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What happens?


Clay

xD

I already Answered you Clay!

What happens is that once one of the effects causes the dice to be re-rolled, the 2nd effect cannot now re-roll it again.

Ok, here's the real question:

Bjorn lets SW reroll their dice to go first.

Dark Eldar Nightmare Doll can make the opponent reroll their dice to go first.


SW roll a 6. DE roll a 5.

DE says "reroll your 6." They're forced to. SW say "I can reroll." But you can't reroll a reroll right?

What about if the SW reroll rolls a 5 and ties the DE? Do you now reroll rerolls?

What if the DE use the nightmare doll and the SW rerolls into a tie? Can the powers be used again?

Some good questions. I would say that each instance to roll to pick deployment need to be considered an individual event. Otherwise two ties would break the game and not allow you to 'reroll the reroll'

Second point is a bit trickier. Not sure if there is a R.A.W. basis for it but I would be inclined to allow the doll or Bjorn to be used on each 'event' of the roll to choose deployment.

AHA!

I'm converting Dakka to the MELON HAT CAT AVATAR movement....

If anyone else wants to join....http://www.flickr.com/photos/loplop/galleries/72157622313153111/

At no poin t do you "reroll" when you roll off - you are told to "roll again" instead.

As you are "rolling again" each roll is independent, and any abiltiy to reroll this roll would activate again, however you still cannot reroll that roll - so if DE force you to reroll, Bjorn cannot reroll that result.

So you are saying there is a difference between "Roll again" and "re-roll"? You might want to look in a dictionary of the English language...

re- 
a prefix, occurring originally in loanwords from Latin, used with the meaning “again” or “again and again” to indicate repetition; refurbish; retype; retrace; revert.

nosferatu1001 wrote:At no poin t do you "reroll" when you roll off - you are told to "roll again" instead.

As you are "rolling again" each roll is independent, and any abiltiy to reroll this roll would activate again, however you still cannot reroll that roll - so if DE force you to reroll, Bjorn cannot reroll that result.

Quoting from my codex, ".....may force his opponent to re-roll the dice....."

That's pretty specific to re-rolling, not rolling again. And what about the rest?

Okay so I think the conclusion is then....

-Bjorn and the Nightmare Doll's abilities can be used for each discrete 'roll off'

-If you reroll the dice with one, it cannot be rolled again by the other.

-If the re-roll results in a tie, then start a new discrete roll off event.

Statistically having both pieces of wargear active is no different than just taking the first roll because no matter what you are going to reroll the dice (like Fateweaver vs Null Zone)

Basically it comes down to this.


If the Space Wolf player rolls higher on the initial roll, then the Nightmare Doll kicks in, and Bjorn's ability is wasted. If the Dark Eldar player rolls higher, and Bjorn uses his ability, then the Nightmare doll can't be used. All this is null and void if the 2nd roll results in a tie. Where you have to start the process over again. I think that covers it.



Clay

Beast wrote:So you are saying there is a difference between "Roll again" and "re-roll"? You might want to look in a dictionary of the English language...

re- 
a prefix, occurring originally in loanwords from Latin, used with the meaning “again” or “again and again” to indicate repetition; refurbish; retype; retrace; revert.

Normally you would be correct, however if you, I dont know, maybe look in the rulebook?

In roll offs you "pick up the dice and roll again", as opposed to "rerolls" which are defined just below the roll-off rules.

In a roll off you never reroll the dice, you pick the dice up and roll again, creating a new dice roll as opposed to a repeat of the dice roll which a reroll generates.

Dashofpepper wrote:Ok, here's the real question:

Bjorn lets SW reroll their dice to go first.

Dark Eldar Nightmare Doll can make the opponent reroll their dice to go first.

If you were right about what the Nightmare Doll does, there might be a problem. However, the Nightmare Doll does NOT allow the DE to force their opponent to re-roll their dice to go first. Instead, it allow them to force their opponent to "re-roll the dice when ascertaining who may choose table edge or quarter." As there is no longer any roll to do that in the standard rulebook scenarios, it has no effect in those scenarios. The roll-off is to see who goes first, and the player who wins gets to choose who goes first. THEN! the player who goes first (which might have been the loser of the dice-off) gets to pick deployment zone and has to set up first.

