Are Eldar still Dangerous???

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**radiohazard**

I've been playing 40K since Rogue Trader and since then I have come to know the Eldar as my most lethal adversary.

I can remember playing against them every weekend and never ever being able to beat them. Thats right - I have NEVER beaten an Eldar Army.

In 2nd ed they were a top army and the same went for 3rd and 4th ed, but what about 5th???

I haven't played against them yet and I rarely ever see any Eldar players in any of the Local Gaming groups I play in, so I am thinking of starting an army of them, but I need to know:

Are Eldar still as dangerous as they were back in previous editions ???

How well has the army translated from 4th to 5th ed ???

Are they any good ???

What are the popular build types (Mechdar, Aspect Army, Elfzilla) ???

**L0rdF1end**

Seer Council on Bikes with a Farseer is deadly. I know that much.

**radiohazard**

That seems expensive.

**Clthomps**

Come to the dark side! even 12 years on the current DE codex is still competitive/

**radiohazard**

I had a DE army, but sold it as I hated the models and got bored of it.

I do agree with you however that they are still competitive. Their codex, even though it has no fluff, is one of the most broken out there.

**Ail-Shan**

Well, I've been successful with the Space Elves (only losing the past 2 tournaments to 1 guy due to bad luck mostly), and even so I'm running what people tend to consider "uncompetitive."

But yes, at least according to my friends Eldar are broken beyond reason (not true at all but they are still competitive). Being able to bring massed high S fire and squads of specific weapon types (pweapons, fusion guns, bolter equivalents, etc.) they can bring on a lot of hurt.

**radiohazard**

Mass high Str firepower eh???

What list are you running Ail-Shan???

**rzsanguine**

The are some common Eldar list in the Army list forum. Bladestorming DA are good deal even if its only 18". I have found my fire prisms to be only so so. My dark reapers killed more things then the three prism combined.

**starbomber109**

My friend plays Eldar. His current army list has lost to only two armies with T4 and 3+ saves.

I'm thinking of starting eldar, but the eldar players discourage me from this rash course of action.

**Exarch_Nektel**

Eldar are still quite deadly.

I play an eldar synergy list (or i try to at least), and I can tell you that the avatar causes every one of my opponents a big, big headache.

**Sanctjud**

Eldar can win, on the crazy competitive side of things there seems only to be less than a handful of lists that make the cut, and even then they are pretty fragile for the points.

The council is decent, but the problem is: it relies on fortune too much.
As soon as it is blocked the Death Star becomes a Lame Star...

Basically Mechdar is the most widely known competitive Eldar list, it has the ability to deliver specialists where they need to be, the only issue then is player skill to judge when is a good time to spring the trap, when to approach/retreat, basically the timing of commitment is the most important thing as it is still not a forgiving list as competitive as it is.

**don_mondo**

Any army can be dangerous in the hands of a good player.

**Sanctjud**

But some are more forgiving when things don't work out the way a good player wants it to.

**wuestenfux**

Well, I play Eldar since the 3rd ed.
They are deadly no matter what.
I started with an Alaitoc force that everybody hated.
Then I moved to mech Eldar and I still play that way.

**Sanctjud**

Bah, you moved to mech Eldar when the Alaitoc disruption table was buried six feet under

**radiohazard**

From what i've read here: http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/40k-finished-tacticas/86348-new-eldar-tactica.html and on Dakka and numerous other places, I think I've come up with a list of effective units I want to try out:

Maugan Ra.
This guy is just cheese. My favourite Eldar model too.

Pathfinders.
A unit of 5 costs 120 pts and for that you get a unit that can camp on a objective (in cover of course), have an uber cover save and be able to take rending shots on a 5+.

Dire Avengers in a Wave Serpent.
The backbone to most Eldar Armies. Can put out a lot of shots and come with a decent Tank.

Dark Reapers.
My all-time favourite (and most hated when on the opposing side) Eldar Unit. I'm thinking of placing Maugan Ra with them to create the UBER Firebase of Doom.

Fire Prism.
I'll take two of these and be happy aboot it. The "intensify forward firepower" rules are just awesome.

I think I have enough anti-infantry, but what to take for anti-tank???

Fire Dragons???
I recognise the power of these guys, but i've also heard that their Wave Serpent is also the first to get shot down. Should I really invest points into something that isn't going to do it's job???

**Sanctjud**

@radiohazard:
Maugan Ra is decent, but still expensive and offers little to the aspect he is in charge of.
Cheese? He is not.

Pathfinders are cool and were good, but with so many fast flamers/pod flamer/new cover ignoring weapons/powers...they have dulled.

DA/WS yes decent, WS is still a bit overcosted IMO.

Reapers...the suck. Cover everywhere, static, Dawn of war, Low number, Still T3 w/power armor.

Prism is ok, but still just one gun and generally a "stun and forget" issue with them.

Dragons are good, the only issue is the commitment of only one shot...so it has to count...

