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I just wanted to show an example of just how ridiculous IG can get at low points. Deployment and tactics barely matter anymore when you get enough shots on the table, and autocannons do that on the cheap.

Yes, it will not table MEQ in a single turn, but it certainly does table them:

Company Command Squad w/ 3x Meltagun, Flamer, Chimera (ML/HF) 140

Veterans w/ 3x Meltagun, Chimera (ML/HF) 155

Platoon Command Squad w/ 3x Meltagun, Flamer, Chimera (ML/HF) 120
Infantry Squad w/ Sniper Rifle, Lascannon, Chimera (ML/HB) 130
Infantry Squad w/ Sniper Rifle, Lascannon, Chimera (ML/HB) 130
Heavy Weapons Squad w/ 3x Autocannon 75
Heavy Weapons Squad w/ 3x Autocannon 75

Hydra Flak Cannon w/ Hull HB, Pintle Heavy Stubber 85
Hydra Flak Cannon w/ Hull HB, Pintle Heavy Stubber 85

Total: 995

So, what we get on the table is 7 Chimera Chasis, 6 Normal and 4 Twin-linked autocannons, 2 Lascannons, 3 Melta units and a smattering of small arms fire. If you want to be meaner, you can even drop the two heavy stubbers and sniper rifles and put in an Officer of the Fleet to punish reserves. I don't pretend it is perfect (and would invite changes), but the fact exists that you can now make 40k play itself...

This was mostly done as an experiement in response to statements of Guard not being competitive at very low points, of which I think the opposite is true. When you get down this low, armies Space Marines and Tyranids are the ones that really get hurt.

Pretty certain I'd table that list in 3-4 turns. The trick is to not bother deploying anything for you to shoot or if I go first just to assault the hell out of your vehciles, auto hitting krak grenades and PFs will wreck 'em turn 1.

Yes it is an awesome amount of fire power, but getting to use it is not always as easy as you'd think...

This is why I've always said Guard is harder to play than it looks. If you're going to crowbar this much dedicated firepower into your list, you have to be VERY careful about using it lest you get assaulted and tabled.

I have to agree with FlingitNow. Your MathHammer is strong, however your WarHammer.... not so much.

The list is squishy. It would NEED to table someone in 1 turn, which anyone that knows what they're doing will not allow you to do. If anything in that list gets assaulted its game over, and the fact is, there is a little enough that most armies will be able to sweep through that list in 3 turns max without ever leaving CC for more than 1 turn.

I think it would be fun to play that list, however I wouldn't expect to win too often.

It is not as good as my other 5 valkyrie list,
And I could run into your line in about turn 2 with my grav tanks,although you might shoot them down,but the inside will own you
Or,I stay far at a perfect angle,so I shoot your chimeras down and then charge in forthe kill
OR,if its objective wise,I hide and contest last turn,it would be 10 min draw game

Yeah guard players sometimes get over excited about firepower and think it will solve all their problems.

I was up against a guard player at 1,000 who foolishly took 3 Leman Russes a Balisk, and then just 20 guards men.

I went first by the end of my turn 1 he had 10 guardsmen left and conceded without so much as getting a shot off.

This list is pretty good though because there is a real saturation of armour and it maintains good mobility. But it doesn't realy appear to have a way of dealing with turn 1 assaults.

This list does not use Leman Russes or heavy artillery. It has more than 20 guards. 5 Vendettas in a 1000 points list is stupid, why would you have those things in squadrons? What happens that 50% of the time you do not go first?

What army is assaulting turn one, by the way? Why would I deploy in such a way to allow assaults to 'run through my lines' and 'autohit my vehicles'?

I will keep valks in reserves then
And eldar tanks might get into combat turn 2,cuz of the 36 inch move (star engines),or lets say 12 + 24
I run extremely fast into you,and put out my guys for a close range fire storm(DA with bladestorm)and tank busting dragons,along with a strength 9 anti tank singing spear farseer
now you have 4 chimera and guardsman left,I would hide and leave my seer,dragons,remaining Wave serpents do the rest
My thoughts only,correct me if Im wrong people!

It's good list but I wouldn't call it ridiculous

I would love to play it against my standard SM 1000 pt list

It's a very good list. I'm not sure quite what army Flingitnow is playing, where he has mass first-turn assaults going on. And at the end of the day, surely that kind of alpha-strike 1-st turn assault army is just as vulnerable to massed shooting units as vice versa.

So, just a reminder to everyone, you can say a list has X vulnerabilities, without saying 'oh, I'd table that for sure', which is a pretty silly and arrogant statement, given you're talking to someone you've never met.

