Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I started this after I posted the following IG Company Command Squad

1x Company Command Squad (Carapace Armour; Medi-pack; Vox Caster; Laspistol x1; Sniper Rifle x1; Colour Sergeant Kell; Nork Deddog; Lord Castellan Creed; Astropath; Master of Ordnance; Officer of the Fleet)

Now I have won with this command squad, in fact I have never lost a single man from this command squad.

Now onto the point;

Is seems every time I don’t use the “Approve list of Characters” out their all I get is “They Suck” or “They are just a Giant Point Sink”. I have a couple of characters out their I don’t care for; Lukas the Trickster is such. Now if you throw him on a list I wont just say he sucks, I will say I don’t think he is worth it, but I you win with him power to you.
Now I would like to have a discussion on the Characters and WHY THEY WORK or WHY THEY DON’T WORK, not “Don’t Take Him He Sucks.” I want stories and observations about their usage.

Thank you for your Time
Anpu42
=0o0=

Most characters just die too easily, guard are terrible at this, because if you don't put them in a tank any kind of Str 6 weapon that opens up on your squad in good numbers has a chance of Instant Deathing your character.

Do you know this from experiance?
What I am Looking for is;
"Lukas Sucks every time I bring him out he dies and takes my whole squad with him before I can Do anything"
"Bjorn Rocks, every time I take him out he kills 3 times his points and lives to.

I haven't seen a competitive list with Bjorn in it, but I'm curious to see somebody take a crack at it. Most objective games are won by owning 1-2 objectives and contesting the rest. I want to see a list where Bjorn gets 1-2 mobile tac squads in support. The instant he dies, wham you own an objective! It's either that or leave that frickin' thing alive for the whole game. Let him die near another objective and you essentially get to rewrite the terms of objective placement. One squad still can't hold two, but two squads can support each other much stronger than one alone.

I think that Eldrad Ulthran is wonderful. He accentuates the offensive abilities of eldar units right where you need them, and your opponent has to expend a great deal of effort to get past that re-rollable 3++ save. Also, he seems to end up punking dreadnoughts in close combat whenever my friend uses him (S9, spear).

Personally, I love Ghazghkull Thraka. At anything above 1500 he is a must-have for any Ork mechanized list. His Waagh! is a great multiplier, and there hasn't yet been a game where he hasn't personally made his points back, usually by krumping the likes of Pedro Kantor, or Vulkan.

In terms of fail characters, for me it is Snikrot. I have run him in a full unit with two burnas, and I am most unimpresses. The theory is that he forces the opponent to alter daployment, and might even kill a squad. For me, he pops up, kills a unit, then gets slaughtered. 265pts later, I am not impressed.

Characters can add a lot of character and flavor to the army (and in case of Marines it can make them miles stronger).

The thing is, the bloated as hell company command squad is not a good unit to have, not because its not durable (it can take quite a bit of punishment) but because of the 400+ points you spend in it.

To the Imperial Guard, those 400+ points can mean adding TWO kitted out Leman Russes, the vehicle that can just wreak entire armies by itself, sure its powerbuilding or something like it, but none can deny that the power of two of these monsters is far far better than hero spam over there.

Marbo=win

Do you know this from experiance?

Me brudder plays Space Wolves with Termy landraider spam with Logan and Ragnar. The game generally goes;

Deployment, he moves his landraiders up, I move up, pop his landraiders, Logan and squad gets out, eats nearest squad, dies to plasma cannon spam.

Repeat for number of Landraiders.

When I play against my moms Tyranids my Captain is my counterattacking force, and though he usually sticks it decently I almost always end up losing him to a Carnifex that charged in afterwards.

When I played against my friends guard list my Captain and my Librarian were killed by a Battle Cannon Instantly after they were forced out of their Rhino.

The only time my Captain has made his points back was against a Combined Guard Platoon where my Friend forgot to buy a Commissar.

My Librarian on the other hand is usually more viable and gets his points equivalent from his psyker powers. My Captain almost never has such luck.

I don't want to go offtopic but its necessary

Ratbarf wrote:
When I play against my moms Tyranids...

REALLY???? Wow!!!

It's far easier to critique a list in the crap/crap/OK/change to this/crap format. Ask why someone thinks something if you don't know. If they can't back up their position, they're usually wrong.

