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Requizen wrote:

Marshal_Gus wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Also, it's not quite clear whether or not his Master Chronomancer rule even works on Wraiths.

If the Wraiths aren't in the Harvest formation, they can't get RP so they can't benefit from Orikan's special rule. Wraiths do have a 3+ armor save if that's in question.

Orikan in a Warrior blob is fun though.

Well the discussion was whether or not they can reroll 1s to save, since the rule states: "Orikan and all models with the Reanimation Protocols special rule receive a +1 bonus to RP and can re-roll all saving throws of 1". It seems to indicate that a model can't benefit from the re-roll if they don't have Reanimation Protocols.

Right. That's why I said they can't benefit from his special rule. They could if they are in a Canoptek Harvest formation, you choose RP for the Spyder, and the Wraiths are within 12". I think it would be silly to do, but to each his own.

There are better uses for Harvest Wraiths
(like giving them Beamers, attaching a Destroyer Lord with a Veil, and dropping them next to a MC/GC)

 skoffs wrote:
There are better uses for Harvest Wraiths
(like giving them Beamers, attaching a Destroyer Lord with a Veil, and dropping them next to a MC/GC)

How many wraiths do you prefer in the unit when ran this way? 6 seems like too many but I have never tried this outfit before.

Thanks.

Unlike regular close combat Wraiths where you can get away with 3 or 4 (because all they're supposed to do is catch a thing and hold it),
this definitely a case of "more is better".
You're trying to maximize your chance of rolling a 6.
Therefore, the more dice there is to roll, the better your chances.

I have been fighting back and forth on whether to do whip coils or beamers. The whip coils are alot cheaper in the end and I have found being I5 against MEQ and Orks to be pretty awesome. BUT I can see the beamers being really good considering Necrons lack decent AP2. Is one upgrade considered "better" than the other?

Swinging at initiative 5 has been fun with mine. Most of the time it won't make a difference, as most things just won't hurt the wraiths at all, so going first or last doesn't significantly matter. However, I did put them up against some Imperial Knights on Tuesday, and swinging before that RP-denying D-chainsaw was pretty nifty. I could see where going simultaneous with a wraithknight would be a benefit as well. Against most other stuff, though, the whip coils are superfluous.

The beamers are likely to be the same way. Useful against a Big Bad, but hilarious overkill against anything else.

Recent thought:

Orikanstar is great. I often cite it as my favorite deathstar in the game, just by pure unkillableness and Assault power, it's great. But, I started thinking about other ways to work with the army, because variety is the spice of life.

So my first thought was that, in the Orikanstar, the major downfall (other than the mobility, which we can't do much about) is that it doesn't do amazingly against 2+ saves, heavy vehicles, or some high Toughness enemies. You get around this by adding Lords/Overlords with Warscythes, but then I started thinking - couldn't we do something similar with Warscythe Lychguard?

The innate power of Orikanstar is the pure durability. Taking Scytheguard over Shieldguard somewhat lessens this, but not by so much. Against anything that's not AP3, a Scytheguard with Orikan is just as durable. You're still saving on 3s rerolling 1s. The difference comes with AP3 or better, obviously. At that point you don't have a save other than RP. But, you can get one! A Chronometron gives you a 5++ against shooting. 5++ rerolling 1s isn't fantastic by itself, but then you follow it up with a 4+ RP (which you have even in a CAD with Orikan + Chronotek) and suddenly that's slightly better than a 3++! Shield Lychguard with a Chronotek are statistically tougher Thunderhammer/Stormshield Terminators in every case except exactly AP3. Not bad.

This reduces or indeed removes the need to have Lords/Overlords in the unit. 2 attackes per Guard with Warscythes is a scary, scary proposition. You need ~8 Scytheguard to kill a Knight in a single round, so even he gets the charge, you have a good chance of wrecking him in one go. That's terrifying. Where the Orikanstar with Shields is a Wall that can't be broken, replacing it with Shields turns it into a Blender of epic proportions. Though, the durability you sacrifice will be much more felt in Assault, where the Chronometron does nothing. Then, if you're against AP2/AP3 weaponry, you're relying on characters to take it on their Phase Shifters.


