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http://www.collateralmurder.com

This is circulating in the news pretty widely now. Winning over the hearts and minds? I mean, we've known it for a long time that Americans have to recruit substandard troopers to maintain the war of terror (Friendly fire, civilian deaths, human rights violations etc). To believe anything else than that stuff like this happens on a daily basis would be delusional, but whenever the news actually surfaces the nature of this war is pretty painful to witness nevertheless.

To believe that stuff like this happens everday seem pretty delusional to me.

Certainly this is an example poor judgement and/or supervision and the servicemen involved should be disciplined and convicted as necessary. I won't comment further as I don't know the specifics of the case, like most I am only just broadly aware from the news of these events.

But to tar all US personnel with the same brush just seems a bit purient and uninformed to me. If we followed your example all Iraqis train handicap women to carry out suicide bombings?

Now I don't believe that statement either.

By all means discuss and inform us but this just seems like Flame-baiting to me.

By all means discuss and inform us but this just seems like Flame-baiting to me.

Not at all. I was direct because I'm not afraid to say the things that people pretty much already know. Do you know the accurate number of direct and indirect civilian casualties caused by either the trade embargo or the war in Iraq? The number was over one million already five years ago. Thirteen more casualties don't really weigh heavily on that scale. Since you're British I'm sure you're aware of how the British troopers describe their American allies?

I posted this because there were articles in the nationwide newspapers today with links to the site I posted and to youtube. My point was that this incident is particularly disturbing, even more so because the US troopers were never reprimanded in any way, and as far as the information currently stands, never will be. Personally, I'm not surprised that something like this happened. What surprised me was the manner of the people involved. Whenever sosiopaths get a licence to kill and sadism rears its head it becomes quite hard to glorify war or the so called heroes who fight in it.

It's 3 years old, was put to rest after an investigation in which no real wrong doing was found(if you're a reporter operating in a warzone and you're dumb enough to embed yourself with the insurgency, don't be surprised if something happens to you) and was "released" again via a site that won't identify its sources(but allows Al-Jazeera material to be posted) on the same day Al Qaeda claimed credit for an attack in Pakistan makes it incredibly suspect and reeks of an attempt to garner sympathy to their cause.

Everyone hollering about "KIDS DIED IN THE VAN THAT GOT FIRED ON" should shush because that van?
Not a marked ambulance, and was stopping to aid supposed insurgents.
Sucks to be them.

The attack helicopter pilots weren't disciplined because they were acting in support of US forces that were under heavy fire - they thought they were interdicting insurgent fighters after mistaking the journalists' slung cameras for slung weapons (whether the men traveling with the journalists were carrying REAL weapons is uncertain).

The attack helicopter pilots acted within the ROE (Rules Of Engagement), as they believed they were firing on armed fighters in defense of a US unit that was under attack. The chatter from the helicopter pilots is adolescent and repugnant at times, but if you put a bunch of twenty-somethings in a war zone and ask them to kill people, they're sure to say things that would make older and wiser people shake their heads in dismay...

It's a shore-'nuff tragedy, but not a war crime.

Not a marked ambulance, and was stopping to aid supposed insurgents.
Sucks to be them.

Except of course the supposed insurgents weren't insurgents and the so called battlefield is a city that the children lived in. The Iraqis didn't bring their kids to war, the war came to them.

Therion wrote:

Not a marked ambulance, and was stopping to aid supposed insurgents.
Sucks to be them.

Except of course the supposed insurgents weren't insurgents and the so called battlefield is a city that the children lived in. The Iraqis didn't bring their kids to war, the war came to them.

Sorry, you're right. Of course the "supposed insurgents" were wearing a TOTALLY different uniform than the "real" insur...oh.
Wait a minute.

And who the feth would stop in the middle of a combat zone that an Apache just lit up--with kids in the car no less--and expect nothing less than what happened?

Therion wrote:
Except of course the supposed insurgents weren't insurgents

That's an unsupported assumption. The investigation found automatic rifles and grenades at the scene.

