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The vehicle rules says a vehicle can move 12". It also say you can pivot as many times as you want during your move.

What it doesn't allow, is to move further than 12" - the ability to pivot does not allow you to end your move further than 12'' from where you started. If one part of your tank is now 15" from where the furthest part was, you are cheating - you have moved further than the rulebook allows you to.

Illumini wrote:The vehicle rules says a vehicle can move 12". It also say you can pivot as many times as you want during your move.

What it doesn't allow, is to move further than 12" - the ability to pivot does not allow you to end your move further than 12'' from where you started. If one part of your tank is now 15" from where the furthest part was, you are cheating - you have moved further than the rulebook allows you to.

This is a YMDC discussion and according to most sources it is considered slightly dirty but legal.

Fearspect wrote:If you are doing dreadspam, that's fine. I outshoot that by quite a large margin.

That it does, but does it out survive my list with 10 side armor and no ability to touch me with meltas. I say no ability because you can only move 6" and fire meltas and meltas only have an effective range of 12" with a mas range of 18". My Multi-meltas have an effective range of 18" and a maximum range of 30" this means that either you need to move 12" with your transport to get within range and give me a shot against you first, or need to try and dance at the end of your range and hope to score hits because if I get to move I'm likely enough to pop your transport and assault the juicy bits inside. In all, I think both of our lists are pretty nasty with mine tending towards being tougher to crack and yours toward more fire power.

Against armour 12, you don't really need to get into 'melta range'. They are still AP1.

Yeah, but with only 3 meltas per unit and needing a 4+ to do any damage are you confident enough to get that close when whiffing means you're in for a rough ride?

FlingitNow wrote:

Flingitnow, what are you using to pull off 1st turn assaults with SM? You can't assault out of drop pods and land raiders aren't quite that fast.

Actually Land raiders are that fast. You start 24" apart the Landraider on it's side turns that's 3", then moves 12" you deploy your Terminators so th Front of their base is 4" from the vehicle, you;re now just 5" from you opponent.

You obviously don't know how to count? What makes you think you are 5 inch away from your opponent now? What makes you think I have to deploy 24 inch away from you?

Also, the odds of you starting first and it being pitched battle deployment is like 1/6 chance? If you are counting on that, I ll happily own you the other 5/6 of the time.

Fearspect wrote:Yes, it will not table MEQ in a single turn, but it certainly does table them:

So, what we get on the table is 7 Chimera Chasis, 6 Normal and 4 Twin-linked autocannons, 2 Lascannons, 3 Melta units and a smattering of small arms fire. If you want to be meaner, you can even drop the two heavy stubbers and sniper rifles and put in an Officer of the Fleet to punish reserves. I don't pretend it is perfect (and would invite changes), but the fact exists that you can now make 40k play itself...

This was mostly done as an experiement in response to statements of Guard not being competitive at very low points, of which I think the opposite is true. When you get down this low, armies Space Marines and Tyranids are the ones that really get hurt.

Fearspect, I might have to disagree here. I don't think you can table the lists here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/289073.page . I think SMs can be pretty point efficient at 1k. Based on my 2nd list, I have 3 AutoCannons, 2 TL Plasmas, 2 Lascannons, 4 Multi Meltas, and an army of 1 AV10, 2 AV11, 3 AV13, 3 AV12.

@Flingit: All of your first turn charge options except the LS Storm Scouts are dependant on your opponent deploying in a way that allows you to get that charge. (You aren't forced to deploy at the 24" line) The land raider trick is even illegal. You can't gain an extra 3" by pivoting - the tank can move 12", you can pivot as much as you want, but you can not go more than 12'' - all pivots included.

I never said I took all that stuff someone just asked what can get a first turn charge in from a SM army, so I listed the options. Also for the record the LR is the only one dependant on the enemy's deployment as scouts can infiltrate to 18" from where ever the enemy deploys, ditto Shrike. So again I reiterrate you could if you wanted to (not saying it would be a great or even good army) literally assault with your entire army on turn 1.


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You obviously don't know how to count? What makes you think you are 5 inch away from your opponent now? What makes you think I have to deploy 24 inch away from you?

Also, the odds of you starting first and it being pitched battle deployment is like 1/6 chance? If you are counting on that, I ll happily own you the other 5/6 of the time.

If I was

a) Even taking a LR full of Terminators

b) Reliant on them getting in a first turn charge

Then you'd have a point but neither is the case.

What it doesn't allow, is to move further than 12" - the ability to pivot does not allow you to end your move further than 12'' from where you started.

Unfortunately this logic doesn't work. Otherwise if a pivot an LR through 180 degrees the front has moved 6" (give or take) so by your "logic" wouldn't be able to shoot except for PoTMS, yet it doesn't count as having moved. Vehicles pivot around the centre and as long as when you are moving them you are measuring from the same point you always ignore any pivoting. Imagine if you will you were measuring from the centre at all times you'll notice the centre has not moved more than is allowed. If you want to go into it further look it up on YMDC it has been done to death.

@Davicus: Your list has three autocannons and two lascannons for your long-range shooting with one mobile MM. Even with BS4 shooting, that is not exactly impressive.

Anyway, I have seen many arguments of, "My army will perform perfectly and yours will miss all of its shooting" as reasons why this list will not perform well against x or y. The point is that this list takes away the worst part about playing at 1k points: how much bad dice rolls can screw you over. It rolls so many and as I go through my units I can move on quicker to a new target once one is destroyed.

It wins by math.

Challenge: Can someone out-math this list with any codex to make the probability as high as possible? I am positive the internet can improve this or come up with something better.