My next thought was that it felt somewhat awkward just taking Zahndrekh for Zealot. I mean, he's great and you can occasionally get special rules out of him, but a lot of the time you're just bringing him to keep your Star from running away. So, what could we take instead? The only Fearless units in the book are Canoptek units. Or, as I had forgotten, Praetorians. Now, Praetorians are cool. Same statline as Lychguard but Jump and different weaponry. Rods give you AP2 (though not Armorbane, though that's not as huge as we have Gauss and H.Destroyers to kill vehicles) and Jump gives you Hammer of Wrath as long as you only move 6. So even if you "slow them down" by adding Orikan, you're still getting good power out of them. Lots of S5 AP2 attacks will make short work out of... well darn near anything that doesn't have a Stormshield. Or, on the other hand, even more S5 AP4/Rending/Entropic attacks will make them a variable threat and somewhat make up for the lack of Armorbane (though they probably won't insta-wreck a Knight like Scytheguard).

So, if you run similarly to the Scytheguard star above (Orikan + Chronotek + Praetorians), you can have a pretty scary deathstar. Again, not as durable as the Shieldguard star, but pretty strong damage output. Plus, decent shooting with either weapon output. And while they're not as hard to kill as Shieldguard, they'll tarpit nearly as well just by Fearless keeping them in combat even if they lose a couple.



Now, the question becomes, are either of these as "competitive" as Shieldguard? Well... probably not. In fact, AP2 is often overkill. S5 AP3 is enough to kill everything that's not mass Terminators, and as before you generally have a couple Warscythe Characters + Orikan to deal with them. And the ability to eat probably an entire army's shooting for a turn and only lose a guy or two is pretty fantastic for Shieldguard.

I think that if any of the options could be considered "competitive", it would be Voidblade/Particle Praetorians with Orikan + Chronotek. Durable enough to laugh at most things short of Lascannons, lots of S6 Shooting (albeit only at 12" and AP5), and decent Assault thanks to 3 attacks per model, possible HoW, and Rending/Entropic. 10 Void Praetorians (Voidtorians? Doesn't work as well as Lychguard) is 20 points cheaper than 10 Shieldguard, and the Chronotek is 60 points cheaper than Zahndrekh (and still cheaper if you take Nightmare Shroud or Solar Staff).

The fact that you'd have to run 2 Crypteks in it and don't particularly need Lords/Orverlords means it's probably better in a CAD (in a Decurion you'd need at least 2 Overlords and 1 Lord to take the Royal Court with them), so it hurts the durability of the rest of your army, but if you were looking to run a CAD anyway it's not a bad choice. I think the main thing about this is showing off just how freaking good Orikan is. Easily tied with Zahndrekh for best character in the book, even with the Nemesor's tactical flexibility.

I don't think this'll dethrone Orikanstar (Shields) or Canoptek Harvest Wraiths as the big scary unit in the codex, but it's interesting. And I'm the sort of guy who can get tired of running the same list every week, so it provides a neat alternative that's not as competitive, so probably slightly better for those casual games. I know my FLGS is already tired of trying to kill and/or escape my Orikanstar, so it'd be a nice change of pace.



Anyway, that's my idea and probably the next thing I build out. What do you guys think?

Since i don't currently have the models to run Decurion, I love this (^) post.

I've been considering using CAD + Destroyer cult, just because a few people I know really dislike facing decurions. Using shieldguard as a distraction unit could be fun!

Yeah, I really like using the Decurion in competitive games (never dying = yes), but sometimes it feels a bit much for fun games. People tend to get frustrated when they can't remove more than a couple Warriors from the board - which is fine when you're both trying to win... but when someone is just having their weekly game time can tend to annoy some people

Using shieldguard in a cad because the decurion is too resilient kind of misses the point. =P

Especially if you take Orikan.

I can kind of agree, though. I've only gotten two games in with the new book, but so far a decurion with two canoptek harvests is playing a lot like my last-book wraithwing + Tesla spam army, where games would often end with me only removing 1-3 units from the table. Sometimes none at all. And the looks on my opponents' faces after those games were the reason why I shelved my necrons around last October or so to wait for the new book. Cuz wraiths were so good, they were totally gonna get nerfed, right? >_<

So now I'm going to be experimenting with the Judicator Battalion and Destroyer Cult formations to see how those games go. I always wanted to use Praetorians, just because of how cool they look, and with the Decurion I feel like I can do things other than spam wraiths and still bring a solid army to the table. If that also ends up being a face-stomper, we'll see.

