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A space marine would outrank a private, corpral even sargent. But what about the other ranks like commisars how far would the difference in ranks go? Would a cannoness be higher than a chaplan? Let us debate...

The armed forces have tables of rank which define the equivalent level of the ranks in the different organisations.

This would show that a Cannoness was the equivalent of a Chapter Master.

The different organisations aren't in the same line of command, though, so they can't go around giving each other orders willy-nilly.

For example, when a general in the army is on board a sloop he can't give orders to the captain just because the captain is only a lieutenant-commander.

It is also impossible for higher ranking officers to give orders to lower ranks if they are not recognised. If a general approaches a private on guard duty, the private will not let the general pass until he has been correctly identified.

Usually the highest ranking member of an imperial organization is in charge of all the members of said organization.

IT depends at the local chain of command, who outranks whom.

A planetary governor may order the Local superior of the arbites but still has to ask nicely
to have his wishes if adressing the IG/astartes/ecclesiarchy/mechanicum.

It is also impossible for higher ranking officers to give orders to lower ranks if they are not recognised. If a general approaches a private on guard duty, the private will not let the general pass until he has been correctly identified.

I doubt that a Gardsman would ask a space marine if he's a space marine...

1hadhq wrote:
A planetary governor may order the Local superior of the arbites but still has to ask nicely
to have his wishes if adressing the IG/astartes/ecclesiarchy/mechanicum.

40k background is full of Imperial forces butting heads. IG tends to have a unified command, mechanicus forces do their own thing, but to a lesser extent.

Space Marines are unwilling to follow orders from pretty much anyone but another Space Marine of their own Chapter. Soul Drinker had a good example of this when the commander of the Imperial forces leaked some info to the Space Marines to get them to do his dirty work, as he couldn't command them or even make a request with a decent chance of getting their help.

I think the Inquisition is the only force that would command anything near total obedience.

True, but the Inquistion has has almost if not more power than the emperor.

But could creed order a space marine around?

If 40k is anything like the real world (just putting that first), then we could look at these different "forces" as different branches of the current military (most countries have a similar system to the US, so I'll use that).

An Army General (of the four star kind) can not technically command a Marine Private what to do if the Marine Private is not in the General's Chain of Command (though it would behoove the Private to do so anyhow, but technically they would be within their duty to deny such an order). Likewise, a Marine Commandant could not order an Air Force Airman if they are not in the same chain of command. However, at times, a Marine Corps Lt. Col. might be put under the command of a "subordinate" Army rank (such as a Major or even a Captain) if that is what the Powers that Be decide.

There are even exceptions. For example, whomever is the current pilot of an aircraft has absolute command of the entire craft, and may command anyone on board. So if a Brigadier General is aboard a plane piloted by a 2LT, then that General must follow the Lt.'s orders (though the Lt. will usually be polite about it).

So, if a Marine is put under the command of an Imperial Guard squad, headed by a Sergeant, then even if that Marine is a Captain, they would have to follow that Sergeant's orders. While I would not consider that common, that is what COULD happen if current military structure is templated onto 40k.

Else-wise, I would simply follow the chain of command from the top down and the bottom up to make extrapolations. Of course, some considerations would have to be made, as a Space Marine Scout is most likely of technically "higher" rank than an IG conscript.

I agree with most of what is being said here about chain of command, but I do think there is another important aspect to this: personal authority vs delegated authority.

The inquisition technically has authority over space marines, but the fluff indicates they have to be careful about excersizing it. They have unlimited delegated authority, but not unlimited personal authority. Likewise, some chapter masters seem to be able to command planetary governors and IG regimens.

It is doubtful that a SM chapter master would see a cannoness as a peer, or that a cannoness would see an IG general as a peer, despite their technically equivalent ranks. And a leader of an ad-mech army likely does not see ANYONE as a peer, including inquisitors.

Finally, there are numerous occasions of commissars acting above their authority with impunity, Ciaphas Cain (HERO OF THE IMPERIUM) being a prime example.

The Imperium and their military are not nearly as secular as we are. Between their hero worship, religious fanaticism, and splintered command structure actual ranks can end up being rather secondary characteristics to who ends up being in charge. A popular face often outranks a general in the imperium.

Starts with who ever has the most medals and goes down from there.

riplikash wrote:I agree with most of what is being said here about chain of command, but I do think there is another important aspect to this: personal authority vs delegated authority.

More importantly, which author is writing the story.

riplikash wrote:The Imperium and their military are not nearly as secular as we are. Between their hero worship, religious fanaticism, and splintered command structure actual ranks can end up being rather secondary characteristics to who ends up being in charge. A popular face often outranks a general in the imperium.

What's most important to remember is that 40k is a game designed by mostly non-military folk, who get most of their military learnin' from watching movies. Considering the age of the author's we're not talking Black Hawk Down either.

