Are Eldar still Dangerous???

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**Sanctjud**

Is caps really needed?

Prisms: no spirit stones?
Serpants: i'm meh on BL's and the lack of scatter lasers is upsetting IMO.
Dragons don't need the exarch or tank hunters...hell you could have 2 more dragons almost.

**radiohazard**

Sorry for the caps, it was a cut and paste job.

Will edit in a mo.

Seriously, BLs on Wave Serpants are bad???

Where is the ranged anti Tank coming from???

Surely two Fire-Prisms aren't enough to deal with todays Mech Meta.

I agree on the lack of scatter lasers, but you think that the Exarch and TH isn't needed???

**starbomber109**

Better build for dragons is an exarch with fire-pike and Crack Shot, then you have a 9" cover-ignore melta shot. Has saved my friend's eldar from many a smoked raider and KFF wagon rush.

**Sanctjud**

I didn't say BLs are bad... they are just meh. They are pricey and you already have Dragons.
True you need more transport poppers but that's where weight of str 6 comes from...BLs are quite disappointing IMO.

**radiohazard**

Sanctjud wrote:I didn't say BLs are bad... they are just meh. They are pricey and you already have Dragons.
True you need more transport poppers but that's where weight of str 6 comes from...BLs are quite disappointing IMO.

Hmmm, I can see where the dual rolls or the scatter laser may help.

**incarna**

Bright Lances are not an efficient use of points. For AV 12+ you have fire dragons. For AV11/10 Str6 – scatter lasers and/or shuriken cannons will do you just fine. Coupled with your fire prisms, you’re anti-AV is pretty well balanced. Other than that, the one hole I see in your army is a role for your HQ.

**radiohazard**

incarna wrote:Bright Lances are not an efficient use of points. For AV 12+ you have fire dragons. For AV11/10 Str6 – scatter lasers and/or shuriken cannons will do you just fine. Coupled with your fire prisms, you’re anti-AV is pretty well balanced. Other than that, the one hole I see in your army is a role for your HQ.

I just did some math hammer and you are right so I've done a bit of modding:

Eldrad Ulthran = 210

5 Fire Dragons = 241
Exarch, Firepike, Wave Serpent With TL Scatter Laser And Spirit Stones.

5 Fire Dragons = 241
Exarch, Firepike, Wave Serpent With TL Scatter Laser And Spirit Stones.

10 Dire Avengers = 277
Exarch, 2 Shuriken Catapults, Bladestorm, Wave Serpent With TL Scatter Laser And Spirit Stones.

10 Dire Avengers = 277
Exarch, 2 Shuriken Catapults, Bladestorm, Wave Serpent With TL Scatter Laser And Spirit Stones.

Fire Prism = 125
Spirit Stones

Fire Prism = 125
Spirit Stones

1496/1500

Now, if I don't take Eldrad as my HQ, who do I take?

I was going to put him with one of the squads and just move him up the field while he supported the army with his spells.

Fuegan???

He's pretty beefy and might make a unit think twice about charging.

**incarna**

Army list looks pretty decent. I have my nit-picks but I think you’re next step is to run the list and see how it plays. Make adjustments after you’ve gotten some experience.

**wuestenfux**

Sanctjud wrote:Bah, you moved to mech Eldar when the Alaitoc disruption table was buried six feet under

The disruption table was too good not to use.
I barely lost a game; similar with mech Eldar afterwards.

**JohnHwangDD**

Eldar are still designed around 4E, rather than 5E, so they're now sorely lacking in the "vertical game" compared to modern 5E armies. They're no longer especially Fast compared to IG or BA, and their assault ability has been long passed by CSM, SW, and now BA.

It's kind of a low time for the pointy ears in the pointy hats.

**radiohazard**

I'm still thinking that I don't have the correct HQ choice for my list.

If I remove Eldrad and the two Firepikes and have 230 pts for a HQ.

Anyone got any ideas???

**Sanctjud**

Eldrad
or
2 Farseers with fortune and RAWarding
or
Eldrad

**radiohazard**

So basically - Stick with Eldrad lol.

**akaean**

Eldrad doesn't really offer much without a seer council to stomp with, or an avatar and wraith lords to keep alive with fortune.