Bottom line, the Nightmare Doll does nothing.

I agree Don, the Nightmare Doll DOESN'T Actually work, however when it comes to Dash, he keep yelling at me that it does work

don_mondo wrote: Instead, it allow them to force their opponent to "re-roll the dice when ascertaining who may choose table edge or quarter." As there is no longer any roll to do that in the standard rulebook scenarios, it has no effect in those scenarios.

I would disagree.

Choosing a table edge in the current edition is linked to who goes first. So ascertaining who may choose a table edge is done by determining who goes first. Determining who goes first is done with a roll-off.

So re-rolling to roll to go first satisfies the rules of the Nightmare doll. It doesn't specifically require a roll for choosing table edges... just a roll that ascertains who chooses... which the roll to go first does.


Not the original intention of the rule, since it was written at a time when you did roll for table edges. But it still fits the wording.




On the actual question, I would agree that one or the other (but not both) will work, due to not being allowed to re-roll a re-roll.

insaniak wrote:

don_mondo wrote: Instead, it allow them to force their opponent to "re-roll the dice when ascertaining who may choose table edge or quarter." As there is no longer any roll to do that in the standard rulebook scenarios, it has no effect in those scenarios.

Choosing a table edge in the current edition is linked to who goes first. So ascertaining who may choose a table edge is done by determining who goes first. Determining who goes first is done with a roll-off.

QFT.


The same dice roll that determines who goes first also determines who chooses table quarters/sides. Forcing your opponent to reroll the dice for who may choose table sides....also happens to influence who is going first.

I've not ever been sure why there's confusion here.

Dashofpepper wrote:I've not ever been sure why there's confusion here.

There's confusion because it's not a straightforward process, and the Nightmare Doll rules are referencing a mechanic that no longer exists by itself.

To be perfectly honest, my interpretation is at best a slight stretch of the rules, since, as I said, it's not how the Doll's rule was actually written to work. It's taking a rule from a previous edition and moulding it to fit the current (slightly different) rules.

So while I feel that it satisfies the strict letter of the rules, and allows an item that otherwise would not function to work under the current ruleset, I wouldn't expect everybody to accept it.

insaniak wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:I've not ever been sure why there's confusion here.

There's confusion because it's not a straightforward process, and the Nightmare Doll rules are referencing a mechanic that no longer exists by itself.

To be perfectly honest, my interpretation is at best a slight stretch of the rules, since, as I said, it's not how the Doll's rule was actually written to work. It's taking a rule from a previous edition and moulding it to fit the current (slightly different) rules.

So while I feel that it satisfies the strict letter of the rules, and allows an item that otherwise would not function to work under the current ruleset, I wouldn't expect everybody to accept it.

Given that several other armies have ways to do the same thing...it doesn't really seem like an issue though.

Nevermind...

Still no one chiming in with a possible solution to all these dice rolls.

Already done so - EVERY time you pick up the dice to roll again (i.e. every time you tie) you are allowed to reroll the dice for Bjorns power, and, if the Nightmare dol worked the DE could force the player to reroll, but only if the SM player hasnt already rolled their dice.

If the reroll, from either one, causes a tie you pick the dice up and roll again. This "reactivates" the ability for Bjorn to reroll the dice for picking deployment.


The reason the nightmqare doll doesnt work is that ther eis no dice roll for first turn - this is decided seperately, by who chooses table sides. While this is the result of a roll off it is NOT the same as a roll for first turn, which is a discrete event that no longer exists.

In other words roll off(deployment, winner or loser may end up going first) /= roll off(first turn)

Too lazy to look, how does INAT handle the Nightmare Doll?



Clay

Primarch wrote:Too lazy to look, how does INAT handle the Nightmare Doll?



Clay

Oh, that is an ugly question, bro.

I'm pretty sure INAT ruled that the doll in question does not work. One of the many reasons that my sweet baboo hates the INAT.

Just saying.

--Mrs. Dash

Yeah, but unfortunately for him, most/all of these events he plans on attending use the INAT, so he should be prepared.