Age and experience would come in to it. A chapter master would not see a guardsman as a peer no matter what rank, because the chapter master has centuries more experience. Whereas SM will (sort of) allow themselves to be commanded by very high ranking generals in particular situations, but that is more being given all the relevant information and left to go do their own thing. I'm thinking Vraks, where the SM were called in to help capture the breach in the curtain wall; both SM and guard had to co-ordinate, because the SM were only the initial punch and knew they were holding the few crucial minutes it would take to get the wave of guard in and secured. Without that backup they would have been annihilated. So they had to be ready to go when the guard were ready.


I have a vague recollection of the only person with military authorities over them is the Warmaster (who for obvious reasons changes his title as soon as he gets it...)

WarWizard91 wrote:Starts with who ever has the most medals and goes down from there.

Some Famous Guy wrote:"The Emperor judges you not by your medals, but by your scars"

That quote in mind does that mean: "man you must have been really stupid to get that one"

Slick Psychic wrote:

WarWizard91 wrote:Starts with who ever has the most medals and goes down from there.

Some Famous Guy wrote:"The Emperor judges you not by your medals, but by your scars"

That quote in mind does that mean: "man you must have been really stupid to get that one"

that would be rather amusing, as most people imagine scars to be adding towards your authority, but what if was the reverse? with each new scar you get less power "and this little number i got for trying to destroy a tank rushing Land raider with my las-gun, went from colonel to private that day."

I can imagine Inquisitors having lots of power, since they literally have the say on who's the heretic and can carry out punishments like Exterminatus. How do you deny your Guard regiment to the man who can order the complete destruction of your planet?

Though since Chapter Masters act as both a supreme military and political leader for their Chapters and (theoretically) their recruiting worlds, with total authority over possibly a whole system, they would be above the rank of planetary governor and could deny most people other than a High lord of terra, a primarch, or the Emperor himself. Even Inquisitors must tread carefully, since they're dealing with people several feet taller than them and have implants that allow them to spit acid

The Imperial Guard, as any modern military, would adhere to a strict chain of command: privates listen to their sergeants, sergeants listen to their officers, and officers do the bidding of command. Separate branches of the Imperium (the Imperial Navy, for example) would similarly obey their chain of command to the exclusion of other branches. The only real overlap you're going to have is when forces have been unified into a Crusade or Army Group. An overall commander (Lord Solar, Lord General, Warmaster) would then be appointed, and his staff would be comprised of advisors from the unified branches.

Then you would have organizations that fall outside of a Warmaster's authority, but who might subordinate themselves for as long as it was deemed necessary to assist in the Imperial war effort. Organizations such as the Adeptus Mechanics, Titan Legions, Space Marine Chapters, or the Ecclesiarchy would maintain their own chain of command, while still offering their service to the Warmaster. However, a shrewd Warmaster would know just how much he could ask without overstepping his bounds.

The Inquisition would be above all others. They would not subordinate themselves to any military chain of command. While they may participate in portions of a military campaign, they would not serve at the pleasure of anyone and would likely move in and out of the theatre as they wished.

Skinnattittar wrote:

riplikash wrote:The Imperium and their military are not nearly as secular as we are. Between their hero worship, religious fanaticism, and splintered command structure actual ranks can end up being rather secondary characteristics to who ends up being in charge. A popular face often outranks a general in the imperium.

What's most important to remember is that 40k is a game designed by mostly non-military folk, who get most of their military learnin' from watching movies. Considering the age of the author's we're not talking Black Hawk Down either.

I think 40k has its roots in the Middle Ages much more than in modern military.
Space Marines=Warrior Monks or elite knights such as Templars or Hospitallers
SoB=Same, only militant nuns
IG=The common conscripted troops
The Inquisition represent a more religious authority than anything found in modern times, although they have some parallels to intelligence agencies (think if the CIA were given truly infinite reign).

I think it's based off how well your known. For example, cornel X from the imperial guard once made an army of chaos renagades surrender with only one tank (nelson equivilent basicly). Space marine captain Y respects his tactical prowess and so follows most of his orders though will improvise when he feels that the orders arn't quite right.

Slick Psychic wrote:But what about the other ranks like commisars

I remember reading somewhere that the commisariat exist outside the normal hierarchical structure of the imperial forces, that is the are above no-one and below no-one, however they are delegated the power to personally judge an individuals devotion to the imperial creed, and so it doesn't matter if your the lowest grunt or second-to-the-emprah-himself, if a commisar decides your a heretic expect to die and no-one ask any questions!

from reading many books ...marines are referred to as "my lord" by most humans and they only owe loyalty to one being the emperor of man .. even the high lords of terra cant order a marine to do anything he dosnt want to do .support from a marine chapter is REQUESTED not ordered the chapter master then decides whether it is worth the time and lives of his men to respond ..even the inquisition cant order them around ( a thorn in there side ) death watch are volunteers sent by there chapters to gain valuable experience of fighting xenos ( again it benefits them ) so apart from the emperor of man a marine out ranks every one ....his co-operation is GIVEN not ordered ... cool or what

I think High Inquisitors can requisition SM... in theory at least. In practise accusing a well viewed and successful chapter of heresy doesn't work as well as intended because it's hard to gain support from the rest of the Inquisition. And calling Exterminatus on their homeworld is suicidally stupid (many reference to chapter worlds having exceptionally good orbital defenses and there is the whole of the chapter's fleet that will shoot you).


