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this is my first battle report
so please
go easy on me

to start things off i haven't really played a good game against tyranids
i have a friend that plays nids...
but he kinda sucks
so i talked to a guy at the club i'm a member of
and we decided to play a 2500 point game
i had just bought Calgar and Sicarius so i wanted to run a game with them

the club (The War College) has a great selection of terrain
so this is what we chose on for the battle field


my list included...

HQ:
Calgar: 250pts with Honour Guard: + banner 135pts
Captain Sicarius: 200pts with Command Squad + standard + champion + plasma gun + melta gun + power fist 195pts

Troops:
Tactical Squad: + 5 extra members + missile launcher + flamer 170pts
Tactical Squad: + 5 extra members + missile launcher + flamer 170pts with Rhino: 35pts
Scout Squad: + Sergeant Telion + 5 extra members + Sniper rifles + camo cloaks 220pts

Elites:
Terminator Squad: + assault cannon 230pts with Land Raider Crusader: + storm bolter + multi-melta 270pts
Dreadnought: 105pts with Drop Pod: 35pts

Fast Attack:
Land Speeder: + assault cannon 90pts

Heavy Support:
Whirlwind: 85pts

i'm not quite sure on what the other guy had
other than 3 zoanthropes
a hive tyrant
two tervagaunts
three warriors
two termagant squads
some of those ridiculous genestealers
a hormagaunt squad
two mawlocs
one trygon prime
and...
THE DOOM (in one of those spore thingys)

we rolled for deployment and mission type
Pitched Battle
Annihilation

we roll the dice to see who goes first and...
he set up first


i set up and try to steal the turn (twice, because of the good ol' captain)



but no luck
and the game starts



FIRST TURN:
PART ONE:



not much happens this turn
he can't get his reserves quite yet
so most of my force is good
one death (my illegal command squad marine)
he shot something out of his thropes
one made his test
and the other one rolled...

YES!
he rolled his 3+ invul
made it
but a bit of knowledge crossed my mind
you have to reroll those
so he did
AND FAILED!
hope shines

FIRST TURN:
PART TWO:



my army slogs forward
drop pod deploys dreadnought

nothing really special happens
i kill a gaunt or two
but nothing game turning

SECOND TURN:
PART ONE:



here's where the hits the fan
as you can see he rolled for reinforcements
and they all came in
a mawloc in the middle of my tactical squad
THE DOOM right next to that
a trygon in the building next to Calgar
and another mawloc near my scouts
crap!
thankfully the genestealers didn't come in
THE DOOM made short work of my command squad
and my marines
IN THE ing RHINO!!!
I HATE IT SO MUCH!!!
anyways...
his gaunts ran in and cluster ed my scouts
so any chance of sniping those monstrous things is out of the picture

SECOND TURN:
PART TWO:



Sicarius moves in to attack that tyrant
it was going to get killed by THE DOOM eventually
so i might as well try to get a kill point
speaking of kill points
my land raider advanced on the thropes
and killed all three in one fell swoop


and as that's going on my scout are no more



i just picked him up with out rolling for him

THIRD TURN:
PART ONE:

unfortunately the batteries in my camera died
so no more pretty picture
sorry
the mawlocs destroyed my land raider and my whirlwind
the Captn' died a glorious death
and poof!
those genestealers arrived by Calgar

THIRD TURN:
PART TWO:

Calgar charged into combat with the trygon
with a whopping SEVEN attacks
taking out that beast and waving its carcass around like a flag

but at this point i was losing 5 to 2
i had enough
so i gave in

CONCLUSION:

all in all it was a great game
i had fun
even though i lost
i learned that i need more units like Calgar
and need to take care of THE DOOM as quickly as possible
i have learned from my fall and will be better next time

Nice report/pictures.

However, i feel that the lists are quite unbalanced.
The nids list appears to be quite competitive, while your SM lists does not.

You spent about 600 pts on HQ, without even a transport option, with an additional term squad + raider !
that's way too expensive, while you severely lack some special weapons (meltas in a general way) and can not afford them due to a lack of points.

calgar + sicarius does not appear effective (well, sicarius in kinda meh...); you'd better use an archivist for psychic defense and skip the command squads / honour guards.

in summary, it looks like a white dwarf list vs a tournament list... the outcome is kinda obvious.

