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Hey folks.

I'm looking at using a Deff Dread for a list; I've not used one before. I'm having an argument with a friend about how many attacks it has and was hoping for some rules...quotes.

The Statline for a Deffdread has 3 attacks as a base. In its wargear, it says that it is equipped with two close combat weapons, and that each additional close combat weapon adds +1 to its attacks. If I equip it with a single additional close combat weapon, I see this: 3 base attacks, +1 for having 2 CCWs, +1 for having an extra CCW for a total of 5 attacks.

My friend says that the close combat weapons are already included in the dread's profile, to which I said, "Where do you get that from? Other models (like space marines with a bolt pistol and chainsword) have 2CCWs and aren't included in their profile."

The only other army I play has specific codex entries for it. Like a statline for attacks that is 2(3) and in the wargear it says, "......extra attack for being armed with an additional close combat weapon is included in his profile above."

Orks don't say that stuff. Ork boyz come standard with a slugga and choppa with a statline of 2 attacks. They have 4 attacks on the charge, from having 2 base, 2CCWs and +1 on the charge. Why am I supposed to presume that dreads are an exception to the rule here?

Q. How many Attacks does a Deff Dread armed
with three or four close combat weapons have?
A. A Deff Dread with three close combat weapons
had 4 Attacks, whilst a Deff Dread with four of
them has 5 Attacks.

Ork faq

I am under instruction not to rubbish the GW FAQ or call it wrong, so I shall not.

However, from a RaW perspective, the GW FAQ does appear to be incorrect, as the Deff Dread will have 5 attacks with 3 DCCW and 6 with 4 DCCW. GW have decided to rule against this however. Make of this what you will.

To sumarise the strict RaW:
No DCCW: 3 Attacks at Base Strength
1 DCCW: 3 Attacks at Double Strength
2 DCCW: 4 Attacks at Double Strength
3 DCCW: 5 Attacks at Double Strength
4 DCCW: 6 Attacks at Double Strength

However, as already pointed out, the GW FAQ seems to suggest the bonus attack is already included in the profile.

Gwar! wrote:However, as already pointed out, the GW FAQ seems to suggest the bonus attack is already included in the profile.

Wouldn't it make a note then that the bonus was included in the profile. I think EVERY OTHER codex dose that. This ork codex continues to have issues...

I would agree that the FAQ (no matter how official) seems to disregard the rules for DCCW as stated on page 73 of the brb. The first weapon according to the rules doubles the strength, and each additional weapon adds +1 Attack. The first weapon does not say it confers an extra attack therefore the statline for the dreadnought would be the base attacks (with or without the first DCCW).

@Happygrunt

But like I pointed out to Dash in our conversation. Every other codex can replace that extra arm it comes with with something that would take away that attack. Hence why the distinction like 2(3). Or like the Soul Grinder where they are included in the profile w/no extra signature since they can't be removed. Since you can't remove the DCCW arm from the Deff Dread they simply included it in the profile.

Makes sense and follows the prescedent set by other codexes in regards to dreadnoughts.

But it doesn't.

Removing the DCCW from a chaos dread does not reduce the number of attacks it has - the 2(3) notation has no actual meaning.

It does say right there in the Ork Codex that "each additional dreadnought close combat weapon adds +1 to the Dread's Attacks." Now, I would say that that would leave a fully melee Deff Dread with 6 attacks (7 assaulting), but when a licensed GW product says otherwise, best to simply take their word for it. Unless you're gonna say that the FAQ means that the Deff Dread has X attacks, and then add one for multiple close-combat weapons (you could possibly pull this off, if you don't mind looking like a bit of a jerk).

My advice: figure out what you're going to do with your friends, and ask your organizer at tournaments.

MekanobSamael wrote:It does say right there in the Ork Codex that "each additional dreadnought close combat weapon adds +1 to the Dread's Attacks."

It actually says that it comes with two, and then in a separate statement says that each additional CCW adds an attack.

Taking the codex on its own, I would take that to mean that the two it comes with are representing the attacks in its profile, with each additional CCW adding +1 attack... because that's what it says.

What this overlooks is that the rulebook grants walkers an additional attack for each DCCW above the first. So without the FAQ, the Dread would gain +1 just for having 2 DCCW's, and then a further +1 for each additional DCCW (which it wouldn't get without that rule since the rules only allow you the +1 once ordinarily).

As others have mentioned, the FAQ would seem to count the two DCCW's that the dread comes with as being included in its profile. Yes, ordinarily the codex would say so where this is the case... but that's hardly the first error made in the Ork codex.