Everything can die, so it shouldn't discourage you from taking something because there is the likely hood of it happening IMO. Dragons are on a 'need' basis IMO.

**incarna**

For about ten years now Eldar have been my primary army. I regularly do very well in the tournament scene and I recently won best overall at a tournament here in Western PA (Though, I will admit, I was second in battle points to a long time Blood Angels player who I edged out via paint score).

Eldar are still competitive though their codex is somewhat dated. The Eldar army is starting to become cookie cutter as the context of 40k only allows for about two different competitive Eldar builds. What’s been bugging me lately isn’t an inability to compete (they certainly can) but that in order to compete you are almost forced to take certain units – sear council in one form or another is definitely a popular one, as are fire dragons in wave serpents. Outside that “core”, Eldar players are beginning to struggle to compete with the enriching variety present in most other armies.

I would gladly give up my “alpha” unit of warlocks + fortunseer if it meant the rest of my army was more viable.

radiohazard wrote:From what i've read here: http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/40k-finished-tacticas/86348-new-eldar-tactica.html and on Dakka and numerous other places, I think I've come up with a list of effective units I want to try out:

Maugan Ra.
This guy is just cheese. My favourite Eldar model too.

Maugan Ra is ok. Much of the Eldar’s competitive edge lies in mobility and Mr. Ra tends to be static unless mounted and used as a CC powerhouse… which isn’t that good compared to other close combat powerhouses out there.

radiohazard wrote:Pathfinders.
A unit of 5 costs 120 pts and for that you get a unit that can camp on a objective (in cover of course), have an uber cover save and be able to take rending shots on a 5+.

Pathfinders are not good for their points. Their 2+ cover save makes them appealing but they fold like a whet napkin against opponents who understand how to deal with them. A drop-pod + flamer is one common way. Simply engaging them in CC is another. The “super” rending seems good too until you’re faced with the increasingly mechanized metagame.

radiohazard wrote:Dire Avengers in a Wave Serpent.
The backbone to most Eldar Armies. Can put out a lot of shots and come with a decent Tank.

Dire Avengers in Wave serpents are excellent. What I find MOST valuable is that they tend to inflict SO many wounds that your opponent is forced to allocate wounds to special weapons/seargants/etc.

radiohazard wrote:Dark Reapers.
My all-time favourite (and most hated when on the opposing side) Eldar Unit. I'm thinking of placing Maugan Ra with them to create the UBER Firebase of Doom.

Dark Reapers are, like Mr. Ra, too static. Pound for point Dire Avengers and Fire Dragons perform better. That AP3 sounds awesome until, again, you’re caught up in a mechanized meta game.

radiohazard wrote:Fire Prism.
I'll take two of these and be happy aboot it. The "intensify forward firepower" rules are just awesome.

Fire Prisms are an amazing “bridge” unit. If you find yourself facing hoard, you have a pie-plate. If you find yourself facing mechanized, you have yourself nice ranged anti-AV. If you find yourself facing MEQ, link to prisms and watch squad after squad vanish. Always take 2+ or none at all.

radiohazard wrote:I think I have enough anti-infantry, but what to take for anti-tank???

Fire Dragons???
I recognise the power of these guys, but i've also heard that their Wave Serpent is also the first to get shot down. Should I really invest points into something that isn't going to do it's job???

Fire Dragons are amazing and they will almost certainly be nerfed in the next codex. Take 2 squads mounted in Wave Serpents. Yes they sometimes get shot down but that’s 40k. They are FAR too good NOT to take.

Lastly ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS take spirit stones on your Wave Serpents.

**radiohazard**

Thanks Incarna, that is top advice.

What about War Walkers to fill that 3rd HS slot???

I heard they are a bit good.

What HQ would you recommend???

Avatar of Khaine???

**mikeyboyj**

Sanctjud has the right idea imo

Pathfinders seem great on paper, but as soon as your regular opponents figure out heavy flamers kill them on a 2+ without even rolling to hit (cursed land speeders), it suddenly seems futile spending 24 points a model on them.

I love reapers but only really worth it if your playing non-mech marines and you dont ussually play with loads of area terrain. Warwalkers with 2 scatterlasers each will do a better job killing troops, will be about same points wise, have a better survivability and can take out transports too. (imo - no flaming please :0 )

If you're thinking anti tank, I think Wraithlords can be effective. If any tank goes near them they'll hammer it, and arm with lance and Missile launcher and it has 2 BS4 shots at good range. The real advantage is it takes a lot of focussed fire to take them down. 3 wounds at T8 is not easy.

I love phoenix lords (they were being released when I first got into the hobby) but are very pricey without an inv save. As far as HQ goes I love avatars but imo a Farseer is a must. Fortune, Doom and Guide are awesome.

Dire Avengers are cool - 4 points more than guardians for extra armor, BS, WS, range (maybe most importantly), LD, I, and Exarch option. crazy really

**incarna**

radiohazard wrote:Thanks Incarna, that is top advice.

What about War Walkers to fill that 3rd HS slot???

I heard they are a bit good.

