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According to the rule-book pg. 31, a "victim" unit can be forced to take multiple pinning tests as we understand it. does this mean that say, if a unit of 10 ratlings fire at a unit, 7 hit, and 5 wound, that the victim unit has to take 5 different pinning tests?
or does this rule apply on a per unit basis? ie, a unit can only force one pinning test? but say a ratling unit and a mortar unit firing at the same unit, can force one each, ie two?

//Calle

Jag_Calle wrote:According to the rule-book pg. 31, a "victim" unit can be forced to take multiple pinning tests as we understand it. does this mean that say, if a unit of 10 ratlings fire at a unit, 7 hit, and 5 wound, that the victim unit has to take 5 different pinning tests?
or does this rule apply on a per unit basis? ie, a unit can only force one pinning test? but say a ratling unit and a mortar unit firing at the same unit, can force one each, ie two?

//Calle

No.

All wounds from a unit's shooting happen simultaneously. So, the ratlings fire, then you take 5 wounds simultaneously and you now have a rule saying "Did you take a wound from a pinning weapon?"

If the answer is Yes, you take a Pinning test.

The only way to cause multiple pinning tests is to shoot more than 1 unit with pinning weapons at a unit. So if you wound with Ratlings, and they pass, then later on in the shooting phase fire a Mortar and wound, you cause a 2nd Pinning test.

I disagree. The rule says that unit wounded by a pinning weapon is required to take a pinning test.
A unit wounded by two pinning weapons are required to take two pinning tests.

Yeah Steelemage is correct the rulebook clearly states that if you are wounded by a pinning weapon you take a pinning check, so in your example yes you take 5 pinning checks. Presuming you fail all 5 saves obviously (or don't get a save).

Steelmage99 wrote:I disagree. The rule says that unit wounded by a pinning weapon is required to take a pinning test.
A unit wounded by two pinning weapons are required to take two pinning tests.

FlingitNow wrote:Yeah Steelemage is correct the rulebook clearly states that if you are wounded by a pinning weapon you take a pinning check, so in your example yes you take 5 pinning checks. Presuming you fail all 5 saves obviously (or don't get a save).

No, both of you are incorrect. If it had said "for every Pinning weapon that causes a wound", then you would be right. It doesn't say that though, it says If a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must immediately take a Pinning test. Even if you have taken 9001 wounds from 9001 Pinning weapons, you have a rule now saying "Have you taken a wound from a pinning weapon?", so you take 1 pinning test.

Steelmage99 wrote:I disagree. The rule says that unit wounded by a pinning weapon is required to take a pinning test.
A unit wounded by two pinning weapons are required to take two pinning tests.

This is indeed the RAW. It is just incredibly silly.

MekanobSamael wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:I disagree. The rule says that unit wounded by a pinning weapon is required to take a pinning test.
A unit wounded by two pinning weapons are required to take two pinning tests.

This is indeed the RAW. It is just incredibly silly.

Except it isn't the RaW?

The RaW is "If a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must immediately take a Pinning test." It does not say for EVERY wound.

It does not say for EVERY wound.

But it does say for every weapon causing a wound...

FlingitNow wrote:

It does not say for EVERY wound.

But it does say for every weapon causing a wound...

No, it doesn't. Please point out where it says Every Weapon in this line:

"If a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must immediately take a Pinning test."

"If a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must immediately take a Pinning test."

Every weapon causing a wound satisfies that criteria hence causing a test. You're reading actually implies you can only take 1 test ever for pinning.

FlingitNow wrote:

"If a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must immediately take a Pinning test."

Every weapon causing a wound satisfies that criteria hence causing a test. You're reading actually implies you can only take 1 test ever for pinning.

How can you do that if all wounds are simultaneous? You take 5 wounds, all at the same time.

You now have a rule that kicks in, it asks "Are you a unit other than a vehicle that has suffered any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon?" If the answer is Yes, you "must immediately take a Pinning test." The rule is Not "You must immediately take a Pinning test for every wound Caused."

Has the unit taken any wounds from a pinning weapon? Yes.
If it takes 'a pinning test', then it satisfies the requirements of that rule.

If the rules instead said something like "When a weapon with pinning causes an unsaved wound, then ..." then there would be a clear statement that multiple tests are required. Otherwise, it's one pinning test per firing unit.

MekanobSamael wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:I disagree. The rule says that unit wounded by a pinning weapon is required to take a pinning test.
A unit wounded by two pinning weapons are required to take two pinning tests.

This is indeed the RAW. It is just incredibly silly.

.

There's a big difference between "Rules as Written" and "Rules I say are Written because I think people will not check or because I was too lazy to check myself".

FlingitNow wrote:

It does not say for EVERY wound.

But it does say for every weapon causing a wound...

Is this still in debate? Please direct your attention to the word "A".

If a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved
wounds from a pinning weapon, it must immediately
take --------------->a<---------- Pinning test. This is a normal Leadership test.