Tony the guardsman, especially . . . wow. Where to even start?

It just shows the power of an MSU (Multiple Small Units) approach to guard (and as an extension, most armies) in this game. The more death-star examples you give, the stronger this gets against them.

This would have a very difficult time against a similar list.

@General_Chaos: That's the silly thing about it. Nothing is that strong alone, and destroying any one thing makes little difference. You don't see a landraider filled with terminators that costs half your army here, instead I have 14 units that can fire on 14 targets and apply their fire to where it is most advantageous.

General_Chaos wrote:It's good list but I wouldn't call it ridiculous

I would love to play it against my standard SM 1000 pt list

how many drop pods in your list?

well you see,I didnt say I would table him,I said that I have a pretty good chance of blowing up a lot of stuff in the turn 2-3
I mean no offence by posting replies,just to let you know,as it is just my thoughts,and my thoughts only

I don't get it. Five valkyries only have two of my targets that they can damage, and Eldar are useless when you pop the 1-2 transports that carry fire dragons.

My SM 6 dreadnought list wouldn't mind this list too much. I pick a flank and start to run up, using the lead dreads to pop smoke to negate 50% of your shots. Depending on how you deploy the lascannon chimeras might be the target for my missiles, if they're in a bad spot then the heavy weapons teams will likely be my choice, one missile hit can make them run away. It'll be a tough fight, but if I can get to side armor you'll lose.

That said, I'm thining of grabbing 3 AC/LC preds and giving my MotF a conversion beamer instead just to give me better odds at cracking transports.

Yikes Norade, 250 or so points left over to pick two troops from the SM Codex?

What happens if a mech opponent... drives away? Yet another example of a completely unbalanced list that has an easy solution.

Tony the guardsman wrote:well you see,I didnt say I would table him,I said that I have a pretty good chance of blowing up a lot of stuff in the turn 2-3
I mean no offence by posting replies,just to let you know,as it is just my thoughts,and my thoughts only

No worries mate, sorry to be ragging on you. But when you described what you would do against the army, you basically assumed you'd make all your rolls and would go first, would be all in range etc. It's easy to say that with any army (unless someone posts an all-land raider list and you own no meltaguns) and I'm sure Fearspect or any other player could describe a similar situation against your army - it just ends up going in circles. Better to concentrate on criticising lists in a vacuum maybe!

What army is assaulting turn one, by the way? Why would I deploy in such a way to allow assaults to 'run through my lines' and 'autohit my vehicles'?

Space Marines and IG for a start. In this case I was talking about my space marines. So you're telling me with this list you have youre guardsmen start outside the vehicles? If so that is even better I'd nail 4 squads at least in turn 1 (2 with heavy flamers 2 with assault), that'd cripple your firepower and there's a chance I'm still locked in assault (though granted it is small) which would be even better. Please tell me you'll blob those squads that would be great, well for me.

If your squads arent outside the vehciles what the are you going to stop me crumping your vehciles with? Even if they are outside the vehciles after the heavy flamer has toasted them there's still a good chance i could potentially assault a vehicle (though I probably wouldn't with all those juicy guardsmen around).

Though my army does do well against static gunlines and basically auto wins me the game if I go first against such an opponent.

I suppose that would be true if this were a static gunline list as opposed to mech. Please keep posts relevant to this list please.

I suppose that would be true if this were a static gunline list as opposed to mech. Please keep posts relevant to this list please.

I am you said you'd be protecting you vehciles so I couldn't assault them. that means you infantry are outside the vehciles which makes you army a static gunline, yes there are elements of mobility and if you deployed all in your tanks my army would possibly struggle more as I'd probably be able to pop 4 tanks at best more likely only 2-3 in assault (maybe another one with the Pred I take at 1,000, only 1 as my army isn;t optimised at 1,000 pts yet).

This is an army that has good fire power but doesn;t really seem to be designed to work from ninja and if deployed you think it would struggle to turn 1 assaulters. That is all I was saying. It is an alphastrike army that has no way of making that alpha strike if it doesn't go first.

Flingitnow, what are you using to pull off 1st turn assaults with SM? You can't assault out of drop pods and land raiders aren't quite that fast.

Fearspect wrote:Yikes Norade, 250 or so points left over to pick two troops from the SM Codex?

What happens if a mech opponent... drives away? Yet another example of a completely unbalanced list that has an easy solution.