With the emergence of forums like Dakka, and discussion sites like BoLS, I feel like something that works well, but costs too much will suffer groupthink syndrome. With everyone talking about how much X sucks, whenever X comes up in conversation, its "X sucks so much I never use it."
See Also: Ogryns
See Also: Whirlwind
See Also: Typhus

Because of the greater level of discussion than we had back in 3rd, the same way that we get cheese lists from internet discussions, people will shape their attitudes towards what those that they perceive as being experts online think. So I may read the unit entry for Devastators and think they're great, but if I read a thread with 10 people railing against their uselessness, I may change my mind, even if the new opinion isn't backed up by anything.

I don't think its character hate so much as hate for anything perceived as "less competitive."
Try posting a non-Vulkan SM list with the intent of competitive play. I assure you that someone will tell you that you must use Vulkan to succeed. In the same way that melta spam and mech became king, certain things fall by the wayside due simply to popular opinions.
See Also: Codex: Necrons

Humblesteve wrote:I haven't seen a competitive list with Bjorn in it, but I'm curious to see somebody take a crack at it. Most objective games are won by owning 1-2 objectives and contesting the rest. I want to see a list where Bjorn gets 1-2 mobile tac squads in support. The instant he dies, wham you own an objective! It's either that or leave that frickin' thing alive for the whole game. Let him die near another objective and you essentially get to rewrite the terms of objective placement. One squad still can't hold two, but two squads can support each other much stronger than one alone.

I actualy find Bjorn to be a killing machine.
This is just one Games Tally
3 Devistator Squads
2 Venrable Dreadnaughts
an a Tactical Combat Squad

My Damage: None

Anpu42 wrote:I started this after I posted the following IG Company Command Squad

1x Company Command Squad (Carapace Armour; Medi-pack; Vox Caster; Laspistol x1; Sniper Rifle x1; Colour Sergeant Kell; Nork Deddog; Lord Castellan Creed; Astropath; Master of Ordnance; Officer of the Fleet

People don't hate this command squad because it's full of special characters; they hate it because it's a huge points sink that doesn't know what it wants to do. If you're using the sniper or master of ordinance, you're not assaulting. If you're assaulting, you're not using your ranged stuff. I wouldn't be scared of it, I'd just shoot it with a demolisher.

Special characters seem pretty divisive to me. People love them or hate them. In an Ork, Tyranid, or Guard army you can do fine without them, but in a Marine (or variant chapter) army, they can be pretty army changing. Taking all Terminators with Logan is an interesting gimmick, as is taking twin linked melta/flamer weapons, and master crafted thunder hammers with Vulkan. Personally, I don't mind them one bit. Things can get a bit silly when everybody has one, but I generally don't mind. I often use Lysander in my Crimson Fists army, and have taken Logan time to time with my Wolves. I'm not too reliant on them overall though.

Ratbarf wrote:Most characters just die too easily, guard are terrible at this, because if you don't put them in a tank any kind of Str 6 weapon that opens up on your squad in good numbers has a chance of Instant Deathing your character.

That is why you take the cheapest HQ possible, and just spam the enemy with tanks. That is how IG work.

A lot of people find their decked-out HQ choices more efficient than character. The only reason I don't like characters is they can have some really confusing special rules.

Boss 'eadbreaka wrote:

Ratbarf wrote:Most characters just die too easily, guard are terrible at this, because if you don't put them in a tank any kind of Str 6 weapon that opens up on your squad in good numbers has a chance of Instant Deathing your character.

That is why you take the cheapest HQ possible, and just spam the enemy with tanks. That is how IG work.

I figure if you're spending more than 20% of your points value on HQ choices, you're doing something wrong. The exception of course is Space Wolves, since they're all about the herohammering.

Brother SRM wrote:People don't hate this command squad because it's full of special characters; they hate it because it's a huge points sink that doesn't know what it wants to do. If you're using the sniper or master of ordinance, you're not assaulting. If you're assaulting, you're not using your ranged stuff. I wouldn't be scared of it, I'd just shoot it with a demolisher.

I just hope you get the 1st turn to do that. This is my Combined Arms list.