Any = any number of unsaved wounds results in ------------>a<-------------- pinning test.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Steelmage99 wrote:I disagree. The rule says that unit wounded by a pinning weapon is required to take a pinning test.
A unit wounded by two pinning weapons are required to take two pinning tests.

please read the rulebook.

Gwar! wrote:

FlingitNow wrote:

"If a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must immediately take a Pinning test."

Every weapon causing a wound satisfies that criteria hence causing a test. You're reading actually implies you can only take 1 test ever for pinning.

How can you do that if all wounds are simultaneous? You take 5 wounds, all at the same time.

You now have a rule that kicks in, it asks "Are you a unit other than a vehicle that has suffered any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon?" If the answer is Yes, you "must immediately take a Pinning test." The rule is Not "You must immediately take a Pinning test for every wound Caused."

Being simultaneous has absolutely nothing to do with this. Your interpretation does in fact imply that you can only ever take one pinning test. If you try to argue that it works only because there is a clause allowing this, you are opening up huge problems in other areas of the rules that use very similar wording but do not have this clause.

solkan wrote:
If the rules instead said something like "When a weapon with pinning causes an unsaved wound, then ..." then there would be a clear statement that multiple tests are required. Otherwise, it's one pinning test per firing unit.

This wording is basically the same as the wording in the rulebook. Their meanings are identical.

IggyEssEmManlyMan wrote:

MekanobSamael wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:I disagree. The rule says that unit wounded by a pinning weapon is required to take a pinning test.
A unit wounded by two pinning weapons are required to take two pinning tests.

This is indeed the RAW. It is just incredibly silly.

.

There's a big difference between "Rules as Written" and "Rules I say are Written because I think people will not check or because I was too lazy to check myself".

You obviously haven't read any rules yourself, as you are too lazy to make any real arguments.

visavismeyou wrote:

FlingitNow wrote:

It does not say for EVERY wound.

But it does say for every weapon causing a wound...

Is this still in debate? Please direct your attention to the word "A".

The word "a" is the whole reason the opposite argument works.

visavismeyou wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Steelmage99 wrote:I disagree. The rule says that unit wounded by a pinning weapon is required to take a pinning test.
A unit wounded by two pinning weapons are required to take two pinning tests.

please read the rulebook.

We are all basing our arguments off logical readings of the rulebook, and you come and tell us to read more in general? How would you like it if I told you to read all 90+ pages of core rules?

Oh boy another circular argument...


The way it is played by everyone I know, and every Tourney is 1 pinning test per unique weapon in the squad. This I believe is RAI.

Now RAW its every weapon. There is none if that simultaneous garbage gwar likes to pull out of thin air, nowhere in the BGB does it mention timing restrictions within turns. If you want to quote that crap go back to playing Magic the Gathering.

It is not a condition that is checked for at the end of the phase like the "25% casualties in a single phase" with a corresponding result applied once.

Any wounds from A pinning weapon incurs A pinning test.
We are even told that a unit can take several pinning tests during a turn.

It is not like I am blind to the arguments from the other side, I simply believe that some people are blinded by the mechanics of the Break test.

Me (and all the people I've played with) play it exactly like Gwar says.

One unit with pinning weapons fire on the enemy, if theres an unsaved wound they take 1 pinning test, no matter how many unsaved wounds there were.
You can however force the enemy to take more pinning tests by firing with another unit that causes pinning tests.

Me (and all the people I've played with) play it exactly like Gwar says.

That's fine lots of people use 4th Ed mechanics still in 5th Ed, but how it works now is that you should be taking a pinning test for every weapon that causes an unsaved wound.

FlingitNow wrote:

Me (and all the people I've played with) play it exactly like Gwar says.

That's fine lots of people use 4th Ed mechanics still in 5th Ed, but how it works now is that you should be taking a pinning test for every weapon that causes an unsaved wound.

Except you don't, because that isn't what the rules RaW say.

Except you don't, because that isn't what the rules say.

Well it is what the rulebook says and makes sense to me and seems to also follow the authors intentions so pray tell how do you know what the RaI says if it is different? Didn't you claim I was arrogant in another thread for saying that the RaI was obvious now you're telling me what the RaI says?

FlingitNow wrote:

Except you don't, because that isn't what the rules say.

Well it is what the rulebook says and makes sense to me and seems to also follow the authors intentions so pray tell how do you know what the RaI says if it is different? Didn't you claim I was arrogant in another thread for saying that the RaI was obvious now you're telling me what the RaI says?

Firstly, stop the Strawman Arguments, all they do make you look silly.

Secondly, I am telling you what the RaW says. The RaW says "If a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must immediately take a Pinning test."

You take Any wounds, then you take A (Singular) Pinning test. At no point does it suggest you take 1 test per wound caused. As I have tried to explain countless times, even if 7 Weapons cause 7 wounds, all that happens is a rule kicks in asking "Did you take any wounds from a Pinning weapon?" If the answer is "Yes", you take A (Singular) Pinning test.