Putting in a polite quest brings much better results.

Hmmm... but techniqly space marines are ordered around by the high lord of terra because, lets face, if you decide to say no to the people representing the emperour's voice. Well, I think we can expect a visit from the nice Mr. Virus bomb.

Mad Rabbit wrote:
I think 40k has its roots in the Middle Ages much more than in modern military.

Looking further back, i often draw alot of comparisons with ancient cultures, especially the roman empire. After all "Imperium" itself is latin for empire.

wizard12 wrote:Hmmm... but techniqly space marines are ordered around by the high lord of terra because, lets face, if you decide to say no to the people representing the emperour's voice. Well, I think we can expect a visit from the nice Mr. Virus bomb.

one point where does mr virus bomb live ..... battle barges ...strike cruisers..etc


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Morgrim wrote:I think High Inquisitors can requisition SM... in theory at least. In practise accusing a well viewed and successful chapter of heresy doesn't work as well as intended because it's hard to gain support from the rest of the Inquisition. And calling Exterminatus on their homeworld is suicidally stupid (many reference to chapter worlds having exceptionally good orbital defenses and there is the whole of the chapter's fleet that will shoot you).

as once quoted to eisenhorn " an inquisitors authority is TECHNICALLY UNLIMITED " but in reality if the inquisition took out a chapters home world all the other marine chapters would rise up and would wipe them out as they would suddenly have become a threat to them in the future .. so a merry dance of politeness and politics is done and an uneasy truce is held betwine them the same situation exists with the mechanicus

I would say that the Inquisition does have absolute authority (they are, after all, representatives of Him, as per the a ridiculous number of sources...). However, the Imperium of Man is barely holding itself together (I like to think it is being crushed by it's own size), so if an Inquisitor tries to push anyone too hard, they are very likely to break away or incite others to break away.

In that regard, Space Marines are generally asked for their assistance, rather than ordered. It is just as easy to ask someone as to order someone, but one at least seems polite. If a Space Marine and/or their Chapter refuses, they had better have a really good reason other than "I'm not in the mood," such as "are you serious? The Eye of Terror.... invade it? I'm not saying we're sissies or anything, but that just seems like a bad idea. You saw what happened to the 13th Legion, right? They're fething crazy! And total fur-fags now. You know our Power Animal is a salamander.... do you really want us dressing up like salamanders if we make it out? Yeah, I didn't think so. Let's figure out a better option."

brickhouse wrote:

Mad Rabbit wrote:
I think 40k has its roots in the Middle Ages much more than in modern military.

Looking further back, i often draw alot of comparisons with ancient cultures, especially the roman empire. After all "Imperium" itself is latin for empire.

There are certainly Roman elements, especially with the ultrasmurfs, but mist terminology is distinctly medieval:
Crusades, Inquisition, Heretics, Excommunication
Concepts like Penance that tend to appear with Marines and Sisters are also quite medieval
Remember also that Latin was used heavily in the Middle Ages because of the Catholic Church

Also, most of the older Space Marine armour designs were medieval-like.

Yeah, i mean, look at the Black Templars, if you say they have no link at all to the medieval Crusades and the various knightly orders that took part in them, you'd be sorely mistaken.

Many concepts of the Imperium are very medieval, particularly the instant attack on any "heretic" who questions the Emperor. Witch-hunts and burnings anyone? (weren't there even Inquisitors, like in the Spanish Inquisition?)

but if you look at the IG, they are very, very WWII, they would be the exception, rather than the rule.

Commissar Holt is always in charge.

Skinnattittar wrote:I would say that the Inquisition does have absolute authority (they are, after all, representatives of Him, as per the a ridiculous number of sources...). However, the Imperium of Man is barely holding itself together (I like to think it is being crushed by it's own size), so if an Inquisitor tries to push anyone too hard, they are very likely to break away or incite others to break away.

I like to think of it as "the ponderous behemoth that is the Imperium's bureaucracy has so many complicated levels in the hierarchies and exceptions and rules that eventually after 4 years of waiting for the confirmation from the higher-ups that you do indeed have permission to hypothetically possibly kinda maybe support a doomed SM or IG force in one system or another (Cadian Gate or Ultramar or something), you receive notice that the permit you need is the job of entirely different department you just say "screw this, ima gonna go get a sammich" "