[HQ]
MoTF (Combi-plasma)

[Troops]
Scouts (ML)
Scouts (ML)

[Elites]
Dreadnought (MM/HF)
Dreadnought (MM/HF)
Dreadnought (MM/HF)

[Heavy Support]
Dreadnought (2x AC)
Dreadnought (2x AC)
Dreadnought (2x AC)

You can try to drive away from my flanking you, but moving means your heavy weapons won't be firing and you limit your offensive output. You heavy weapons teams face instant death from nearly anything so if I can get good odds to a chimera or hydra I'll drop some AC rounds into them and after one wound they're like as not to run. My MM's have better range than your Meltas so if you want to keep away that's fine by me. You certainly will have some trouble doing damage to my list at range and most of your force is pretty stationary. That said, neither list is auto win against the other and I might do well to drop an AC dreadnought and add some pods.


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I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Flingitnow, what are you using to pull off 1st turn assaults with SM? You can't assault out of drop pods and land raiders aren't quite that fast.

Scouts with shotguns and a P-Fist in an Land Speed Storm. Scout move 24" move 12" jump out, punch a tank.

Flingitnow, what are you using to pull off 1st turn assaults with SM? You can't assault out of drop pods and land raiders aren't quite that fast.

Actually Land raiders are that fast. You start 24" apart the Landraider on it's side turns that's 3", then moves 12" you deploy your Terminators so th Front of their base is 4" from the vehicle, you;re now just 5" from you opponent. Obvious Shrike would make this tactic that be more assured.

If you have Shrike you can also always assault with:

Any scouts (you start 18" and scout to 12" run just 1" and you can assault). What ever you deploy with shrike.

But lets no also forget the humble Land speeder Storm capable of a 45" charge on turn 1 without Shrike even needing to be in the list (46"-51" with him)!

If you wanted to in a shrike build you could literally assault with your entire army on turn 1. Not that I take shrike.

One guy punches one tank (maybe), and then what? He and his transport die?

If you are doing dreadspam, that's fine. I outshoot that by quite a large margin.


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These wonky list attempts to provide a hard counter are everything but that, unfortunately. Your Terminator example just suicided 450+ points to kill 1-2 of my 7 vehicles (about 100 points).

One guy punches one tank (maybe), and then what? He and his transport die?

Remember all SMs have krak grenades and as it is turn 1 you're not going to have moved so they are autohitting. Fist punches 1 tank (3-4 auto hits depending on list) 4 scouts krak grenade another, multiply this by 2 and you have 3 dead tanks potentially 4 dependant on your deployment and my dice rolling.

Transports flame your heavy weapons teams. Then yes your now severely depleted army has the choice of wasting those scouts and ignoring the main bulk of my army that will be hitting you next turn or ignoring the army and dealing with the scouts. Either way I'm assaulting you again next turn so I don't really mind.

FlingitNow wrote:
Actually Land raiders are that fast. You start 24" apart the Landraider on it's side turns that's 3", then moves 12" you deploy your Terminators so th Front of their base is 4" from the vehicle, you;re now just 5" from you opponent. Obvious Shrike would make this tactic that be more assured.

Knowing your load out, why would anyone deploy directly in front of your termie filled land raider?

This list isn't too bad for the points. It brings a mech feel with a nice punch to compliment the mobility and armor.

Nice job fear

However we're getting derailed into a my army vs your army debate. The point I was trying to make is that your army is an alphastrike army reliant on doing so much damage in the turn shoots that it wins the day. The problem that your army has is if it doesn't go first it'lll get nailed by other alpha strike and fast assault armies. Hence why my Alpha strike army has the choice to go outflanking and deepstriking to ensure I get first hit even if I don't go first (obviously such a tactic does reduce the alphastrike).

That is the problem your army has.


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Knowing your load out, why would anyone deploy directly in front of your termie filled land raider?

I don't take this load out and certainly wouldn't consider it at 1,000 points just pointing out turn 1 assaults are very possible with the SM codex.

@Flingit: All of your first turn charge options except the LS Storm Scouts are dependant on your opponent deploying in a way that allows you to get that charge. (You aren't forced to deploy at the 24" line) The land raider trick is even illegal. You can't gain an extra 3" by pivoting - the tank can move 12", you can pivot as much as you want, but you can not go more than 12'' - all pivots included.

Also, all 1st turn chargers are more expensive than the one unit they will kill, so you will probably run out of units before him.

The list is good, it is not awesome OMG IMBA

Not to mention the fact that anyone who deploys a gun line as far forward into their deployment zone as they can is asking to get smacked down by a quick assault force.

edit Damn phone, made me get beat to the point. And I don't that the LR trick is illegal. It is dirty, but this isn't fantasy, pivots aren't measured as part of your move.

It's legal, just not very impressive.