialized anti-MEQ.

Ludovic wrote:

Byte wrote:Interesting there isn't any LRusses. I guess the other units in the codex are better at specific jobs.

There is one thing Russes are better at: hitting deepstrikers in combination with an Inquisitor with Mystics. That's because their turret mounted weapons can turn to fire whereas most other heavy hitters in the Guard codex can't (except the Manticore but it can only fire one rocket per turn.) 3 pie plates can ruin any deepstrikers day.

But that's about the only thing I can think of that Russes are better at. Vendettas are better against 2+ saves and medium armor than even the Paskecutioner, and Manticores are better against hordes and heavy armour. Stock Russes might be better against MEQ but most Guard armies will get enough anti-MEQ in the course of their other purchases that they don't need specialized anti-MEQ.

the problem with hitting deepstrikers with Russes is the scatter problem.
i like Hydras or Vendettas for that role. depending of coarse what's DSing that is.

BTW: When I fist saw IG Leaf Blower List I thought is was one with so many models that it would be easer to use as leaf blower mto move them across the table and though "I have an list like that."

I thought it was a list that relied on huge lines of tanks with heavy flamers, that would tank shock the enemies into piles and flame them like a line leaf blowers.

its a very good army, and hats off to darkwynn for winning ard boyz with it. He got first turn though against 2 trukk spam ork armies and another guard list.