Fluff list vs Tourney list.

Fluff gets trounced almost every single time.

Not bad for a first report. However, it is against forum rules to post individual points cost of every single item. You can post the total but not each individual item (this is due to copyright issues). For example, just go like this:

10 Tactical Squad - missile launcher, flamer, Rhino: 205pts


There's nothing wrong with bringing a fluffy list...lots of people do it. Just be aware that in this game there are also a lot of competitive players. You'll find out as you play more which of your units are good and which aren't so good and you'll probably adjust your army the more you play. That said, the new Nids can be pretty good, but they are by no means invincible. Keep at it.

Nice way to learn though. nice to see Calgar kick some Butt.

Yeah deffinatly bring some more stuff. Sicaris is a great Character and so is Calgar but bringing them both together is so expensive. I know that command squads and honor gaurd look good on paper but they really honestly just suck.

Blood Angels have the best one in my opinon with Wolf guard coming in second on a space marines list.

After playing this game what do you think you could have brought to be more competative? You can never go wrong with more troops. The drop podding dread was a nice unit but bye himself he wont do much for you.

Whirlwinds are not really worth the points. if you have one i wuold field a preditor. Even a Vindicator is better then a whirl wind.

I wish you could bring whirlwinds in squads of up to three then I think they would be worth the points.

squads of whirlwinds would be nice
i'm still tinkering though
i hardly ever run sicarius and calgar in the same army anymore
only for apoc battles

Sicarius loves him some drop pods.....

Those Tyranid warriors wouldn't break and run. They are synapse

Here are also 2 issues with the Tyranids that need a FAQ ASAP.

1) Doom cannot affect units embarked in a transport.

2) Mawlocs cannot put their blast templates on top of another model per Deepstrike rules. They can only scatter onto another model.

my sentiments exactly

jy2 wrote:Here are also 2 issues with the Tyranids that need a FAQ ASAP.

1) Doom cannot affect units embarked in a transport.

2) Mawlocs cannot put their blast templates on top of another model per Deepstrike rules. They can only scatter onto another model.

The way you have worded this seems to suggest that you do not believe either of these things can be done. At best there is a debate about them, neither is absolute. The compromise solution for the Doom in the INAT FAQ is you get a 4+ cover save against the wounds. The Mawloc DS'ing your troops is just a fact of life. Also, the Mawloc can only DS onto the ground floor of a building, he seemed to be on the top of it.

Best way to kill the Doom is to Melta it for the ID or hit it with a Power Fist in the face. Also, when playing 'nids it is almost always preferable to backup and let them come to you while you take potshots at them. I am glad you shared your game, it was interesting and I definitely like that you are playing a Smurfs army. A few Assault Terminators for your LRC, along with some more Rhinos and you will have a pretty competitive list to field for the rematch.

calypso2ts wrote:

jy2 wrote:Here are also 2 issues with the Tyranids that need a FAQ ASAP.

1) Doom cannot affect units embarked in a transport.

2) Mawlocs cannot put their blast templates on top of another model per Deepstrike rules. They can only scatter onto another model.

The way you have worded this seems to suggest that you do not believe either of these things can be done. At best there is a debate about them, neither is absolute. The compromise solution for the Doom in the INAT FAQ is you get a 4+ cover save against the wounds. The Mawloc DS'ing your troops is just a fact of life. Also, the Mawloc can only DS onto the ground floor of a building, he seemed to be on the top of it.

Best way to kill the Doom is to Melta it for the ID or hit it with a Power Fist in the face. Also, when playing 'nids it is almost always preferable to backup and let them come to you while you take potshots at them. I am glad you shared your game, it was interesting and I definitely like that you are playing a Smurfs army. A few Assault Terminators for your LRC, along with some more Rhinos and you will have a pretty competitive list to field for the rematch.

he was on the ground floor
it's just hard to see
and i'll keep in mind about THE DOOM

Mawlocs DS onto your troops is working the way the rules are written and intended.

Its like a shooting attack that occurs out of phase.

Hoping for GW to rule any other way is like hoping in one hand and crapping into the other...see which one fills up first.

Some drop pods might be helpful.

calypso2ts wrote:

jy2 wrote:Here are also 2 issues with the Tyranids that need a FAQ ASAP.