Creed 2k Armor

1x Company Command Squad (Close Combat Weapon x3; Lasgun x2; Carapace Armour; Medi-pack; Vox Caster; Sniper Rifle x1; Colour Sergeant Kell; Nork Deddog; Lord Castellan Creed; Astropath; Master of Ordnance; Officer of the Fleet)

1x Infantry Platoon
-1x Platoon Command Squad (Close Combat Weapon x3; Lasgun x3; Medi-pack; Vox Caster, Lascannon)
Platoon Commander (Las Pistol x1; Power Fist x1)
Commissar (Bolt Pistol x1; Power Fist x1)

3x Infantry Squad (Close Combat Weapon x8; Lasgun x6; Vox Caster; Grenade Launcher x1; Mortar x1)
-1x Sergeant (Laspistol x1; Power Weapon 1x)
-1x Commissar (Bolt Pistol x1; Power Weapon x1)

1x Heavy Weapons Squad (Close Combat Weapon x3; Lasgun x3; Lascannon x3)

1x Veteran Squad (Carapace Armour; Krak Grenades; Close Combat Weapon x7; Lasgun x4; Vox Caster; Meltagun x3; Veteran Weapons Team; Grenadiers, Autocannon x1)
-1x Veteran Sergeant (Krak Grenades; Laspistol; Carapace Armour; Power Weapon)

1x Rough Rider Squad (Hunting Lance x7; Laspistol x9; Meltagun x2)
-1x Rough Rider Sergeant (Hunting Lance; Plasma Pistol)

1x Destroyer Tank Hunter (Laser Destroyer; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers)

1x Leman Russ Squadron (Leman Russ Vanquisher x2)

1x Ordnance Battery (Medusa x1; Medusa w/Bastion-breacher Shells)

You should always take what people say with a grain of salt. Just because they don't like or don't know how to use a certain character, doesn't mean the character is inherently bad or underpowered. On the other hand, there's a reason why so many people take Vulkan, Pedro, Eldrad, Logan, etc. These are the sorts of characters that you can build a list around, and a great deal of play testing has shown that these characters are more than worth it.

If you're looking for personal experience, here's mine: Vulkan is insanely good. Almost every unit in my army benefits from his special rules, and he's a close combat monster to boot. I send him against everything from Daemon Princes to Infantry squads, he's like a swiss army knife.

On a more personal note Anpu42, I've got to agree with Brother SRM's comments here; it's not Creed and Kell that are bad, it's just the setup of your CCS. No special weapons, an Astropath without any units designed for reserves, a random Vox Caster, Medi-pack but no Plasma to take advantage of it, no Chimera hull for protection...I think you get my point, and we're getting way off topic!

I'm a new IG player and my first comment has to be that your list is kind of hard to read. You didn't need to list all the basic equipment, and what's a 'laser destroyer'? You list the medusa and Leman Russ so I'm at a loss as to what the tank hunter is...

Sorry, I went somewhere OT. You really only have 3 named guys and they look like they play well with one another, I'm guessing you use the Astropath for the R. Riders?

I think I see why some players would say this is bad; it looks like an actual Command squad. Nork and a medipack...I might need to try that.

Alot of commisars too, with PWs, what a blob! The longer I look at this the more I want to play it. It is a valid point though about S6 or higher wpns, insta-death is bad and I don't believe there are many inv saves in that squad.

Again I'm new so I'm saying pretty off the cuff things as I don't have the dex memorized just yet.

The Destroyer Tank Hunter is an Imperial Armor Vehicles
Destroyer Laser [72" S-10, AP-1 Large Blast, Ordinance]


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrwhoop wrote:I'm a new IG player and my first comment has to be that your list is kind of hard to read. You didn't need to list all the basic equipment, and what's a 'laser destroyer'? You list the medusa and Leman Russ so I'm at a loss as to what the tank hunter is...

Sorry, I went somewhere OT. You really only have 3 named guys and they look like they play well with one another, I'm guessing you use the Astropath for the R. Riders?

I think I see why some players would say this is bad; it looks like an actual Command squad. Nork and a medipack...I might need to try that.

Alot of commisars too, with PWs, what a blob! The longer I look at this the more I want to play it. It is a valid point though about S6 or higher wpns, insta-death is bad and I don't believe there are many inv saves in that squad.

Again I'm new so I'm saying pretty off the cuff things as I don't have the dex memorized just yet.

Actualy I use Tactical Genius on the Vets.
The Reson for all of the PW Commisars and PW armed Sarges is if I don't take all of the PW I eat MEQ Assualt Squads

Ah, Armour books, right.

Well, I like the characters. So here's my story:

I used Chenkov, a comm lord and a conscript troop with SITNW. The conscripts walked in from reserve and shot up some berserkers. I let him assualt me with CSM term and berserkers while his demon prince had been assualted by chenkov and the lord. Lost the 'scripts but the DP was down to 1 wound and tied up for 2 rounds. Fun times.

