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Looking at the new BA codex, it appears Vanguard are actually viable now. So I'm debating on how to arm mine. Here are my thoughts;

Should limit ini 1 weapons to take advantage of likely furious charge (Priest proximity). Still need one so they aren't stuck with Wraithlords/Dreads though.
Infernus pistols aren't really a priority, as they cannot shoot the turn they use heroic intervention
Glaive Encarmine for the Sgt. seems to be a no brainer (Free master crafted PW, ok!)
Storm shields are now worth it considering the cost and the fact FNP will save you from torrents

So I'm thinking;


Sgt. --- Glaive Encarmine
1 Vanguard with Thunder Hammer
4 Vanguard with Storm Shields + LC
2 Vanilla Vanguard


Unit clocks around 400ish points. Considering that they will likely get the charge and most likely have furious, we have;

8 non power weapon attacks at Str/Ini 5
12 LC attacks at Str/Ini 5
3 Glave Attacks at Str/Ini5

So, lets run them against some dedicated assault units. TH/SS Terminators are one of the baddies in the game right now, lets give them a whirl;

8 Normal Attacks = 4 hits
4 hits at Str 5 = 2.64 wounds
2.64 wounds = .42 dead terminators

12 LC attacks = 6 hits
6 hits at Str 5 with rerolls = 5.3 wounds (Terms need to use 3++ here)
5.3 wounds = 1.8 dead terminators

3 Glave Encarmine attacks = 2.25 hits
2.25 hits = 1.12 wounds (Terms need to use 3++ here)
1.12 wounds = .38 dead terminators


So, before the Thunder Hammer and Terminators get their attacks, we have a total of 2.6 dead Terminators. Now they go off as does our Thunder Hammer

3 Thunder Hammer attacks = 1.5 hits
1.5 hits = 1.26 wounds (Terms need to use 3++ here)
1.26 wounds = .42 dead terminators

So our Vanguard have killed a total of 3 Terminators. TH/SS Terminators usually run in packs of 7-8 and that will be shorting the Terms some, but lets run the numbers against typical squad size;

8-2.6 dead Terminators at Ini 5 = 5.4 terminators left. We'll round up to make up some points and say 6 left standing to attack at initiative one;

12 Attacks = 6 hits
6 hits = 5 wounds
5 wounds = 2.32 dead Vanguard

TH/SS Terminators kill 2.32
Vanguard kill 3





Against a Slaanesh Daemon Prince
He goes first;

4 Attacks = 2.64 hits
2.64 hits = 2.21 wounds
2.21 wounds = .74 dead Vanguard



Vanguard go

8 Normal Attacks = 4 hits
4 hits at Str 5 = 2 wounds
2 wounds = .66 wounds on the Prince

9 LC attacks = 4.5 hits (We lost one of these guys to the Prince at Ini 6)
4.5 hits at Str 5 with rerolls = 3.4 wounds (Prince needs to use 5++ here)
3.4 wounds = 2.24 wounds

3 Glave Encarmine attacks = 2.25 hits
2.25 hits = .74 wounds (Prince needs to use 5++ here)
.74 wounds = .49 wounds on the Prince

3 Thunder Hammer attacks = 1.5 hits
1.5 hits = 1.26 wounds (Prince needs to use 5++ here)
1.26 wounds = 1.05 wounds on the Prince

Daemon Prince kills 1 Vanguard (rounding up)
Vanguard cause 4.44 wounds on the Prince, killing him


Now, of course the Vanguard cost double the cost of a Prince...but that's quite an alpha strike assault unit that can pick an exposed unit on the board, assault and kill it. I was going to run numbers against Orks/Marines....but looking back at my post, that's a lot of math ^^. Any thoughts on their Vanguard load out?

If I run them I am going to run them fairly cheap. Most likely with just 2 power weapons added. Possibly with a Thunder hammer or fist in place of one of them.

I plan to drop them in to make you of Heroic intervention so points become an issue for me as they can still mishap or end up out of range.
With the 2 added power weapons and packs they clock in at 195 points. A fist puts em just over 200.
While the glaive is interesting I'm not sure it matters much in the long run. 2 attacks base with 1 re-roll vs 3 attacks base no re-roll. Its not really much of a difference.