1) Doom cannot affect units embarked in a transport.

2) Mawlocs cannot put their blast templates on top of another model per Deepstrike rules. They can only scatter onto another model.

The way you have worded this seems to suggest that you do not believe either of these things can be done. At best there is a debate about them, neither is absolute. The compromise solution for the Doom in the INAT FAQ is you get a 4+ cover save against the wounds. The Mawloc DS'ing your troops is just a fact of life. Also, the Mawloc can only DS onto the ground floor of a building, he seemed to be on the top of it.

If the Doom can target units in a transport, then why can't it target both an IC and the squad he is attached to? After all, they are 2 separate units combined together. Better yet, by that logic, it should be able to affect both an IC and the unit he is attached to while they are in a transport. I have yet to see anyone play it like that. You just can't target a unit inside a transport. That is the defacto standard of 40K. In the Doom's special rule, it would have to specify something to the extent of "can target even units embarked inside a transport" in order for the power to work on them. Otherwise, Chaos can just lash units out of their transports. "Hey, I'm not using Lash on the vehicle itself. I'm lashing the passengers within, just like that Doom' power."

INAT isn't always right either. Like when they ruled that Jaws doesn't not need LOS or a target. Then the Space Wolf FAQ comes out and reverses that.

I'm with you in that the Intent for the Mawloc is that he's supposed to burst out from underneath and swallow models whole, but because of poor writing (or maybe it was poor editing), the Mawloc can't do that. It has to follow the Deepstrike rules and those rules say that you cannot put him on top or within 1" of another model. By RAW, the only way he can come out on top of them is if he scatters onto them. Quite dumb, but that's the RAW of it.

I really liked the pictures as they showed everything (I mean even the farthest corners) very clearly and you even displayed the nids' point of view. Good job on this report!

jy2 wrote:
If the Doom can target units in a transport...

The doom's abilities are not targeted, it simply says 'enemy units within x inches.'

jy2 wrote:
then why can't it target both an IC and the squad he is attached to? After all, they are 2 separate units combined together.

The IC is joined to the other unit and therefore part of it. From the game's perspective they are one and the same until he leaves, unless otherwise specified.

jy2 wrote:
I have yet to see anyone play it like that. You just can't target a unit inside a transport.

I have yet to see it not played by the Rules as Written. Also, see above the ability is not targeted it just states to measure range to the unit.

jy2 wrote:
Otherwise, Chaos can just lash units out of their transports. "Hey, I'm not using Lash on the vehicle itself. I'm lashing the passengers within, just like that Doom' power."

Lash is targeted and is treated like a shooting attack. If you can draw LoS, required for shooting, then go ahead and Lash them. This is a poor analogy.

jy2 wrote:
INAT isn't always right either. Like when they ruled that Jaws doesn't not need LOS or a target. Then the Space Wolf FAQ comes out and reverses that.

INAT is neither right nor wrong. It is a set of house rules created and used by one of the premier tournaments in the U.S. The GW FAQ is also a set of house rules, and based on printed content both rulings are legitimate. Generally INAT does keep itself consistent with GW FAQ's, but that does not make it wrong.

Many players use it to resolve rules issues as a standard. I mention it because his opponent in this game used the Doom on the units in the transport, and if he is going to play it that way, then maybe the SM player would like to take a cover save against it.

jy2 wrote:
I'm with you in that the Intent for the Mawloc is that he's supposed to...Quite dumb, but that's the RAW of it.

There is a debate on this from a R.A.W. perspective as well, I have read a significant amount of it on this site. It cannot be concluded definitely either way. Also, I cannot comprehend the inconsistency of stating a Mawloc cannot DS onto units using a 'strict' R.A.W. interpretation (even though you think R.A.I. it should be able to) but then denying the Doom the chance to affect units in transports when R.A.W. it is ironclad clear that it can do so.

For all the people saying that mech trumps nids because 5th Ed is all about the mechanized army, there is a lot of whining about a unit that can affect enemy units in a vehicle. I just find it ironic

As for the Mawloc, RAI is obvious. The author has even posted about using the Mawloc to DS into an enemy unit. If a marine player ever tried to say the Mawloc couldn't DS into his unit because of RAW, I would just say his marines can't fire at me because you can't draw LOS from their eyes, as they have helmets and not eyes. It's RAW...

calypso2ts wrote:
The doom's abilities are not targeted, it simply says 'enemy units within x inches.'

