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Having found nothing of help in the rulebook I would like to ask Dakka on either pointing me in the right direction or giving advice on how this scenario would/should be played out.

Ok, picture the scene ... A squad of 10 Marines are moved between 2 flat roofed buildings, these building are compeltely flat and are 3inches high and for arguements sake they are 1foot x 1foot in width and length. The squad are literally pressed up against the side of the left hand building as they are being moved through. (like an alleyway if you will)

On my opponent's move he sends his 10xRaptor squad(the ones with jump packs) onto the roof to the edge of the building where my Marines are.

My question is that he assualts the squad but neither of us know how we should act, do we....?
(1) Class it as a failed assualt because they cannot get into base to base contact
(2) Move all raptors as close to the edge of the building and assume that they are in base to base ignoring height different as if it wasn't there
(3) Move the Marines enough to allow one or more Raptors to get into base to base
(4) Move them in front or behind the marine squad and then pile in, treating the building edge as impassable terrain and making them go around it onto the floor in order to assualt
(5) Something else entirely (please explain)


Many thanks to you all

Were your marines in a building or a ruin which happened to be intact?

If they were in an intact ruin, then the ruin rules basically say "Close enough is good enough" if you're being reasonable. Then again, there are several questions that need to be decided because the rules say you must decide them by mutual agreement: Can assaulting troops go through walls? Do models need ladders to move between levels? Etc.

If they were in a building, then the raptors would not have been allowed to land on the roof and no assault against your troops would have been possible. On the other hand, the raptors would have been allowed to assault the building (with the expectation that you and your opponent agreed on the armor value for the building before starting the game).

Neither, they were moving between two intact buildings. And for arguements sake I'm going to say that these building cannot be entered. Doors were barricaded etc

Marines are pressed tightly against the wall of one of the buildings, and the Raptors landed on top of that building and from the roof which is 3" high fromthe ground they then wanted to assualt the Marines.

Then I'm sorry, I don't understand the situation you're describing.

Did you two forget to decide how models were supposed to get down or get up to the roofs of the terrain pieces?

From what I understand, the buildings were essentially impassable terrain, however as skimmers and jump infantry (I think) can land on certain pieces of impassable terrain, his raptors landed on the building, however you can not move on or off the building without using your jump pack, and you are not allowed to use your jump pack in the final stages of an assault.

I'm sorry I don't know how to fix this, it's simply a clarification for others who don't understand.

HellsGuardian316 wrote:Having found nothing of help in the rulebook I would like to ask Dakka on either pointing me in the right direction or giving advice on how this scenario would/should be played out.

Ok, picture the scene ... A squad of 10 Marines are moved between 2 flat roofed buildings, these building are compeltely flat and are 3inches high and for arguements sake they are 1foot x 1foot in width and length. The squad are literally pressed up against the side of the left hand building as they are being moved through. (like an alleyway if you will)

On my opponent's move he sends his 10xRaptor squad(the ones with jump packs) onto the roof to the edge of the building where my Marines are.

My question is that he assualts the squad but neither of us know how we should act, do we....?
(1) Class it as a failed assualt because they cannot get into base to base contact
(2) Move all raptors as close to the edge of the building and assume that they are in base to base ignoring height different as if it wasn't there
(3) Move the Marines enough to allow one or more Raptors to get into base to base
(4) Move them in front or behind the marine squad and then pile in, treating the building edge as impassable terrain and making them go around it onto the floor in order to assualt
(5) Something else entirely (please explain)


Many thanks to you all

Let me diagram this, to make sure I understand.
R|M |
R|M |
R|M |
R|M |
R|M |

R=Raptors, M=Marines, straight lines = walls.

So, the Marines are not actually IN impassable terrain, but BETWEEN two pieces of impassable terrain, on which the Raptors (as Jump Infantry) could land. Correct?

If they were within an inch of the models (roughly arms length) I'd say (2). If not, I'd say (4).

Can't back it up with rules though. I suspect this is not answered in the rule book and so relies on players being amicable.

Incidentally, did this actually happen, or are you just trying to break the game?

A similar thing happened when I played DoW on a really small table, I got forced into the back 6" with my 2000 point army, and i had some men squished between buildings, causing all sorts of movement shenanigans. :(
Don't quite know what you would do in your situation however.

He stated that the buildings were about 3" high, which means that although the models can just barely make within 1" of the enemy, none can get into base contact. The defender makes a react move as normal. And then nothing happens, because there are no models none of them attack in base contact or within 2" of a friendly in base contact. So the fight is a draw (unless one side has some sort of wound-adding effect) and both can make 6" Pile In! moves in an attempt to get into base contact. If they still cannot make this happen, then both sides consolidate d6" and you both pretend that Games Workshop would never allow such a silly thing to happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for a game I were running, though, I would say LET THE SLAUGHTER BEGIN!!! (as per 3 probably) and then make up some badass morale effect to represent how scary it is to be running through an alley and have Chaos Space Marines falling on you.