Clay

alright I joined the cat fun

As an aside I just came back from the Conquest GT in San Fransisco, and they were using the INAT FAQ as well

Regarding Nightmare doll not working because it specifies the roll for table edge/quarter rather than going first.

Nightmare Doll: "may force his opponent to re-roll the dice when ascertaining who may choose table edge or quarter."

Bjorn: "can re-roll the dice to see who picks their deployment zone first."

both fail to match with the standard scenarios which say: "The players roll-off, and the winner chooses to go first or second."

IMO, if you are ruling the nightmare doll doesn't work there's no reason you shouldn't rule the same way for Bjorn.

Drunkspleen wrote:IMO, if you are ruling the nightmare doll doesn't work there's no reason you shouldn't rule the same way for Bjorn.

Yes, there is, and it's called an Errata

insaniak wrote:

don_mondo wrote: Instead, it allow them to force their opponent to "re-roll the dice when ascertaining who may choose table edge or quarter." As there is no longer any roll to do that in the standard rulebook scenarios, it has no effect in those scenarios.

I would disagree.

Choosing a table edge in the current edition is linked to who goes first. So ascertaining who may choose a table edge is done by determining who goes first. Determining who goes first is done with a roll-off.

So re-rolling to roll to go first satisfies the rules of the Nightmare doll. It doesn't specifically require a roll for choosing table edges... just a roll that ascertains who chooses... which the roll to go first does.

Not the original intention of the rule, since it was written at a time when you did roll for table edges. But it still fits the wording.

On the actual question, I would agree that one or the other (but not both) will work, due to not being allowed to re-roll a re-roll.

It may be linked to it but (Gwar, hide your eytes), check out the WH FAQ regarding the Liber heresius. Pay attention to the line that states:
The Liber Heresius doesn’t work within any of the three deployment types given in the standard missions in the new rulebook, because it only works when you are able to dice off for choice of deployment zone – in the new missions you don’t actually dice off for this, as it is decided by who wins the dice off to have the first turn.

The same reasoning applies to the Nightmare Doll.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Given that several other armies have ways to do the same thing...it doesn't really seem like an issue though.

And given that at least one of those has been FAQed by GW as not working.................... See above.

And Bjorn works because GW put out an errata and changed HIS rule from deployment to who goes first. Gee, you'd think they thought there was a difference between the two.................

don_mondo wrote:It may be linked to it but (Gwar, hide your eytes), check out the WH FAQ regarding the Liber heresius. Pay attention to the line that states:
The Liber Heresius doesn’t work within any of the three deployment types given in the standard missions in the new rulebook, because it only works when you are able to dice off for choice of deployment zone – in the new missions you don’t actually dice off for this, as it is decided by who wins the dice off to have the first turn.

The same reasoning applies to the Nightmare Doll.

Except it doesn't because it's the WH FAQ not the DE FAQ yadda yadda yadda etc etc. However, the Nightmare Still doesn't work because the rules say it doesn't, for the same reason as the Liber Heresius

Bjorn Works because he had an Errata. The Doll does not work because it got no such Errata.

don_mondo wrote:It may be linked to it but (Gwar, hide your eytes), check out the WH FAQ regarding the Liber heresius. Pay attention to the line that states:
The Liber Heresius doesn’t work within any of the three deployment types given in the standard missions in the new rulebook, because it only works when you are able to dice off for choice of deployment zone – in the new missions you don’t actually dice off for this, as it is decided by who wins the dice off to have the first turn.

Excellent. Thanks for pointing that out.

I could point out that the wording for the two items is different (LH refers specifically to a roll for table edge, whereas ND refers to re-rolling when ascertaining who chooses...) but it would be just playing word games. They're effectively the same thing.

So Bjorn works because he's been errata'd. Nightmare Doll doesn't.

Gwar! wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:IMO, if you are ruling the nightmare doll doesn't work there's no reason you shouldn't rule the same way for Bjorn.

Yes, there is, and it's called an Errata

Bah, I even checked the FAQ to make sure I wasn't jumping to conclusions but skipped over the Errata.