The IC is joined to the other unit and therefore part of it. From the game's perspective they are one and the same until he leaves, unless otherwise specified.

Even if he is joined to another unit, much as a squad embarked is "joined" to the vehicle, he is still an "enemy units within x inches". It's very inconsistent to say an IC because he is in another unit cannot be "affected" whereas an unit in a vehicle can. They're not even on the table! I'd have to say no to that....and I'm a tyranid player myself. You just can't affect units in a vehicle unless a rule explicitly allows you to. That's just the mechanics of the game. Same as a shooting attack always need LOS and to check range after declaring unless some special rule says otherwise.

calypso2ts wrote:
Lash is targeted and is treated like a shooting attack. If you can draw LoS, required for shooting, then go ahead and Lash them. This is a poor analogy.

Is it a poor analogy really? To say that all units within x inches are affected is also an indirect way of saying all units within x inches are targeted (though without the need for LOS). If unit xyz is affected by unit abc, then xyz is a target of abc just by virtue of being in its range. So if the power can "target" (affect) a unit within a vehicle, why can't other powers do so also?

calypso2ts wrote:
INAT is neither right nor wrong. It is a set of house rules created and used by one of the premier tournaments in the U.S. The GW FAQ is also a set of house rules, and based on printed content both rulings are legitimate. Generally INAT does keep itself consistent with GW FAQ's, but that does not make it wrong.

Many players use it to resolve rules issues as a standard. I mention it because his opponent in this game used the Doom on the units in the transport, and if he is going to play it that way, then maybe the SM player would like to take a cover save against it.

Whereas INAT has been helpful a lot of the times in resolving many issues, I mentioned it because I believe INAT is incorrect on this issue. Just as I disagreed with its rulings on the Space Wolves Jaws of the World Wolf. But I guess we'll just have to wait for the official Nid FAQ to come out before debating any more about INAT. There's no sense in debating over a third party's "compromise opinion".

calypso2ts wrote:
There is a debate on this from a R.A.W. perspective as well, I have read a significant amount of it on this site. It cannot be concluded definitely either way. Also, I cannot comprehend the inconsistency of stating a Mawloc cannot DS onto units using a 'strict' R.A.W. interpretation (even though you think R.A.I. it should be able to) but then denying the Doom the chance to affect units in transports when R.A.W. it is ironclad clear that it can do so.

Honestly, on this issue, I would and have let my opponents play the Mawloc as RAI as I also think that is how it should be played. But someone actually pulled the RAW on me when I used it as well. It all comes down to discussing it with your opponent before the game to come to an understanding. I always do that whenever a Mawloc or Doom is used in any of the games I play. However, when you're just not familiar with the rules, as in the case of the OP, you will get taken advantage of. He will deepstrike his Mawlocs on top of your units and Doom them in vehicles with or without your knowledge of how the rules work, and I don't think that is fair.

I don't believe units in transports should be able to be targeted. Unless it is specifically stated that this ability can do that I would never assume that it could. It may seem vague but long standing rules should still be the guide in these instances. I think people are just trying to squeeze a bit more bang for their buck out of the new nids.

Gridge wrote:I don't believe units in transports should be able to be targeted.

*sigh* I assume you haven't read the thread you are posting in.

jy2 wrote:

calypso2ts wrote:

calypso2ts wrote:
Lash is targeted and is treated like a shooting attack. If you can draw LoS, required for shooting, then go ahead and Lash them. This is a poor analogy.

Is it a poor analogy really? To say that all units within x inches are affected is also an indirect way of saying all units within x inches are targeted (though without the need for LOS). If unit xyz is affected by unit abc, then xyz is a target of abc just by virtue of being in its range. So if the power can "target" (affect) a unit within a vehicle, why can't other powers do so also?

"Target" and "affect" are not interchangeable in the way you are suggesting. Area Affect abilities don't require LOS and all the other stuff required to "target" a unit.

And honestly, the DoM is really not a big deal whether or not it can hurt units in vehicles. I'd rather see the Doom instead of another unit of Hive Guard.