What HQ would you recommend???

Avatar of Khaine???

Farseer/Eldrad is almost ALWAYS the best HQ – the psychic powers and anti-psychic wargeer is a PROFUND force multiplier. Fortune is always a must as opponents will quickly realize that the Farseer is a linchpin unit and try to bring it down. Avatar’s are actually quite a bargain for their points but again tend to be too static for most competitive Eldar armies. I hope they get a some tweaking next codex.

I find War Walkers are only good when the army is built around 3 squads of 3 scatter laser walkers – in which case they are fricken AMAZING. If you want to use all 3 Heavy slots, either take 3 War Walkers or 3 Fire prisms.

**Ail-Shan**

Well...that was a lot of replies.

Anyway my list is as follows (1850):

Eldrad with 5 warlocks (2 destructor, 2 embolden) in a falcon with holo-fields, shuricannon and stones
Fuegan in a falcon with holo-fields, shuricannon and stones
5 fire dragons in a falcon with holo-fields, shuricannon and stones
10 avengers in a wave serpent with EML and stones
2x 10 guardians with scatter laser and embolden warlock
7 hawks with exarch with sunrifle, intercept and skyleap

Though not quite as massed in high S firepower as my first post suggested, I've found this to be quite successful (So far only lost to 1 guy, and both times barely. In the second mission it was VPs based on killing entire units, and I was down by 19 at the end). Fuegan, despite his lack of invulnerable save has been quite powerful and extremely useful.

In response to Mikey: Yes PLs are pricey, but to kill them your opponent usually has to dedicate anti-tank fire, and if you have them in cover they certainly don't die easy (especially when fortuned). Also I agree that farseers are at the moment a near must, not only for the re-roll powers (fortune, guide and doom) but also for the psychic defense.

**radiohazard**

3 Fire Prisms???

Isn't the third redundant or is it a case of more is better???

And lastly:

How many DA/Wave Serpent squads should I have in 1500 pts and what is in the army to grab objectives???

**Sanctjud**

Hmmm...

2 Squads of DA in Serpent.
1 Squad of Storm with triple flame template in Serpent.

I think that's the minimum for a Mechdar list.
Get a Dragon Serpent, Council Serpent...then hvies.

**radiohazard**

TY guys.

I'll go rustle me up an army list.

**Shas'O Dorian**

Eldar are still very competitive. However I have never played against what I would call a "good" eldar player. usually my opponent has only 1 squad for every role & I just disect the army.

I play Tau so Banshees / scorpions first. Next comes long range to save my tanks (Reapers / their armor). Usually the avatar is looking close & scary by now. Since my opponents tend to take only 1 squad for each specialized role, once I kill that squad his whole battle plan is ruined.

**mikeyboyj**

Ail-Shan wrote:In response to Mikey: Yes PLs are pricey, but to kill them your opponent usually has to dedicate anti-tank fire, and if you have them in cover they certainly don't die easy (especially when fortuned).

True but I find its ussually power weapons/fists that does them. T4 with no inv means when they're in combat they're not too hard to kill. But this may be because I like Karandras and Jain Zar the most. Would be less of an issue with Maugan

**Ail-Shan**

Well you can also bring in another unit into the assault, tying up the model with pfist/pweapon to keep the lord safe. And even so most of those weapons have only 2-3 attacks on the defense, which means about 1 hit and maybe 1 wound, so it still takes a lot to do them in (Pklaw nobz do very well at it though).

**incarna**

radiohazard wrote:3 Fire Prisms???

Isn't the third redundant or is it a case of more is better???

And lastly:

How many DA/Wave Serpent squads should I have in 1500 pts and what is in the army to grab objectives???

With everything, it depends on your list and if you have the spare points. The reason a 3rd Fire Prism is nice is because it’s much more challenging for your opponent to stun 2 Prisms as opposed to 1. This keeps the linked fire handy. In the instances where all 3 prisms are available a Str 7 AP2 pie plate makes terminators and plague marines vanish.

In 1500, 2 dire avenger wave serpents should be good. You can grab objectives by simply loading the avengers back into the transport and trucking over to the objective you need to grab. I like to include a 10-man squad of guardian defenders who spend most of their time going to ground while in cover to camp objectives.

**radiohazard**

Well this is my first ever Eldar list, so be lenient if I've made any errors:

Eldrad Ulthran = 210

5 Fire Dragons = 233
Exarch, Tank Hunters, Wave Serpent With TL Shuriken Cannon And Spirit Stones.

5 Fire Dragons = 233
Exarch, Tank Hunters, Wave Serpent With TL Shuriken Cannon And Spirit Stones.

10 Dire Avengers = 297
Exarch, 2 Shuriken Catapults, Bladestorm, Wave Serpent With TL Bright Lance And Spirit Stones.

10 Dire Avengers = 297
Exarch, 2 Shuriken Catapults, Bladestorm, Wave Serpent With TL Bright Lance And Spirit Stones.

Fire Prism = 115

Fire Prism = 115