But, while I have no problem considering a CAD for the drop to RP, I would really be annoyed to have to go back to having my skimmers not have move through cover. Not being immobilized in the movement phase has been really nice, y'know?

Well if the shieldguard are just as durable in the CAD, then my opponent can't complain about the decurion
Move through cover and relentless are the boosts I enjoy the most.

I've got a local tourney next month, trying to decide what my 1850 should be. I'm fairly convinced of doing Orikanstar, because I want to see firsthand how it works in a tourney setting.

Besides that, I'm not sure. I can do the Orikanstar + Destroyer Cult Decurion I posted a few pages ago, but as noted, it's a bit slow mobility wise aside from the Tomb Blades and maybe using the Destroyer Thrust moves offensively. Though, I guess if I desired to do so I could Deep Strike the Destroyers. They have no inertial guidance to keep them from mishapping, but DSing one or two of the units could give me some board presence and answers to certain army types.

On the other hand, I could say hose it and do something pretty different

Assaultcrons: /1850



This seems like a really fun list. Still lots of units, and at much higher mobility thanks to two units of Blades, plus Wraiths and Scarabs, Flayed Ones Infiltrating or Outflanking, and possibly DSing a unit with Obyron. I dropped a Shieldguard to make room for some more Immortals - it hurt me, it really does hurt to not run full 10 man Shieldguard .

It's really sturdy. Decurion is always good for being tough, and the big units of Troops will be hard to remove. Wraiths and Orikanstar will be tanking hard and charging headlong into whatever they can, 3++ good even against those darn Eldar that I'm sure we'll be seeing.

I really like the inclusion of Obyron for this. If I don't need my deathstar to have the extra Warscythe, he can join other units to give them a 2+ to tank on and the ability to Ghostwalk my Immortals to where they want to be. And if they want to be next to my Orikanstar, he won't scatter thanks to Zahndrekh being there!

However, this list has some misgivings.

First, there's a lack of high-power shooting. Taking down MCs or 2+ saves from a distance is going to be rough. However, slightly mitigated by two good Warscythe holders and Wraiths, meaning that once I reach things they should die nicely. I don't think this is a big downside, but missing out on Heavy Destroyers really hurts against certain armies.

Second, the min Scarabs makes me frown a bit. They're going to be sitting ducks for easy kill points, even with RP up. I'm considering shifting some points around to give them some more bases.

Related to that point, I don't have a serious way to defeat Imperial Knights. With the new Codex, I have a feeling we'll see a couple Knights if not more. Heavy Destroyers (and even regular Destroyers with the Cult reroll) were a big answer to me in the other list, but now from a range I'd just have Gauss trying to plink away. Scarabs and Wraiths are not terrible in this way, as they can strip hull points on 6s, and that really pressures me into getting more Scarabs into the list. If I get the Overlord and Obyron into the fight, they can Warscythe it down while the Shieldguard tank the D hits. But, both of those require me to get into combat with the Knights, which is much less reliable than blowing them up from a range. Especially if people start running some of those IK formations, like the 5 Knight one that makes them all Barons. Scary stuff.

The other issue I have is Wraith Eldar. This will be played with unmodified D, so I'm pretty darn terrified of Wraithguard coming out. As a good portion of the list is Assault, charging into Overwatching Scythe Wraithguard will be downright terrifying. The Shieldguard will be pretty ok at it (still getting their Invuln rerolls) and the Wraiths might survive it, but it's a pretty scary proposition. Again, the Destroyer Cult spam had the ability to counter this hard just by having S5 AP3 or S9 AP2 guns rerolling wounds. That's killing Wraithguard super easy and even doing good work against Wraithknights.


Both lists have their merits. One is better shooting, the other is faster and better at Assault. The variable threats we see in the game right now can be countered by both in some ways. I think the Cult one counters Knights, Eldar, and certain shooting armies better, while the Harvest list counters MSU, cover huggers, and mobile lists better.

Opinions? For reference, this is the one I used at Adepticon and went 2-1-1 with:



Mobility in this list came from the Flayed Ones infiltrating and the Conclave Veil'ing forward. It worked well, for the most part.