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Oh, and Davicus: I don't think that I would table you unless you play very badly. I think we would have a really good game actually.

We are having good talks here,well my opinion is that everything has an upper side and a downside,I mean this list has pretty powerful long range fire power,but when you get close enough,and start chopping,there isn't that much to worry about

Fearrespect I still think you need a way of dealing with someone elses alpha strike, be that some sort of tarpit screen or a method of reserving effectively or something else that is what I think you need.

Like the examnple eariler of someone with 5 Valks, if he doesn't go first he can just outflank and still ensure he gets that vital first round of shooting in.

It may detract from your core firepower but it would mean the army wasn't so easily found out by other alphastrike armies.

Well, good list for starters, don't know much about IG, though it looks nice. A few things about this topic:

A) I think my army wouldn't lose to yours...(force draw)

B) I think your army wouldn't lose to mine... While you do have an awe inspiring amount of shots at first glance, your fire power is flawed... the A/C's are your main guns, and if I were to deploy out of their LoS or range, I just don't worry about them. =P

C) I lost respect for Flingitnow

D) I lost respect for Flingitnow

E) I hate pivoting... it's glitches for 40k! >=O

F) I lost respect for Flingitnow

Fearspect, want to meet me on Vassal to test your 1k list against mine?

I have take-all-comers lists; I don't build lists tailored to beat anyone - and rather than debate in circles about what happens if we play and theoryhammering it out, why don't we just play a game?

Fear, it's a good list. It would obviously require some playtesting, but these guys obviously never took a statistics class. Everyone's claiming the heavy weapons would "run as likely as stay". Looking at the numbers, that's not the case. Out of the 36 possible outcomes on two dice, 21 of these outcome would pass the necessary test at leadership 7, significantly over half. That is just one of the many statistical liberties taken in the arguments on this forum.
On the subject of his troops having to be outside his chimera to defend it. that is not true. 5 troops can fire from inside a chimera through the top hatch. Although that's not a full squad, it is still a significant amount of fire power.
Also, there was an argument made to keep your stuff in reserve. That is just a situation that really works out for the guard in this scenario, as you are getting -1 to your reserve rolls, meaning you come on in even smaller numbers, piecemeal, to be ripped apart by the guard, who are all on the table.
To those who want to hide and contest objectives. Also, this would not work against this list. It is mobile enough to root you out of your hiding spot. There's this wonderful thing called tank shock.
Any alpha strike list would, in my oppinion, have a tough time against this list. If I were facing an alpha strike list, I would spread out and deploy in the back of my deployment zone, thereby negating your ability to get that first turn charge. I am mobile enough that being in the back of my zone doesn't particularly matter, and you just lost your biggest advantage.
the claim that an assault cannon would cause one wound on the heavy weapon squad. Odds are indeed in favor that you would cause a single wound, with a calculated wound total of 1 1/9, but there is still a decent chance (about 35%-40%) that you would not actually cause said wound. However, I will freely admit that the odds of you causing the wound are better than those of the squad passing its following leadership test.
Anyway, I'm not trying to be a dick, but I'm just saying many of the arguments used against this list are flawed. I am in now way saying this list is unstopable, or would even have a good win/lose ratio, but it's not as cut and dry as everyone is making it seem.
Cheers!

Edit. Also, a great way to stop outflank from getting side armor on you is to deploy along the two outer table edges with something. It stops them from entering in your deployment zone.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Well, good list for starters, don't know much about IG, though it looks nice. A few things about this topic:

A) I think my army wouldn't lose to yours...(force draw)

B) I think your army wouldn't lose to mine... While you do have an awe inspiring amount of shots at first glance, your fire power is flawed... the A/C's are your main guns, and if I were to deploy out of their LoS or range, I just don't worry about them. =P

C) I lost respect for Flingitnow

D) I lost respect for Flingitnow

E) I hate pivoting... it's glitches for 40k! >=O

F) I lost respect for Flingitnow

Well come on don't judge people by stuff they do! Fling is just a little too idealistic, that's all; I still respect him for his overall Astarte career. I mean seriously don't lose faith in people; Or the apocalypse would eventually fall upon us because China is democrazy and hopeless to change.

Just to add a side note on Fling's one-for-all alphastrike argument, check on it if you are interested: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/287744.page It seems another Mathhammer debate is going on here. Actually I see it as a good thing for everybody to sit down with coffee and stuff and fight the perfect war scenario in mind from time to time. Keep up the morale. So good luck with the last stand, Fling! Sir I am still waiting for you showing your specific alphastrike list! Keep up the fight!

The list is. . .okay against light armor lists. For example, Razorback spam and other guard lists you would be on equal footing with. Against lists that field a lot of Preds you would suffer against. Those auto cannons may get a lot of shots but they could only ever hope to glance front armor 13, and usually it won't happen anyhow. The rest of your fire power is unreliable. BS3 lascannons, and only two of them, sucks. A complete waste of points along with the sniper rifles. The melta guns are good, but the first things I would target are the Chimera that were charging me because, obviously, they have meltaguns. Being the only guard vehicles that were wildly charging into my lines, I would stop them with Auto/Las Preds and mop the fleshy units with my Baals (no perversion intended ) After that it's just a matter or getting everyone out of their vehicles, and if you play like I think you play, cornered in a line in the back, it won't be to hard to use your own vehicles as cover and piece you out. The end all be all. . .no.

Grim, that is a very well thought out argument. The only think I'd have to counter it would be, can you get all that stuff (and enough of it to do what you say) for a thousand points? I'm not being sarcastic or anything when I say I'd love to see the list (I play SM and have been toying with 1,000 pt lists). PM me, since it's relatively off-topic.
Cheers!