For about the same points, you could take a doom seer with both runes, and an autarch with a fusion gun, and possibly some CC upgrades if you like. Then you can put him in a squad of avengers with a shimmer shield and defend... or something like that for some light melee support.

the main reason for taking an Autarch is master strategist which gives an optional +1 to reserve rolls, which is awesome for reserving everything if the need arises. That ability will probably give you more tactical flexibility than Eldrad offers with the type of list you are planning on running

**Sanctjud**

I don't know, I want to keep off the table, not get on earlier generally...that's why Autarchs are poo IMO.

Reserves and coming on early to by pass first turn shooting is nice, but it's best at higher points where more things can take advantedge of it....not at lower points.

**radiohazard**

You can always choose not to use the +1 to reserves according to the faq.

Its times like these I wish we could have three HQ choices.

I gave 2 Autarchs a thought to bolster my DA squads and play the army as an ambush style force, but then I had the little voice in my head tell me that I need a Farseer.

This is the bit where some testing will come in handy I suppose.

**Ail-Shan**

It seems really difficult to play Eldar without Farseers as their powers (and psychic defense) is just far too useful to pass up, especially considering the relative mediocrity that is the autarch.

**cosmid**

incarna wrote:
In the instances where all 3 prisms are available a Str 7 AP2 pie plate makes terminators and plague marines vanish.

I wonder how the mathhammer would work out on 1 twinlinked bs4 str7 ap2 large blast vs 3 bs4 str9 ap2 small blasts on a squad of plague marines or terminators. Quite possibly the unit size would be a critical factor there.

It's sure to be complicated.

**radiohazard**

Posted new lists here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/288703.page

Now without math mistakes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

cosmid wrote:
incarna wrote:
In the instances where all 3 prisms are available a Str 7 AP2 pie plate makes terminators and plague marines vanish.

I wonder how the mathhammer would work out on 1 twinlinked bs4 str7 ap2 large blast vs 3 bs4 str9 ap2 small blasts on a squad of plague marines or terminators. Quite possibly the unit size would be a critical factor there.

It's sure to be complicated.

Doesn't matter with the terminators as most of the time they all have th/ss anyway.

Plague Marines will still die to two on the large pie.

**wuestenfux**

There are basically three weaknesses of Eldar armies in the 5th ed.

1. Nerfing of skimmers.
2. Low toughness of troops.
3. Variable game length.

**puma713**

Usually I don't get wrapped up in threads like these, because I feel that everyone has a different playstyle, a different way to command their army and a different take on what is useful and what isn't. I still believe this. I have been playing Eldar since you built lists in the Rulebook - granted, the army has changed a lot since then, because the rules and the game has changed around them. However, I do feel that I have to step in and defend my Dark Reapers a bit.

Generally, I take two units of them, each at 197 points. Why do I do this? Because they're an amazing firebase. First of all, I lose the Tempest Launcher. 5 Reapers, one that is an Exarch with Crack Shot. So, while my Dragons, Avengers and Harlequins (or Banshees with Eldrad attached) and Avatar are pushing their way forward, the Reapers are laying low their Power-armored defenses. And for those saying that they're static - it's true. However, if you have the rest of the army bearing down on you, Reapers are generally not that great of a concern. It's like a rhino. You don't want to waste fire shooting at it when there are more important things to focus on, but you know if you don't drop it, it's going to bring something painful. Reapers are similar.

So, my squads bring 10 shots at Str 5 AP3. They hit on 2's and 3's. The 2's-to-hit are the Exarch. If his hit, he gets to re-roll wound and he ignores cover. Now, think about that for a second. Even just for two shots. Bikers (Biker Nobs), turbo-boosting jetbikes, venomthropes, KFF, Pathfinders, anything that relies on cover. Daemon Princes don't last a turn. And not entirely because of Crack Shot, but because of the other 8 shots that are coming along with it. Now, two units of those and you have a firebase that can mow down a unit of marines, a unit of bikers, a unit of jetbikes, etc. etc.

Now, I'm not going to go off and tell you to include Reapers in your list. I have a list built with them in it. A falcon also sits back and floats 6" firing a Bright Lance, Pulse Laser and Shuriken Cannon. It also has 5 dragons in it in case I have some drop pods trying to eat my falcon or my reapers. If I'm not facing anything with speed or with the ability to deep strike, I disembark my dragons and, when my first unit of dragons alpha strike, I send their serpent back to get the second squad. It works. However, as I said at the beginning of my post, I won't tell you how to use your list and I certainly won't tell you to use mine. But, Eldar are deadly and anything in that codex can be used with the proper battle plan built around it.