Requizen,

If you want a different spin on OrikanStar, try the one I've been running. Throw Orikan into a unit of wraiths and throw in a destroyer lord w/the shroud and a phase shifter. He can jump forward in the assault phase to stay ahead of the unit (usually) and with a res orb is stupidly durabke even outside of the decurion. Orikan is of course monstrously slow but hey, there's always Master of Ambush and the fact that charging into combat helps you consolidate across the table a ton. Yeah you lose fleet but hey, can't have everything.

The only real weakness of this star is armies that can flank around your primary tank. But with the lord having a scythe, and Orikan bejng natively AP 2 with re-rolls to hit, and eventually being a monster, plus rending, it's pretty darn effective against....well...everything more or less

 luke1705 wrote:
Requizen,

If you want a different spin on OrikanStar, try the one I've been running. Throw Orikan into a unit of wraiths and throw in a destroyer lord w/the shroud and a phase shifter. He can jump forward in the assault phase to stay ahead of the unit (usually) and with a res orb is stupidly durabke even outside of the decurion. Orikan is of course monstrously slow but hey, there's always Master of Ambush and the fact that charging into combat helps you consolidate across the table a ton. Yeah you lose fleet but hey, can't have everything.

The only real weakness of this star is armies that can flank around your primary tank. But with the lord having a scythe, and Orikan bejng natively AP 2 with re-rolls to hit, and eventually being a monster, plus rending, it's pretty darn effective against....well...everything more or less

Just don't add 50000 characters to it ITS A TRAP!!!

 krootman. wrote:
Just don't add 50000 characters to it ITS A TRAP!!!

Speaking of adding a bajillion characters, has anyone experimented with the Royal Court much yet?
Pre-7th codex, the RCDI was a fun alternative build deathstar, but it was only able to bulldoze its way through everything because of massed Warscythes, MSS, and 2+/3++ saves. The only thing we've got left is Warscythes, but I'm not sure 3-5 of those with a couple support Crypteks is going to be much of an issue for anyone nowadays... unless shooty court in a party bus is still a thing?

1x Overlord (S.o.Light, G.o.Fire)
3x Lords (S.o.Light, G.o.Fire)
3x Crypteks (S.o.Light)
All embarked in a Ghost Ark.

That's 21 S5 AP3 shots or 9 S9 AP3 and 4 S4 AP5 templates, depending on what you want to fire at,
Plus 10 S4 AP5 Gauss shots on each side of the Ark.
All for 570.
How would that compare to equal points worth of Destroyers? (our other source of mass S5 AP3)
Would there be any (good) way to improve upon this? Any way to make it something you might actually want to try fielding? (Albeit only in fun games, probably)

luke1705 wrote:Requizen,

If you want a different spin on OrikanStar, try the one I've been running. Throw Orikan into a unit of wraiths and throw in a destroyer lord w/the shroud and a phase shifter. He can jump forward in the assault phase to stay ahead of the unit (usually) and with a res orb is stupidly durabke even outside of the decurion. Orikan is of course monstrously slow but hey, there's always Master of Ambush and the fact that charging into combat helps you consolidate across the table a ton. Yeah you lose fleet but hey, can't have everything.

The only real weakness of this star is armies that can flank around your primary tank. But with the lord having a scythe, and Orikan bejng natively AP 2 with re-rolls to hit, and eventually being a monster, plus rending, it's pretty darn effective against....well...everything more or less

The other weakness being that Orikan doesn't work on the Wraiths without the Canoptek Harvest being in effect. But other than that, it's fine. What I like to do with Harvest Wraiths is give them Beamers and then add the DLord into them, because Rerolling 1s to hit and wound increases your chance of getting those really good guns to work.

krootman. wrote:

Just don't add 50000 characters to it ITS A TRAP!!!

It's actually quite not. While I list out all the characters and talk about adding them to the Star, the beautiful thing about all of them being ICs is that you don't need to do that. If I run an Orikanstar with Zahndrekh, Lord, Overlord, and DLord, then yeah, at times I'll want them all in one unit like that. But it's not always necessary, and being ICs they can join other units. Do I not think I'll need Fearless on the Star in a certain matchup? Then I throw Zahndrekh in another unit where he can use his powers for other things. The opponent doesn't have a lot of High Toughness or 2+? Then I spread out the Warscythes since they're not necessary in the Star. Makes my Warriors/Immortals better in Assault and can give the DLord's PE to them as well.

