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I actually had someone try this in a tourney a few weeks back and I was wondering what the actual rule was (did I enforce the correct interpretation of the rules?). I basically told him to lay off the paint thinner.

Here is the situation:

Shrike with Fleeting TH/SS terminators, infiltrates 18" away from my front line.

Shrike leaves Terminator unit, jumping 12" towards my lines (placing him roughly 8" in front of the terminators).

Terminators move up 6", they are now in Coherency range of Shrike. Who rejoins their unit. Then Together they run (fleet) moving 5" towards my line. Putting Shrike (and thus the entire unit) within charge range

Is this even legal, seems like it would completely discount having to move at the speed of the slowest model if you could just unjoin and join again.

It seemed pretty daft to me.

beardy wrote:I actually had someone try this in a tourney a few weeks back and I was wondering what the actual rule was (did I enforce the correct interpretation of the rules?). I basically told him to lay off the paint thinner.

Here is the situation:

Shrike with Fleeting TH/SS terminators, infiltrates 18" away from my front line.

Shrike leaves Terminator unit, jumping 12" towards my lines (placing him roughly 8" in front of the terminators).

Terminators move up 6", they are now in Coherency range of Shrike. Who rejoins their unit. Then Together they run (fleet) moving 5" towards my line. Putting Shrike (and thus the entire unit) within charge range

Is this even legal, seems like it would completely discount having to move at the speed of the slowest model if you could just unjoin and join again.

It seemed pretty daft to me.

No, you cannot.

The rules for an IC Joining a unit state:

In order to join a unit, an independent character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase.

Moving the Unit to within 2" of Shrike does not cause Shrike to join.

beardy wrote:
Shrike leaves Terminator unit, jumping 12" towards my lines (placing him roughly 8" in front of the terminators).

You cannot move 12'', as you are still in the unit until after you move away. All models move at the speed of the slowest model, which is 6'' in this case.

Gwar! wrote:
The rules for an IC Joining a unit state:

In order to join a unit, an independent character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase.

Moving the Unit to within 2" of Shrike does not cause Shrike to join.

The Independent Character did move so that he is within 2'' of a friendly unit at the end of the phase, so he would have joined if he were not in the unit at first.

So could you move the unit away from Shrike first?

thebetter1 wrote:

beardy wrote:
Shrike leaves Terminator unit, jumping 12" towards my lines (placing him roughly 8" in front of the terminators).

You cannot move 12'', as you are still in the unit until after you move away. All models move at the speed of the slowest model, which is 6'' in this case.

Gwar! wrote:
The rules for an IC Joining a unit state:

In order to join a unit, an independent character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase.

Moving the Unit to within 2" of Shrike does not cause Shrike to join.

The Independent Character did move so that he is within 2'' of a friendly unit at the end of the phase, so he would have joined if he were not in the unit at first.

Actually if you re-read it he is 8" away at the end of his movement phase, the Terminators movement brings them to within 2". I am solidly with Gwar on this one and is what I pointed out to the opponent. I was curious as to how others interpreted the ruling, and if there was anything else that supported it one way or the other.

beardy wrote:
Actually if you re-read it he is 8" away at the end of his movement phase, the Terminators movement brings them to within 2". I am solidly with Gwar on this one and is what I pointed out to the opponent. I was curious as to how others interpreted the ruling, and if there was anything else that supported it one way or the other.

That would not be a legal move. Nothing allows you to move a character out of a unit and then come back to move the rest of the unit later. The whole unit moves at the same time. The only exception is when the character leaves and the unit does not want to move at all.

Unless you are claiming that moving so that you end your movement phase within 2'' of a unit is not moving so that you end your movement phase within 2'' of a unit, I really don't see what you are arguing.

No. Shrike and Termies are a unit until the *end* of the units move. That is the only time you check coherency, thus the only time the IC could be judged to have moved out of coherency.

Since they are a unit until after all of the movement is completed, he cannot use the jump pack this turn.

ductvader wrote:So could you move the unit away from Shrike first?

No, for the same reasons. For the IC to leave the unit, he has to move away from them. If the unit moves first, he's going with them.

As long as the IC moves, and ends up out of coherency, the requirements are met.

But he still can't move more than 6"

i believe the person was correct in his movement and while its seems cheesy it was a legit move

1. whether or not a ic is joined to a unit is checked at the end of the movement phase

2.since he is leaving unit A at the start of his movement he can move his full speed ("while an independant character is part of a unit he must obey the usual coherncy rules. the combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the the slowest model 'while they stay together' -big book pg 48 3ed bullet point)

" at the end of their movement phase " means all the units not just the ic so you can move a unit to within two inches and he will join " if a character does not intend to join (or cannot join) a unit it most stay 2" away from it at the end of the movement phase" big book pg 48 1st bullet point 3rd sentence.

2. You just quoted the rule that shows you are wrong.

The IC is part of the unit until the END of the movement phase. Therefore, until the end of the movement phase MUST move at the speed of the slowest model. Therefore can only move 6"

So no, the person was not at all in any way shape or form correct.

i quoted the whole rule but the important part is while they stay together hence the qoutes


Automatically Appended Next Post:
since the ic is moving away from the unit and no longer together with it moves at its speed in this case 12" for having a jumppack

No, please reread.

