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Quick question that I just wanted to confirm:

I picked up some Khorne Berzerkers that were already assembled off of ebay. Several of them are modeled with a chain sword and a power fist. One guy is modeled with two bolt pistols.

I seem to recall the rule being that things included in a units profile (in this case by default a bolt pistol and a close combat weapon) do not need to be modeled for WYSIWYG, and wanted to verify this before I start painting.

Thanks,
MD

morgendonner wrote:Quick question that I just wanted to confirm:

I picked up some Khorne Berzerkers that were already assembled off of ebay. Several of them are modeled with a chain sword and a power fist. One guy is modeled with two bolt pistols.

I seem to recall the rule being that things included in a units profile (in this case by default a bolt pistol and a close combat weapon) do not need to be modeled for WYSIWYG, and wanted to verify this before I start painting.

Thanks,
MD

There is no such "rule". That is just how some people play it. 2 Bolt Pistols is certainly not a legal selection of Wargear.

I'm sure Gwar! also meant to add that the printed WYSIWYG rules have changed from 4th edition to 5th edition, and are much less specific than they used to be.

I think they're planning on sentencing people who want to argue RaW about WYSIWYG to moderating the Tournament and Off-Topic forums.

WYSIWYG has never been a strictly RAW issue. The general convention is that models should represent their profile. So what their profile says they are armed with should be shown on the model, and what is on the model should be in the profile.

How closely it is adhered to is up to individual players. It's very common for players to ignore grenades for the purposes of WYSIWYG. It's also not uncommon for models within units to 'share' wargear, or have to occasional mismatched item in there so long as it doesn't cause too much confusion (models that should have a pistol and CCW having two pistols or two CCW's, for example).

At the end of the day, what it comes down to is: Is the unit as modelled likely to confuse your opponent as to what they are armed with?

If so, then it fails the WYSIWYG test.

I'm certainly not saying I plan to have that model shoot an extra bolt pistol shot. I don't think there is a problem with saying the other bolt pistol is his close combat weapon though (empty clip perhaps).

Regardless of fluff justifications, I just wanted to get a feel then of other players. The berzerkers I made myself that I've owned for years all have one pistol and one ccw.

I like the rule of thumb insaniak mentioned. But I need outside opinions on the answer to that. Would it be confusing to you to have your opponent using berzerkers who seem to be modeled with a chainsword in one hand and a powerfist for the other?

morgendonner wrote:I'm certainly not saying I plan to have that model shoot an extra bolt pistol shot. I don't think there is a problem with saying the other bolt pistol is his close combat weapon though (empty clip perhaps).

Regardless of fluff justifications, I just wanted to get a feel then of other players. The berzerkers I made myself that I've owned for years all have one pistol and one ccw.

I like the rule of thumb insaniak mentioned. But I need outside opinions on the answer to that. Would it be confusing to you to have your opponent using berzerkers who seem to be modeled with a chainsword in one hand and a powerfist for the other?

As long as he tells me before the game what exceptions there are to WYSIWYG in his models, then I'm fine with it. Memory isn't my strong point, but for little things like that I can do fine. A friend of mine converted a grot to have the squighound on its base instead of on the runtherd's, but there was never any confusion about it.

Just be up front about what equipment the unit has before a game and I think most people don't care. I've got some modded assault marines; one with two bolt pistols that's posed like he's doing some action movie shooting, another with two chainswords glued together to look like darth maul. If they care so much, don't play 'em.
The caveat here is that I never play tournaments and just play for fun with like minded people so it's never been a problem for me.

That said, if you're a tournament player you'll probably want to be as WYSIWYG as possible.

Like others have said be honest about equipement up front but be careful many Tournaments will be stricter on WYSIWTG. However by RaW that rule does only apply to opionts and debatably only to options on Characters.

I can't see anyone having a porblem with 2 pistols counting as a pistol and CCW.

morgendonner wrote: Would it be confusing to you to have your opponent using berzerkers who seem to be modeled with a chainsword in one hand and a powerfist for the other?

If you were to say that every powerfist in the army counts as a power weapon / chainaxe / whatever so that consistency is maintained, nope, not a problem.

It's when you start having these powerfists actually being powerfists but those powerfists counting as something else (or being ignored) that you start running into problems, as your opponent has to remember which is which.

As mentioned before, consistency is the key.


On the pistol thing, having two of the same pistol on the model is fine, since models can only fire one weapon anyway, so two of the same pistol works out exactly the same, ruleswise, as having a pistol and close combat weapon. Having two different pistols (say a bolt pistol and plasma pistol on a model that only actually has one of them) would be potentially confusing, as your opponent has to remember which one the model actually has.

Very good point again insaniak.

Not that I've had this issue before since my other berzerkers all have one pistol one ccw. BUT, typically if I always use a model that looks a lot different for champions.

For instance I have one chosen I have with a pistol in one hand and a crazy mutant chainsword arm that I envision to be a power fist stats wise. Also with this bundle I got a really old school khorne berzerker that really sticks out, I'd use him in a similar fashion.

While we're on the topic: what about guys that have plasma pistols - do you have a problem with somebody saying their just bolt pistols (assuming that is the case for any guy with one)?

I'd be fine with that just to reduce the massive piles of worthless plasma pistols any marine player has.

The main problem with not modelling gear strictly onto your figures is when you do include at least one special weapon in the army.

People will not be happy if only one squad has a plasma pistol, but its not obvious looking at the models which one has the upgrade. Trying to remember that the purple squad has a special weapon but the red and yellow ones do not... thats not going to go down well in a tournement.

However, if you have a couple models with strange looking pistols, but all of your units are entirely equipped with regular pistols...thats not likely going to cause a problem. Especially if the bizarre pistols are all carried by sergeants (or your army's equivalent). If your army has no one listed with a plasma pistol, then your opponent isnt going to worry too much about the exact looks of the models' weapons.


If a model is supposed to have a special weapon, its always a good idea to have that clearly on the model. That tends to be the key, anything thats an upgrade needs to be clear, easy to see, and not possible to mistake with anyhting else in your army.

If you have no special weapons in your army, then your opponent isnt likely to have problems with a few strange looking pistols.



Sliggoth

The way i play it, which is the way everyone i have played against plays it. Is that if it is listed war gear in the unit entry then it does not need to be modeled. For instance My plague marines come with Bolter, pistol, and CCW but some are modeled with just a bolter or pistol and ccw. The only thing that does mater is that upgrades are shown on the model like power fists and melta guns.

It doesn't matter what people think online, it matters what the people you are likely to face think.

It's best before each and every game to run through any WYSIWYG grey areas with your opponent before the game. "All the plasma pistols are just bolt pistols cos plasma pistols look cool but spending the points is troublesome. This huge daemon claw is a powerfist, but all the powerfist guys just have CC and BP." would be a nice way to start and depending on the friendliness of the player would probably work fine.

On the other hand, some (most even) tournaments are VERY serious about WYSIWYG so having powerfists and plasma pistols on models that you don't pay the points for is likely you to get you disqualified.

Finally, with that said, even tournaments and the less friendly players have an understanding of a "counts as" rule inherent to the models hobby that allows players to make and use cool looking models while not having to use terribly balanced rules to represent them.

Really, you can use a chess pawn or a AoB marine to represent your stock standard Space Marine, but you will obviously have an easier time playing games using the latter than the former