ICs, especially those with special rules, aren't problematic to have in an army. It sucks that we're "forced" to take a bunch with the Royal Court, but it's not a drawback in my book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skoffs wrote:

 krootman. wrote:
Just don't add 50000 characters to it ITS A TRAP!!!

Speaking of adding a bajillion characters, has anyone experimented with the Royal Court much yet?
Pre-7th codex, the RCDI was a fun alternative build deathstar, but it was only able to bulldoze its way through everything because of massed Warscythes, MSS, and 2+/3++ saves. The only thing we've got left is Warscythes, but I'm not sure 3-5 of those with a couple support Crypteks is going to be much of an issue for anyone nowadays... unless shooty court in a party bus is still a thing?

1x Overlord (S.o.Light, G.o.Fire)
3x Lords (S.o.Light, G.o.Fire)
3x Crypteks (S.o.Light)
All embarked in a Ghost Ark.

That's 21 S5 AP3 shots or 9 S9 AP3 and 4 S4 AP5 templates, depending on what you want to fire at,
Plus 10 S4 AP5 Gauss shots on each side of the Ark.
All for 570.
How would that compare to equal points worth of Destroyers? (our other source of mass S5 AP3)
Would there be any (good) way to improve upon this? Any way to make it something you might actually want to try fielding? (Albeit only in fun games, probably)

Compared to Destroyers? Bad. Less range, less shooting, less mobility (Ghost Ark is still only 6", no JSJ), less wounds/models. 570 is 14 Destroyers and change, so you're not getting anything like bang for your buck. Flamers in an open topped is nice, but they're regular flamers and that's nothing special. I can't really think of a good use for RCDI, honestly.

Sad days.
Best we can hope for is the FAQ comes along and errata's the Ghost Ark to carry more than just Warriors and HQ and we can have a boat for our Warscythe Lychguard.
...
yeah, i know.
:(

Hey guys,

I've recently finished converting some crons into OrkCrons to take as Cron allies... nightscythes and TL tesla destructors are brutal! was highly impressed.

I took deathmarks, however I often read this thread but they don't seem to get a mention in many lists, any reason? In my 2 games running cron allies they have neutered some DSing plasma units and have done some serious work for me.

Deathmarks, and indeed Night Scythes, are some of the few units to go down in quality from last edition in a codex that buffed most of the army.

They're not bad at all, though to be perfectly honest they tend to be more useful for redirecting an opponent's attention than for their actual damage in my experience.

Oh yes, and they're elite. Elites are cramped for good choices now.

Didn't we just get through explaining how good 10 Deathmarks with an attached Destroyer Lord were a couple pages ago?

 skoffs wrote:
Didn't we just get through explaining how good 10 Deathmarks with an attached Destroyer Lord were a couple pages ago?

The new Deathmarks are, imo, worse than they were last edition by a good margin. Ethereal Interception is better, sure, but HfH is significantly worse (doesn't last past your first shooting phase, doesn't confer to other Deathmark units, etc), which was their most powerful asset. They dropped 1 ppm for it, sure, but now instead of a "basically guaranteed do delete one enemy unit" squad, they're only really useful to counter deep striking enemies. If they're not doing that, then they're going to do some shock damage on their first deep strike, but nothing more impressive than any other deep striking unit imo. I'm not a fan of single gimmick units, personally.

 skoffs wrote:
Didn't we just get through explaining how good 10 Deathmarks with an attached Destroyer Lord were a couple pages ago?

I did indeed read that page Destroyer lord on my conversion table as we speak, assaulting on my turn after intercept... ouch.
I just meant that when looking at lists that pop up on this thread they generally aren't a unit I see. As orks DSing melta and flamers can really ruin my open-topped wagons, so the deathmarks proved very useful, the one shot gimmick generally meant I could stay positioned to get the charge next turn. Although having run crons alongside my orks and having them pull far more weight than the orks did has saddened me a little

Yeah, Deathmarks are pretty situational, now. Nowhere near the worst, but definitely not top tier in the codex.
If you're facing reserve heavy lists or MCs/GCs, yes, the Death & Destruction combo is going to come in handy!
Otherwise, they're gonna do a thing, maybe wipe out some unit, then go hide in cover on an objective for the rest of the game (though the loose Destroyer Lord will probably have fun running around until he dies)

 skoffs wrote:
Yeah, Deathmarks are pretty situational, now. Nowhere near the worst, but definitely not top tier in the codex.
If you're facing reserve heavy lists or MCs/GCs, yes, the Death & Destruction combo is going to come in handy!
Otherwise, they're gonna do a thing, maybe wipe out some unit, then go hide in cover on an objective for the rest of the game (though the loose Destroyer Lord will probably have fun running around until he dies)