That's just the thing about Eldar. They're precise. They're not like marines that can fulfill every role. Eldar have roles for their specific FOC slots and the units that fill them. If your dragons get shot down and don't make it to that Land Raider, then they've failed their mission and may have cost you the game, depending on the objectives. Which is why I use Eldrad to Fortune the Dragons' Wave Serpent and his own Wave Serpent just before they turbo-boost + star engines into my opponent's deployment Turn 1.

**Mathais**

they are definitely still good, i play them and i NEVER loose even to the newest codex's like tyranids and blood angels.

**Sanctjud**

@Mathais:
Which is great and all, but do you have anything specifically to add?

What about the Eldar is pulling through?
Meching up? Good judge in when to commit?

**DAaddict**

Save some points and lose the bright lances for cannons or scatter lasers. S6 and a lot of them are your friend.

I would suggest adding defend to your squad with Eldrad. Makes it almost a CC unit. Add the shimmershield and it is a poor-man's seer council. 5+ invulnerables, -1 attacks for opponent and rerolls from Fortune, very good.

I assume we are shooting for 1500. Options to think about would be war walkers or vypers instead of prisms .
Massed S6 shots are the eldar friend. Also one or two serpents with star engines for late game objective steals/contests.

**radiohazard**

Sanctjud wrote:@Mathais:
Which is great and all, but do you have anything specifically to add?

What about the Eldar is pulling through?
Meching up? Good judge in when to commit?

Thats the problem, i've been having.

When to commit is the most difficult thing to do as an eldar player.

**Thunderfrog**

Eldrad Ulthran = 210

5 Fire Dragons = 233

Exarch, Tank Hunters, Wave Serpent With TL Shuriken Cannon And Spirit Stones.

5 Fire Dragons = 233
Exarch, Tank Hunters, Wave Serpent With TL Shuriken Cannon And Spirit Stones.

10 Dire Avengers = 297
Exarch, 2 Shuriken Catapults, Bladestorm, Wave Serpent With TL Bright Lance And Spirit Stones.

10 Dire Avengers = 297
Exarch, 2 Shuriken Catapults, Bladestorm, Wave Serpent With TL Bright Lance And Spirit Stones.

Fire Prism = 115

Fire Prism = 115

Hey man, nice list. Very simple and direct, however, lemme suggest...

Fire Dragons...

Don't need the exarch. The Firepike and flamer are nice on paper, but in the case of the former your only making one shot. In the case of the latter, you're normally dead after you pop them out of the serpent to kill a vehicle anyways. 1 round of shooting 1 exarch at an increased WS isnt worth his price, even with tank hunter. 5 of those guys firing away will generally kill a vehicle. That should save a good chunk of points on two exarchs and tank huntersx2.

Wave Serpents...

TL Bright Lance at BS 3 in todays Coverhammer isn't advisable. It makes those guys way more expensive than what they should be, and mixes their bag too much. (And they're already overpriced, both Bright Lances and Serpents.)

Use the TL Shuriken Cannon and the 10pt Shuriken Cannon on the bottom of the model. It gives you a volley of Str 6 shots to either pepper and glance lower armor vehicles with 10 armor or mow down a nearby unit that could assault or charge your precious dragons after the fact. Generally if assaulted, the Dragons will die. Use the volley of Str 6 shots as revenge before skimming away.

With your savings from the Bright Lances and exarchs (119 points) you can field a variety of options.

1) A squad of 5 pathfinders. (This is actually going to put you at 1501. In friendly games, they likely wont care.)
2) Another Generic Farseer with Spirit Stones, Doom, and Guide. Attach him to a squad of your DA's to force. (Also 1501..)
3) 3 Warlocks for Eldrad. (1 with enhance, 2 with Destructor, all three with Singing Spears = 1500)
4) 1 Wraithlord to keep next to Eldrad with dual flamers and a brightlance. (At BS 4, not 3.) Or with a Sword and a Scatter Laser for more anti MEQ.

Anyways.. thats just a few options.

Good Luck.

**radiohazard**

Just thought I'd mention that I did post a newer list here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/288703.page

**WarWizard91**

For the Dire Avengers Exarch is the double shuriken better or is the shimmer shield?

**Thunderfrog**

Depends.

The double shuriken is nice if your attacking and getting away in a serpent. But the shimmer shield sure helps if your guys get charged after they fire or while on an objective.