I lost the 'scripts because, as I said, I'm new and didn't know about relentless for units wearing term armour. Then again he was afraid of SITNW and 205 pt to tie up 3 terms and 10 CSM was worth it I think.

The only character that I have ever owned is Commisar Yarrick, I only use him when low on points which isn't often. I don't know wether it is just because of the armies I regularly face(orks, tyrannids and guard), or wether it is the same for other people, he gets over loaded or a monstrous creater worth 50 points less than him charge at him and smashhim to a pulp.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only character that I have ever owned is Commisar Yarrick, I only use him when low on points which isn't often. I don't know wether it is just because of the armies I regularly face(orks, tyrannids and guard), or wether it is the same for other people, he gets over loaded or a monstrous creater worth 50 points less than him charge at him and smashhim to a pulp.

A lot of characters "aren't worth it" if you look strictly at their point costs and how much damage they will do during a game. The best characters are ones like Vulkan or Ghazghkull that are alright by themselves (better than alright, actually, for Ghaz) but add immeasurable value to the rest of the army to surpass their points cost. Vulkan is probably the best in this regard with all his soft bonuses. Similarly, Snikrot helps the rest of your army if he makes your enemy deploy away from board edge, closer towards the boyz that actually deal the death blow. He's supposed to be a suicide unit. If you're paying for more than a handful of kommandos and Snikrot, you're paying too much. Small suicide squad is the way to go. He affects deployment, cherry picks on hot target and eliminates it, and diverts fire for a turn. Mission accomplished. He doesn't always pay for himself, but he's a 165-175 points well spent if he's a distraction.

Skarboy wrote:A lot of characters "aren't worth it" if you look strictly at their point costs and how much damage they will do during a game. The best characters are ones like Vulkan or Ghazghkull that are alright by themselves (better than alright, actually, for Ghaz) but add immeasurable value to the rest of the army to surpass their points cost. Vulkan is probably the best in this regard with all his soft bonuses. Similarly, Snikrot helps the rest of your army if he makes your enemy deploy away from board edge, closer towards the boyz that actually deal the death blow. He's supposed to be a suicide unit. If you're paying for more than a handful of kommandos and Snikrot, you're paying too much. Small suicide squad is the way to go. He affects deployment, cherry picks on hot target and eliminates it, and diverts fire for a turn. Mission accomplished. He doesn't always pay for himself, but he's a 165-175 points well spent if he's a distraction.

This is what I tried say to start with [but failed apperently]
It is all about the Synergy just look what I have with my Space Wolf Sysnergy Thread
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/266924.page

To be honest, i tend to structure a character to work out thier value to me.


1: Eternal warrior must be present if the character is over 200 points.
Nothing sucks worse than an expensive model being killed early on by las or b.cannons.

2: Army structure: As known, alot of characters change the structure of a list (wazdakka making bikes troops, meks allowing a dread to be troop etc)
Generally a character that makes something useful is a nice plus.
Scoring sternguard are a great example (not troop, but scoring i think)

3: Army wide abilities: Vulkan being the best known for it
Again, if it has a decent effect, then its a real plus towards the character.


4: Shooting / Combat abilities: A character must be able to fight to some extent.
If not that well, then it must have an ability to make up for it.



Just my views though
As much as i used to love taking mephiston, i hated him not having EW.
Same with dante


Also, due to everyones varying play styles, characters will work for us all, but on a different level, so in a way YMMV.

In my experience Kharn the Betrayer hits like a Daemon Prince, then dies like a Chaos Lord that same round or the round after. The only time I've taken Abaddon he lost one wound to shooting, lost one wound by his Daemon weapon and got finished off in that same combat by tac marines. Yay for popped landraiders :p I love me some Huron Blackheart though. His versatility has always paid off and I've had "good luck" with him surviving. He will kill many, many things in one round.

I have the characters for my Tau and SW armies and would really like to use them. Every time I am actually faced with the option I consider the points being used to bring this one guy in and what am I giving up to do so...I end up not picking them in the end.

REALLY???? Wow!!!

Yah, my mom got into it when my little brother bought the Battle for Macragge set. She ended up with a 1500pt nidzilla list.

ProtoClone wrote:I have the characters for my Tau and SW armies and would really like to use them. Every time I am actually faced with the option I consider the points being used to bring this one guy in and what am I giving up to do so...I end up not picking them in the end.

I can't tell you about the Tau Characters, but the Space Wolf ones [with a few exeptions] is worth every point.