Commissar Molotov wrote:

Therion wrote:
Except of course the supposed insurgents weren't insurgents

That's an unsupported assumption. The investigation found automatic rifles and grenades at the scene.

Of course, the US haters will just say "they were planted, just like the US troops in Afghanistan removed their bullets from three women they shot!!!!11!"

Which brings me to another statement:
Those 3 women were shot by German ISAF under NATO command. Not US forces.

Its bash America time guys you didnt know that? OBviously he is just wanting some fuel to tell his friends how stupid we Americans are, OH and brutal as well.

If the rest of the world policed it's own back yards you wouldn't have Americans doing it for you.

Why don't you armchair quarterbacking feths put your own troops on the ground in these hot spots and put a stop to the terrorists and tin-horn dictators? Get a little taste of what the real cost of not having real evil kicking in your front door during your afternoon tea?

You make me sick.

OBviously he is just wanting some fuel to tell his friends how stupid we Americans are

I don't need to tell that to my friends, the actions we see and hear about speak louder than any words could. What I wanted to see is how you guys justify stuff like this to yourselves so you can feel better about it all. I guess that "they're all against us" thing might help.

Why don't you armchair quarterbacking feths put your own troops on the ground in these hot spots

Err, the same organisation that you guys created after WWII decided that there's no grounds to put any troops in the 'hot spot' of Iraq and you guys went there anyway.

I'm curious what you think this war has achieved. What did it cost? A lot of money I guess since USA is simply printing cash to avoid sinking down the drain. In addition to the economic cost, some human lives on your side and a lot of lives on the other side. Does freedom and democracy now prevail in the middle-east? Do you think there are now more terrorists out there for our heads, or less?

Therion wrote:

Obviously he is just wanting some fuel to tell his friends how stupid we Americans are

I don't need to tell that to my friends, the actions we see and hear about speak louder than any words could. What I wanted to see is how you guys justify stuff like this to yourselves so you can feel better about yourselves. I guess that "They're all against us" thing might help.

You sound like someone who watches Al-Jazeera and considers it unbiased news, or that Palestinians are 110% correct in suicide bombing civilian areas.

Which leads to this:
You're not looking for any kind of justification or facts. You're just here to talk about how war is wrong, 9/11 was justified, yadda yadda yadda.

You're not looking for any kind of justification or facts. You're just here to talk about how war is wrong, 9/11 was justified, yadda yadda yadda.

It's curious you bring up justification. I'll ask you a question then: Was 9/11 justified? I don't think it was not one bit and just like you I can remember the exact moment I heard about it and rushed to the television. In my opinion there are few things as despicable as the killing of civilians in their home cities, and you guys in your myopic view might even be unaware of the fact that terrorists bomb also in Spain and Russia and elsewhere so the rest of us have an equally big motivation for safety. However, following the logic that you use for justifying the civilians deaths your army causes on a daily basis, I think the arabs would just tell you to have a look at their rules of engagement.

Therion wrote:

You're not looking for any kind of justification or facts. You're just here to talk about how war is wrong, 9/11 was justified, yadda yadda yadda.

It's curious you bring up justification when I never once mentioned it. I'll ask you a question then: Was 9/11 justified? I don't think it was not one bit and just like you I can remember the exact moment I heard about it and rushed to the television. In my opinion there are few things as despicable as the killing of civilians in their home cities, and you guys in your myopic view might even be unaware of the fact that terrorists bomb also in Spain and Russia and elsewhere so the rest of us have an equally big motivation for safety. However, following the logic that you use for justifying the civilians deaths your people cause on a daily basis, I think the Arabs can just tell you to have a look at their rules of engagement.

Read your own bloody statement, sweetheart.

Therion wrote:I don't need to tell that to my friends, the actions we see and hear about speak louder than any words could. What I wanted to see is how you guys justify stuff like this to yourselves so you can feel better about it all. I guess that "they're all against us" thing might help.