What it boils down to is not that the FAQ is 'wrong'... but simply that the FAQ changes the rules where the Ork Dreadnought is concerned. Again, not an unheard of occurence, where GW FAQs are concerned.

insaniak wrote:
What this overlooks is that the rulebook grants walkers an additional attack for each DCCW above the first. So without the FAQ, the Dread would gain +1 just for having 2 DCCW's, and then a further +1 for each additional DCCW (which it wouldn't get without that rule since the rules only allow you the +1 once ordinarily).

The rules allow the +1 more than once ordinarily.

P73
If a walker is armed with two or more close
combat weapons, it gains one bonus attack for
each additional weapon over the first.

Yeah, I was thinking of the regular Infantry rules for extra CCW's.

insaniak wrote:

MekanobSamael wrote:It does say right there in the Ork Codex that "each additional dreadnought close combat weapon adds +1 to the Dread's Attacks."

It actually says that it comes with two, and then in a separate statement says that each additional CCW adds an attack.

Taking the codex on its own, I would take that to mean that the two it comes with are representing the attacks in its profile, with each additional CCW adding +1 attack... because that's what it says.

What this overlooks is that the rulebook grants walkers an additional attack for each DCCW above the first. So without the FAQ, the Dread would gain +1 just for having 2 DCCW's, and then a further +1 for each additional DCCW (which it wouldn't get without that rule since the rules only allow you the +1 once ordinarily).

As others have mentioned, the FAQ would seem to count the two DCCW's that the dread comes with as being included in its profile. Yes, ordinarily the codex would say so where this is the case... but that's hardly the first error made in the Ork codex.

What it boils down to is not that the FAQ is 'wrong'... but simply that the FAQ changes the rules where the Ork Dreadnought is concerned. Again, not an unheard of occurence, where GW FAQs are concerned.

Exactly. The words in the codex aren't completely clear but it says that the Deffdread starts with 3 and you can't get rid of one of the DCCWs. Since the codex says that "each ADDITIONAL DCCW adds one attack" you do exactly that. Add an additional attack for each DCCW that you put on it. So, since it already starts with 2 DCCW, so for 3 Close Combat Weapons you would add one attack If you got 4 CCW you would add 2 attacks.

Another example of this is the Space Marine Codex under the Iron Clad entry. Under attacks it states 2(3). That is because it normally comes with 2, however because of the second DCCW it has three, but you CAN get rid of one of the DCCWs for a hurricane bolter.

It is a little confusing, however the FAQ clears this up.

Yes, I said essentially the same thing, but I am bored and I like to type.

So I would also take that to mean that nothing happens when you destroy one of the base CCWs

I would go with that. At first I thought that a destroyed weapon would decrease the attacks by one, but I can't find it. So. Yeah. Unless there is something in there that if you destroy a base DCCW you lose an attack.

Gwar! wrote:I am under instruction not to rubbish the GW FAQ or call it wrong, so I shall not.

However, from a RaW perspective, the GW FAQ does appear to be incorrect, as the Deff Dread will have 5 attacks with 3 DCCW and 6 with 4 DCCW. GW have decided to rule against this however. Make of this what you will.

To sumarise the strict RaW:
No DCCW: 3 Attacks at Base Strength
1 DCCW: 3 Attacks at Double Strength
2 DCCW: 4 Attacks at Double Strength
3 DCCW: 5 Attacks at Double Strength
4 DCCW: 6 Attacks at Double Strength

However, as already pointed out, the GW FAQ seems to suggest the bonus attack is already included in the profile.

in this case, gw is also going against their own precedent. usually they say "bonus attack included in profile above" like with the defiler but that doesn't seem to be the case this time. i'd follow the FAQ since that is what most gamers and tournies will do, so go with 3 attacks for 2 CCWs. if you get a weapon destroyed you'll unfortunately go down to 2 if they chose a DCCW.

p.s. is rubbish a verb across the pond? here it just means garbage (noun). interesting... you crazy brits with your superfluous vowels, strange terms for cigarettes, and verbs made from nouns!

warboss wrote:

Gwar! wrote:I am under instruction not to rubbish the GW FAQ or call it wrong, so I shall not.

However, from a RaW perspective, the GW FAQ does appear to be incorrect, as the Deff Dread will have 5 attacks with 3 DCCW and 6 with 4 DCCW. GW have decided to rule against this however. Make of this what you will.

To sumarise the strict RaW:
No DCCW: 3 Attacks at Base Strength
1 DCCW: 3 Attacks at Double Strength
2 DCCW: 4 Attacks at Double Strength
3 DCCW: 5 Attacks at Double Strength
4 DCCW: 6 Attacks at Double Strength

However, as already pointed out, the GW FAQ seems to suggest the bonus attack is already included in the profile.

in this case, gw is also going against their own precedent. usually they say "bonus attack included in profile above" like with the defiler but that doesn't seem to be the case this time. i'd follow the FAQ since that is what most gamers and tournies will do, so go with 3 attacks for 2 CCWs. if you get a weapon destroyed you'll unfortunately go down to 2 if they chose a DCCW.

p.s. is rubbish a verb across the pond? here it just means garbage (noun). interesting... you crazy brits with your superfluous vowels, strange terms for cigarettes, and verbs made from nouns!