Cheers,
~Volkan

I suppose the glaive in my loadout could add another wound pool. If they were lucky enough to be near a priest it might matter.

Volkan wrote:If I run them I am going to run them fairly cheap. Most likely with just 2 power weapons added. Possibly with a Thunder hammer or fist in place of one of them.

I plan to drop them in to make you of Heroic intervention so points become an issue for me as they can still mishap or end up out of range.
With the 2 added power weapons and packs they clock in at 195 points. A fist puts em just over 200.
While the glaive is interesting I'm not sure it matters much in the long run. 2 attacks base with 1 re-roll vs 3 attacks base no re-roll. Its not really much of a difference.

Cheers,
~Volkan

I suppose the glaive in my loadout could add another wound pool. If they were lucky enough to be near a priest it might matter.

Yeah, another build I was considering was to go cheap on them and do the following;

Multiple small squads of 5-6
Glave
Thunder hammer
Stormshields

The glaive is free for the Sarg....so why not? SS + 3+/FNP means they should stick for awhile...and basically you are relying on the Glaive and TH to do your damage. Then you would just need to multi-assault against beefy units.

I just finished read-through #1 of the new Blood Angels codex, but a local player runs a squad of Vanguard Vets without jump packs and puts them in a Land Raider Crusader. He's a new player, so it hasn't performed miracles for him yet, but I think it's a solid idea.

Even with Descent of Angels, it still seems to me that you'd have a decent chance to screw up your Deep Strike roll. Have you had problems with that?

@ageofegos: wow I like your idea with the glaive and storm shields, though wouldnt it be cheaper and just as effective if you didnt give them the Lightning claws? What about giving them melta bombs as well? What I planned on doing was using my other DS units to pop transports with their many melta weapons and having the vanguard assault whatever is inside, and if I fail to pop anything the vanguard could still assault and possibly pop the tank anyways.

Random question: If I attache Dante to a unit of Vanguard will the Vanguard unit lose Heroic intervention or would Dante gain it?

Lorek wrote:I just finished read-through #1 of the new Blood Angels codex, but a local player runs a squad of Vanguard Vets without jump packs and puts them in a Land Raider Crusader. He's a new player, so it hasn't performed miracles for him yet, but I think it's a solid idea.

Even with Descent of Angels, it still seems to me that you'd have a decent chance to screw up your Deep Strike roll. Have you had problems with that?

I don't know yet to be honest, I'm one of those ultimate consumer types that buys something...then tries to make it work .

I figured this though, with d6 your max scatter is 6. If you place your initial model 7ish inches away, this essentially means;

Hit--no ill effect you can still assault
Scatter 6 toward---start building your circle around the 1st marine away from the enemy (Which should prevent mishap).

If I were to go the terminator/assault route...I think TH/SS FNP Terms would be the way to go. I'm dead set on an all jump pack, no vehicles army though. I'm tired of putting rhinos on the board and watching my marines sit to the side.

I'm all for the cheap squads. 2 PWs and 1 TH/PF is the way to go in most games.

As for deep striking DOA is pretty accurate so I don't think it will become a problem at all.

Luthon1234 wrote:@ageofegos: wow I like your idea with the glaive and storm shields, though wouldnt it be cheaper and just as effective if you didnt give them the Lightning claws? What about giving them melta bombs as well? What I planned on doing was using my other DS units to pop transports with their many melta weapons and having the vanguard assault whatever is inside, and if I fail to pop anything the vanguard could still assault and possibly pop the tank anyways.

Random question: If I attache Dante to a unit of Vanguard will the Vanguard unit lose Heroic intervention or would Dante gain it?

Yeah, I'm thinking about dropping the LCs and letting the Glaive/TH do the work (Plus torrent of attacks). Man if you landed a Priest and Sanguinor next to them...and your Sarg received his blessing...oh my attacks.