The IC is part of the unit UNTIL the END of the movement phase. Until the END of the movement phase he must move at the slowest speed of the unit - so 6"

When does he move, before or after the end of the movement phase? It's not a trick question

where does it say he is part of the unit until the end of the movement phase? if thats the case the ic would never be able to leave a unit or join a new one. it says they join a unit at the end of the movement phase. the ic may leave by moving to be out of coherency with the unit it is currently with. therefore they are not moving together so he may move his full speed.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The IC is part of the unit UNTIL the END of the movement phase.

He's not, actually.

Whether or not an IC has joined a unit is determined at the end of the movement phase, by checking at the end of the phase whether he is in coherency.

But an IC leaves a unit by moving out of coherency with it. So he has left the unit at the end of his movement, not at the end of the phase. Nowhere does it say to check this only at the end of the phase.

In this situation the IC can't move more than the unit because you have to move at the speed of the slowest model; a good example would be if an IC is attached to a unit that is in DT but the IC isn't. The unit rolls there DT and the IC can move out of coherency but not anymore inches than the unit rolled for the DT. The character was part of the unit so he moves as the unit did

Kharnflakes wrote:

2.since he is leaving unit A at the start of his movement he can move his full speed ("while an independant character is part of a unit he must obey the usual coherncy rules. the combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the the slowest model 'while they stay together' -big book pg 48 3ed bullet point)

.

this implies to me that as long as he is moving as part of the unit he has to move at that speed once he breaks off he can move his normal speed

Kharnflakes wrote:

Kharnflakes wrote:

2.since he is leaving unit A at the start of his movement he can move his full speed ("while an independant character is part of a unit he must obey the usual coherncy rules. the combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the the slowest model 'while they stay together' -big book pg 48 3ed bullet point)

.

this implies to me that as long as he is moving as part of the unit he has to move at that speed once he breaks off he can move his normal speed

No you declare the unit is moving.
You then break the independent character off at the same speed the unit is moving because he is still part of the unit at that part.
Then when the unit is done moving he has to be 2in away and is then considered to be broken off.

You are all over-complicating things. The Fact of the matter is that the IC must move to within 2" to join. Having a Unit move to within 2" does NOT cause the IC to join.

the ic needs to be within 2" of a unit at the end of their (plural) movement phase.

Kharnflakes wrote:the ic needs to be within 2" of a unit at the end of their (plural) movement phase.

Their is not plural. Their refers to the IC alone.

Their is not plural. Their refers to the IC alone.

Why the wording could mean either?

FlingitNow wrote:

Their is not plural. Their refers to the IC alone.

Why the wording could mean either?

Because it is talking about the IC?

Because it is talking about the IC?

Again why given the sentence mentions both the IC and the unit? Reading the entire paragraph certainly lends itself to the interpretation that their is pural as it goes on to state if he cannot join a unit for some reason he must stay out of 2" coherency which adds weight to the idea that a unit moving within 2" coherency would mean the Character has moved in a such a way as to be within 2" coherency with a unit and is therefore joined to the squad.

In order to join a unit, an independent character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase.

The sentence is referring to the IC when it says "Their". If it was referring to both of them, it would say "both of their".

The sentence is referring to the IC when it says "Their". If it was referring to both of them, it would say "both of their".

Why the both would be redundant as "their" can be plural. Both readings are totally legitimate readings of the english and the sentence makes perfect sense with both readings, sop at best it is unclear what is meant. hence why I'd suggest looking for context from the paragraph as a whole.

FlingitNow wrote:

The sentence is referring to the IC when it says "Their". If it was referring to both of them, it would say "both of their".

Why the both would be redundant as "their" can be plural. Both readings are totally legitimate readings of the english and the sentence makes perfect sense with both readings, sop at best it is unclear what is meant. hence why I'd suggest looking for context from the paragraph as a whole.

From the Context, it is clear it is singular. It's the "Characters" chapter after all.

From the Context, it is clear it is singular. It's the "Characters" chapter after all.

It is the characters chapter but it is talking about how a character joins a unit so you could argue that from eth context it is clear it is not plural.

I'm not saying your reading is wrong, I'm just saying that the written text can't be interpreted literally in 2 different ways.

Two issues.

1) It never gets that far, the IC can only move 6" this turn.

2) The rules do *not* say the IC must move into coherency to join a unit.

simply has to move so that he is within the 2"
coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of
their Movement phase.

He simply as to move so that he is in coherency at the end of the phase.
So, if he moves, and does so in a way that he is in coherency at the end of the phase... he has followed the rules.

By moving to where the unit is going, he is moving to be in coherency at the end of the phase.

All this aside, doesn't it just mean that the whole unit moved the same distance anyway (with Shrike just 2" ahead of them?)

Also, I thought Eldar players used to do something similar to this with their Farseer in a Jetbike council. Did this get fixed with 5th edition?