Oh yeah, there's definitely situations where they're a very solid unit. It depends on your meta (or, if you're a tournament player, the tourney meta) - if you see lots of GMCs or Drop Pod lists, they're not a bad choice. If you don't, then well, they're going to do ok but will probably never really wow you. So, I guess it depends if you like to have niche units in your army or better all arounders. Niche units can be worth double their points costs or half, depending on what happens and what your opponent has.

In the game I used them, the D lord wasn't needed, and mine kept misshapping when I tried to do the interception move, eventually they were in my corner and sat on an objective.

Requizen wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Didn't we just get through explaining how good 10 Deathmarks with an attached Destroyer Lord were a couple pages ago?

The new Deathmarks are, imo, worse than they were last edition by a good margin. Ethereal Interception is better, sure, but HfH is significantly worse (doesn't last past your first shooting phase, doesn't confer to other Deathmark units, etc), which was their most powerful asset. They dropped 1 ppm for it, sure, but now instead of a "basically guaranteed do delete one enemy unit" squad, they're only really useful to counter deep striking enemies. If they're not doing that, then they're going to do some shock damage on their first deep strike, but nothing more impressive than any other deep striking unit imo. I'm not a fan of single gimmick units, personally.

I mean, they'll serve as a distraction unit, soaking up some fire for a turn or two, and if they're still alive by their second turn, they still give Necrons something they don't have a lot of: wounding on a set number, and ranged rending.

Royal court of tacticians,

I am playing orks next week and want to know how competitive the death bringer flight is. I am considering a 4 doom scythes, a fairly strong decurion with at least 5 warrior squads, maxed out tomb blades, and 20 flayed ones to go with my lord. Idea is to have a lot of models on the table with a massive blanket of air cover to roll back the on coming tide. Any ideas?

Thanks, Ff

Ffyllotek wrote:
Royal court of tacticians,

I am playing orks next week and want to know how competitive the death bringer flight is. I am considering a 4 doom scythes, a fairly strong decurion with at least 5 warrior squads, maxed out tomb blades, and 20 flayed ones to go with my lord. Idea is to have a lot of models on the table with a massive blanket of air cover to roll back the on coming tide. Any ideas?

Thanks, Ff

Air support can be an interesting list. However, Doom Scythes can be finicky. Do you think there's a need for the Lance Blasts, like a Stompa, Nauts, or lots of Battlewagons? If not, then most of what you're paying is pretty well wasted. The Tesla weapons are pretty good at dropping Hordes of Orks and their big Gunz, but you can also do that just as well (and cheaper) with Night Scythes on the troops.

But, if you think that the Death Rays will be useful, you can go for it. They demolish those pesky Superheavies with no issue, for one. They'll Instadeath those Ork Bikers so they don't get a Painboy save, and do the same for any other unit with FNP. And, as a lot of people are using Meganobz in 2+ armor now, you can ignore that without taking Praetorians or Heavy Destroyers.

So, I think overall it's a decent idea. Just remember that the Scythes can never stop Zooming, so depending on the board and positioning, occasionally it'll be hard to get more than a shot or two off before they have to fly off the board, and they can never hold objectives. So you have to really try to control the flow of the battle and plan your placement a turn in advance so you can place the Scythes in a good spot.

You may want to consider having a Reserve manipulator somewhere, given that you're talking about 640 points in reserve. You can't take Fortifications for a Comms relay using a Decurion, so that leaves Zahndrekh or Imotekh for the Warlord Traits. Zahndrekh can go with the Flayed Ones to give them Fearless, though given how Infiltrators works he can't deploy with them. Still, worthwhile combo there.

I'm ogf the opinion you need neither orkinstar or canoptek harvest to field a heavy cc list. The best back up cc in the codex is plain flayed ones with a decurion detachment.



I'm not going to kill and WKs but I can tie them up. I can cetrtainly be a pain in the but for Tyranids - the Obelisk is a great unit thunderblitzing, btw. .