Yup, it goes completely against both GW Precedent and, well, the rules, but that's the breaks. However, I am seeing some people argue that it is 3 even with only 1 DCCW :(

And yes, over here "to rubbish" means to make something out to be worthless or not of good quality.
And I'll have you know we invented the damn thing so you can just start copying us TYVM!

Gwar! wrote:Yup, it goes completely against both GW Precedent and, well, the rules, but that's the breaks. However, I am seeing some people argue that it is 3 even with only 1 DCCW :(

Like I said, I could have sworn that there was a statement somewhere that if you lose a DCCW you lose an attack. But I can't find it. Also, aren'tthe official FAQs just clarifications and corrections of rules?

The stated intention of the FAQs is to clarify. Corrections are (theoretically) left to the Errata section of the document.

But they have a long history of sneaking rules changes into the FAQs. You get used to it after a while.

It's not clear how many attacks a Deff Dread has. The FAQ implies that the bonus for starting with 2 DCCWs is included in the attack profile, but there's not language in the entry that 1) states it is or 2) states that you lose an attack if one of them is destroyed. I wouldn't be shocked if the GW FAQ was in error, but since it's the only official reference, I would stick to it.

The chief difficulty arises from the fact that when it says "each additional DCCW adds +1 to the Dread's attacks," it doesn't clarify whether or not it means "each additional beyond the first" or "each additional beyond those listed." The problem is semantic.

headrattle wrote:Like I said, I could have sworn that there was a statement somewhere that if you lose a DCCW you lose an attack. But I can't find it.

Yes, that's correct, p. 73 of the BRB. The question is whether or not the third attack included in the Deff Dread's profile is one of the "bonus attacks" listed in the main rules. Extrapolating form the FAQ, losing the second DCCW would drop the Deff Dread's attacks to 2 since it is an "additional weapon," but then you go back to the semantic problem above and you haven't really solved anything.

The entry does say that "each additional dccw adds +1 attack" perhaps in this case, take it to read as "in addition to what it has by default".
So if the dred has 2 dccw's by default, it's attacks are already accounting for the pair. Then you read the entry saying "each additional" and buy 2 more dccw for the dred, giving it 2 more attacks.

The entry also doesn't say that "if you lose a dccw, you lose one of the additional attacks granted by it" it says that you lose an attack.

So a dred with 2 dccw having it's base attacks; loses a dccw arm- loses 1 attack. It doesn't take away the additional attack granted by the second dccw, its just an attack.
Likewise, with 3 dccw; loses 1 arm- loses 1 attack from any source. It just loses the attack... It never specifies where it is losing that attack from.



I think that the GW FAQ is just clarifying a typo, not clarifying a rules issue.

MekanobSamael wrote:The chief difficulty arises from the fact that when it says "each additional DCCW adds +1 to the Dread's attacks," it doesn't clarify whether or not it means "each additional beyond the first" or "each additional beyond those listed." The problem is semantic.

The way the entry is written, it means that it comes with 2, and you get +1 attack for each additional one that you add.

That's exactly the way I've looked at it. Replace the CCWs with, say, arms. Where having two arms is the norm, a person with two arms doesn't have one arm and an extra. The guy at the back of the bar with a beer in each of his three hands, now he's got an extra!

Gwar! wrote:I am under instruction not to rubbish the GW FAQ or call it wrong, so I shall not.

However, from a RaW perspective, the GW FAQ does appear to be incorrect, as the Deff Dread will have 5 attacks with 3 DCCW and 6 with 4 DCCW. GW have decided to rule against this however. Make of this what you will.

To sumarise the strict RaW:
No DCCW: 3 Attacks at Base Strength
1 DCCW: 3 Attacks at Double Strength
2 DCCW: 4 Attacks at Double Strength
3 DCCW: 5 Attacks at Double Strength
4 DCCW: 6 Attacks at Double Strength

However, as already pointed out, the GW FAQ seems to suggest the bonus attack is already included in the profile.

situation 1 and 2 are impossible due to the fact that you HAVE to have at least TWO ccw and can add extra ones instead of guns.

ncaa_40k wrote:
situation 1 and 2 are impossible due to the fact that you HAVE to have at least TWO ccw and can add extra ones instead of guns.

Weapon destroyed results are impossible?