And actually, no. There's a huge difference between the "civilian" deaths in a warzone where an enemy who wears no uniform other than what the local population wears purposely uses them as human shields or as living bombs.

And as for their "rules of engagement"?
They have none. They prove that every day that they bomb the people they're supposedly trying to liberate.
Wake the feth up and use some common sense, or keep your mouth shut.

So aggressive. Fitting. I love your excuse by the way. Because terrorists fight in civilian clothing, all people who either are civilians or are dressed as civilians, can be killed.

So ignorant.
Fitting.

Therion wrote:http://www.collateralmurder.com

This is circulating in the news pretty widely now. Winning over the hearts and minds? I mean, we've known it for a long time that Americans have to recruit substandard troopers to maintain the war of terror (Friendly fire, civilian deaths, human rights violations etc). To believe anything else than that stuff like this happens on a daily basis would be delusional, but whenever the news actually surfaces the nature of this war is pretty painful to witness nevertheless.

Poor attempt at trolling.

Kanluwen wrote:So ignorant.
Fitting.

I sincerely doubt you even know what the word means or how on earth it could possibly apply to me, but feel free to explain yourself.

Therion wrote:I love your excuse by the way. Because terrorists fight in civilian clothing, all people who either are civilians or are dressed as civilians, can be killed.

I didn't say that, now did I?

It's going to happen one way or another due to the nature of this form of warfare. There is no way to get clean kills, and they damned well know it and exploit it for public opinion.

They can send a group of unarmed insurgents into the middle of a firefight, and voila. "US FORCES KILL CIVILIANS!"

Therion wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:So ignorant.
Fitting.

I sincerely doubt you even know what the word means or how on earth it could possibly apply to me, but feel free to explain yourself.

Nah he's spot on.

*sigh*

Again - it's a tragedy, but not a crime.

They can send a group of unarmed insurgents into the middle of a firefight, and voila. "US FORCES KILL CIVILIANS!"

What you said about the nature of the war made a lot of sense and I agreed with it untill this. If you had said they force unarmed civilians into firefights for collateral damage propaganda reasons I might believe you, but you're actually saying they send groups of unarmed trained terrorists out there in the open to firefights to die without ever firing a shot? I know that you know how ridiculous that sounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Again - it's a tragedy, but not a crime.

Well, there's a longstanding academic debate whether international law is law at all because it cannot truly be enforced, so words like crime in relation to combat are subjective at best. It's a crime if the powers that be say it is, and in relation to war the winning side decides what constituted crimes and what didn't. It's been like this in every war so far and I doubt it's going to change.

Therion wrote:
Well, there's a longstanding academic debate whether international law is law at all because it cannot truly be enforced, so words like crime in relation to combat are subjective at best.

Ditto with your inflammatory trolling nonsense.

"I mean, we've known it for a long time that Americans have to recruit substandard troopers to maintain the war of terror (Friendly fire, civilian deaths, human rights violations etc). To believe anything else than that stuff like this happens on a daily basis would be delusional, but whenever the news actually surfaces the nature of this war is pretty painful to witness nevertheless."

Talk about ignorance and idiocy.

Um, I'm gonna step in and stick up for the American servicemen involved in this incident: I would have capped those people too. They looked dodgy - at one point, a guy pops his head around a wall holding what looks like an RPG. I would not have hung around to find out that it was a camera.
Servicemen are not known for their sensitivity, nor should they be - I wouldn't want a bunch of wimps fighting my country's wars for me. They are there to kill people, pure and simple. That said, they should not be above criticism and should abide by all relevant rules and laws. Which it appears they did in this case.
However certain posters here are playing into the OPs hands with their attitudes - don't you guys realise that Europeans have massive problems with the 'feth you - we're Americans/Brits, and we can do what we want!' attitude. That's why they historically hate US, and now they're starting on YOU.

Anyway - Threadclock:

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Talk about ignorance and idiocy.