I must say that it has never crossed my mind playing it any other way than a pinning test for every model that has been killed by the pinning weapon. My friends all play this the same way, though I can see why people would play it with only ever having to take one pinning test from one squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar wrote:

Secondly, I am telling you what the RaW says. The RaW says "If a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must immediately take a Pinning test."

You take Any wounds, then you take A (Singular) Pinning test. At no point does it suggest you take 1 test per wound caused. As I have tried to explain countless times, even if 7 Weapons cause 7 wounds, all that happens is a rule kicks in asking "Did you take any wounds from a Pinning weapon?" If the answer is "Yes", you take A (Singular) Pinning test.

I must agree with this...

But the wording is that if a unit takes any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon it takes a pinning test.

It is A test. Since the sniper shots are all inflicted at one instant, the wounds are all inflicted at one instant. The wounds were all inflicted by a pinning weapon (type:sniper rifle) so taking one pinning test follows the rules here. All of the wounds are inflicted together, so there is no break in which to take the test until all wounds are inflicted.

Now if a firing unit were armed with two different types of pinning weapons an arguement could be made that a pinning test would be needed for each pinning weapon type that inflicted an unsaved wound, but if all the wounds are inflicted by the same type weapon RAW is satisfied.

There is no time to take the save(s) until all of the wounds have been inflicted, so at the first possible moment one pinning test can be taken, which will fullfill all unsaved wounds for that instant of shooting.


Sliggoth

Firstly, stop the Strawman Arguments, all they do make you look silly.

Secondly, I am telling you what the RaW says. The RaW says "If a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must immediately take a Pinning test."

You take Any wounds, then you take A (Singular) Pinning test. At no point does it suggest you take 1 test per wound caused.

Firstly the one making strawman arguments is you here. I've never said anythig about 1 test per wound. You never said what the RaW says you said what the RaI says.

Here's your quote:

"Except you don't, because that isn't what the rules say." Stress mine you clearly state that it is RaI (or the rules) that you are talking about here.

Back to your straw man argument about wounds, please stop it. The rulebook says if a weapon causes any unsaved wounds you take a test. Therefore every time A (as in 1) weapon causes an unsaved wound you take a test. It doesn't say anything about units attacking or numbers of wounds, it is 1 test if a weapon causes one or more unsaved wounds. Not 1 test ever as you appear to be arguing.

FlingitNow wrote:

Firstly, stop the Strawman Arguments, all they do make you look silly.

Secondly, I am telling you what the RaW says. The RaW says "If a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must immediately take a Pinning test."

You take Any wounds, then you take A (Singular) Pinning test. At no point does it suggest you take 1 test per wound caused.

Firstly the one making strawman arguments is you here. I've never said anythig about 1 test per wound. You never said what the RaW says you said what the RaI says.

Here's your quote:

"Except you don't, because that isn't what the rules say." Stress mine you clearly state that it is RaI (or the rules) that you are talking about here.

Back to your straw man argument about wounds, please stop it. The rulebook says if a weapon causes any unsaved wounds you take a test. Therefore every time A (as in 1) weapon causes an unsaved wound you take a test. It doesn't say anything about units attacking or numbers of wounds, it is 1 test if a weapon causes one or more unsaved wounds. Not 1 test ever as you appear to be arguing.

The Rules are the RaW. Or are The Rules the Rules as Not Written?

However, I apologize for confusing you, I shall edit my previous post to make it clearer for you.

The Rules are the RaW. Or are they the Rules as Not Written?

this again how many times have I proven this wrong by YMDCs defibnition of RaW. RaW is the rules as written and means intyerpreting the rules by literally translating what has been written. RaI is the rules as designed by Games workshop which by definition is the rules.

I say one test is taken regardless of how many wounds are taken.

For all the reasons that Gwar! and visavimeyou have illustrated above.

If a unit takes wounds from a pinning weapon they take a pinning test. There's really no need to complicate it further.

edited for clarity.

If a unit takes a wound from a pinning weapon they take a pinning test. There's really no need to complicate it further.

Exactly if a unit takes one or more wounds rom a pinning weapon it takes a check. Thus if it suffers one or more wounds from 2 pinning weapons it takes 2 tests. 3 then it takes 3 tests. Not one test and that is it done for the game as the other reading demands or one test per unit causing pinning checks which is just plain making up rules not even hinted at anywhere in the rulebook.

It says take 1 test if wounded by a pinning weapon and that is how I should play it.

FlingitNow wrote:

The Rules are the RaW. Or are they the Rules as Not Written?

this again how many times have I proven this wrong by YMDCs defibnition of RaW. RaW is the rules as written and means intyerpreting the rules by literally translating what has been written. RaI is the rules as designed by Games workshop which by definition is the rules.

Zero, and I believe you've been told repeatedly by a moderator to stop trying to argue that nonsensical point.

Gwar has it correct, Any wounds -> A test.