RE: Dante: No Heroic Intervention then. The only strong argument I've seen to sneak an IC into Vanguard has been;

Deep strike Vanguard
Deep strike IC within 2 inches of them (They automatically join due to proximity)
Vanguard do not lose Heroic Intervention, as they previously met the rule for Heroic Intervention

However, I think that's pretty cheesy to be honest...it's obvious what intent was. You still can deep strike a Sang Priest unit next to them, then run towards them to make sure they receive his bonuses though!

I run 2 PWs and 1 fist in a 7 man squad. Much cheaper than that 400 point squad, and still really effective.

I'm using two lightning claws on the sarge, the re-roll to wound is more important to me than the re-roll to hit since he's only str 4.

The squad also gets a couple power weapons, so the target is obviously only infantry, but if they can assault a unit already tied up by a regular assault squad they can make a huge difference and survive combat since they can't be targeted the turn the join the assault.

keep in mind while the glaive is mastercrafted it is 2 handed so you lose out on an attack for 2 CCW's

What if you tried Sanguinary Guard instead of Vets? As they get jump packs and Master Crafted PW at base for 200pts, with a 2+ armour save, just throw a priest in there..
Comes out cheaper then the vets, and you only loose the deep strike assault.. while that is a big loss, you can deepstrike far away so you don't get shot up in one turn and still get the charge on the next turn. Also, AP 4 guns are pretty solid.

Why would anyone take a Glaive or Power Weapon over a Lightning Claw when they're the same price?

Power Weapon gets no rerolls at all
Glaive gets to reroll only ONE failed to-hit
LC rerolls all failed to-wounds.

I'm not following.

Other then that, I'm running my squads as small, elite killing, troops.
They deep strike in next to a squad of something like Tyranid Warriors, Obliterators, etc..and make their attempts to kill it with Heroic Intervention.

SinSygon wrote:Why would anyone take a Glaive or Power Weapon over a Lightning Claw when they're the same price?

Power Weapon gets no rerolls at all
Glaive gets to reroll only ONE failed to-hit
LC rerolls all failed to-wounds.

I'm not following.

Other then that, I'm running my squads as small, elite killing, troops.
They deep strike in next to a squad of something like Tyranid Warriors, Obliterators, etc..and make their attempts to kill it with Heroic Intervention.

As I had pointed out to me in another thread, if you lose the PW, you lose the additional attack (CCW/Power Weapon). So really, it's not a gain at all by taking the 2 handed version. I don't believe the Sergeant has access to a LC though, only the normal troopers (Who don't have access to the Glaive).

They are still expensive if you start loading them up with stuff like stormshields & thunderhammers. Personally I like Sanguinary Guard better... They can take the chapter banner, infernus pistols and power fists plus the 2+ armor save is really nice. Join them with a priest and you have a really hard hitting squad.

G

@ AgeOfEgos, You can replace the power weapon with a lightning claw free, you can swap the bolt pistol for another at 15 points or just take the loss of extra attack.

As for adding a deepstriking char next to them that doesn't deep strike with them its really the same thing as that char will not be able to charge when it comes down. Although a char on the field already could attach to them and I don't see a problem with that.

I personally plan to use them very aggressively. I want them to drop in and hit my opponent's heavy weapon's teams, gun line, or dismounted troops. I want them to cause my opponent to be distracted with a new threat that is actively engaging his forces without warning. He can let them be to deal with the rest of my army or deal with them while I advance. Their sole job will be sowing chaos in his ranks.
This is also why I plan on them staying cheap. I like the load of 1 PF/TH, 2 PWs and 2/3 basic models. A 220 point mishap isn't nearly as game changing as a 400 point mishap. I don't plan to mishap with Land Raiders with cargo in them and I won't make my VV's cost like that either.

Cheers,
~Volkan

As a thought this could be another place where Corbelo's re-roll could shine. If you plan to make them a bigger more expensive squad re-rolling that scatter could make them more reliable with Heroic Intervention.

I'm not 100% sure but I think that Vanguard don't have DOA. It's only Sanguinary Guard, Assault Marines and some HQ's, if I'm correct.

No its everything with a jump pack.

Volkan wrote:No its everything with a jump pack.

Aha, thanks. That does make them viable. I'd probably go for 2x PW and one Glaive (well, the tin model has a huge sword ).