On which parts? If you want to get into it I think we can dig up quite a few facts of the types of recruitment troubles the US army has been in, and what kind of educational and cultural backgrounds the standard soldier has in your country. Secondly, the closest US ally in warzones, the British, have percentually suffered most of their casualties due to friendly fire. The testimonials I've read depict a grim image indeed of the anarchy that the so called coalition has been in. Thirdly, we're all well aware of the fact that USA didn't follow the decision of the UN security council and invaded a sovereign country and has been responsible for the deaths of thousands of civilians and proven human rights violations, for example the infamous prison torture and humiliation etc. I don't make baseless claims at all, and I'm not trolling. If I was, you could hardly say I did a poor attempt at it though, considering five guys reply in less than a minute to everything I write.

I'll edit this in. I find it interesting but also sad that each time someone criticises one party, the supporters of that party immediately assume that the critic condones or in some way supports the actions of the other party. This isn't the case, and the actions of the terrorists and insurgents deserve no debate whatsoever.

Therion wrote:

Talk about ignorance and idiocy.

On which parts?

All of 'em.

I don't make baseless claims at all, and I'm not trolling. If I was, you could hardly say I did a poor attempt at it though, considering five guys reply in less than a minute to everything I write.

You did nothing but make baseless claims without supporting anything, numbnuts. You knowingly took a dump to fulfill your personal vendetta haterade campaign against US soldiers and their allies.

Horrible troll.

I was wondering when this was going to happen. People need to realize that STOP THE FETHING PRESSES, WAR IS BAD, AND PEOPLE DIE IN THEM. Thats war. When you are fighting an enemy who hides amongst the population, you are going to see civilian casualties. I'm not going to say the two reporters deserved it, but at the same time, rushing to the scene of a battle againt non-uniformed insurgents without identifying yourself is a really stupid idea.

Therion, you should keep in mind that American rules of engagement are the strictest they have ever been, in any war. Our own people are put at risk on a daily basis because of how concerned we are with controlling civilian casualties. We can't use our air support or other heavy firepower except in the direst of circumstances. And how dare you accuse our military of being composed of "substandard" people? What in hell do you know about warfare? You like to sit back and accuse us of being thugs for killing civilians by accident, but you don't know what its like to be on the ground. Those guys there are trying to keep themselves and their friends alive, and they never know when what looks like a civilian is going to pull out an AK and start shooting.

So instead of accusing our soldiers of being evil thugs, maybe you should take a look at the insurgents who use civilians as cover and who are responsible for the vast majority of civilian deaths to begin with.

TL;DR look, yet another european who stereotypes americans and thinks he knows everything.

Therion wrote:

They can send a group of unarmed insurgents into the middle of a firefight, and voila. "US FORCES KILL CIVILIANS!"

What you said about the nature of the war made a lot of sense and I agreed with it untill this. If you had said they force unarmed civilians into firefights for collateral damage propaganda reasons I might believe you, but you're actually saying they send groups of unarmed trained terrorists out there in the open to firefights to die without ever firing a shot? I know that you know how ridiculous that sounds.

Except it's perfectly within Al Qaeda's modus operandi, given that they don't give any more training than which way to point the gun or "press this button to make yourself go boom". This is a group that has been known to send "fake" suicide bombers(men/women wearing what appear to be bomb vests) into the middle of crowded areas to force evacuations--and then they bomb the evacuatees.
Not so ridiculous then now is it?

It's pretty cut and dry to me. The Helicopter crew opened fire on a group of civilians with virtually no credible indication of any weapons. They then fired again on an unmarked van that was picking up the bodies again with no indication of any threat.

I certainly don't believe all US soldiers are evil scum murderers and certainly wouldn't dream of using this to make a cheap point about the war or US armed forces in general, of whom I'm certain the vast majority are brave and honorable people.

But I think it's fecking disgraceful that this particular incident was whitewashed and I don't think its unreasonable to wonder if other such incidents have been hushed up. I would expect a court marshal for all concerned at the very least.

I actually quite shocked many here are so nonchalant about this.