But that's strictly non-RAW and something you would only do with buddies.

The JI squad cannot move into base to base contact with any model, therefore NO assault moves are made and NO combat occurs.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The JI squad cannot move into base to base contact with any model, therefore NO assault moves are made and NO combat occurs.

While this is absolutely technically true, the answer is not nearly that simple when applied to an actual game.

Yes, the rules technically require (at least the first assaulting model to be in) base contact in order for an assault to occur, but the reality is most people don't play this way. If you *do* choose to play by the strict RAW then you need to apply this rule in all situations, meaning that if ANY kind of terrain is blocking the base of the closest enemy model in the unit you're assaulting then the first model in your unit will be unable to get into base contact and the assault will fail.

A good visual representation of this in the INAT FAQ, on page 8 (RB.34B.01). A model behind a simple barrel will technically make an assault fail unless the assaulter has enough charge distance to make a 'shortest route' around the obstacle.

Again, it is *fine* to play this way, provided you are always consistent and you should probably mention it to your opponent before the game as most people don't tend to play this way.

However, if you are one of those people who tend to play that a model can assault 'over' an obstruction (like a barrel) even though they can't technically get into 'base contact' with the enemy, then you would definitely want to stay consistent in this situation and allow the jump infantry to assault 'down' off the building, even though they can't technically be placed into base contact with the enemy models.


However, no matter which way you tend to play, the non-jump infantry marines would not be able to assault the Raptors, as they are unable to move up the impassable terrain to reach them.

BeRzErKeR wrote:
Let me diagram this, to make sure I understand.
R|M |
R|M |
R|M |
R|M |
R|M |

R=Raptors, M=Marines, straight lines = walls.

Well the raptors need to try to get into base to base contact- why are they not trying to assault from the mouth of the alley? sure only 1-2 models can fight at a time, but if you fight in confined spaces...

So for me this depends whether or not the raptors can scale down the walls (via a ladder etc) and assault through the entrance to the alley.

Jihallah wrote:

Well the raptors need to try to get into base to base contact- why are they not trying to assault from the mouth of the alley? sure only 1-2 models can fight at a time, but if you fight in confined spaces...

So for me this depends whether or not the raptors can scale down the walls (via a ladder etc) and assault through the entrance to the alley.

Ah yes, I totally brain-farted on this one. Jump Infantry make their assault moves like normal infantry so they would absolutely be unable to assault off of the impassable terrain! So no matter which 'way' you play in this situation the assault could not occur unless some of the Raptors were not up on the impassable terrain at the start of the assault phase.

Yakface - phew, glad I wasnt missing something - the terrain was impassable during the assault phase, so they couldnt move.

However, even with some of the models off the (impassable) terrain would they not be restricted by the "move as slowest member of the unit" rules? I.E. some of them cannot move, therefore the assault would fail regardless?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yakface - phew, glad I wasnt missing something - the terrain was impassable during the assault phase, so they couldnt move.

However, even with some of the models off the (impassable) terrain would they not be restricted by the "move as slowest member of the unit" rules? I.E. some of them cannot move, therefore the assault would fail regardless?

I don't think that applies in this case as technically the models who are unable to move into base contact with the enemies aren't unable to move, they just aren't able to reach the enemy (i.e. their movement rate is still what it normally is). And in fact, if some of the models DO reach base contact, then depending on whether or not you're applying the 'vertical combat rules' that apply to ruins to this situation (as many people tend to do even if it isn't strictly in the rules) then the guys up on the impassable terrain could still theoretically end up being engaged in the combat that round.

Jihallah wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:
Let me diagram this, to make sure I understand.
R|M |
R|M |
R|M |
R|M |
R|M |

R=Raptors, M=Marines, straight lines = walls.

Well the raptors need to try to get into base to base contact- why are they not trying to assault from the mouth of the alley? sure only 1-2 models can fight at a time, but if you fight in confined spaces...

So for me this depends whether or not the raptors can scale down the walls (via a ladder etc) and assault through the entrance to the alley.

Yes, spot on with both of the quoted text. We aren't treating those specific buildings as impassable and we are allowing models to climb up and down the sides costing because the buildings have multiply grab holds for models to hold onto. And as Assualt Marines(Raptors) cover the last 6" on foot it seemed logical that they would be climbing down when assualting. As the building is 3" high then it costs models 3" to either climb up or down, and as the Raptor squad was onthe edge of the building they were well within the 6" charging range even accounting for them climbing down.

Soup and a roll wrote:If they were within an inch of the models (roughly arms length) I'd say (2). If not, I'd say (4).

Can't back it up with rules though. I suspect this is not answered in the rule book and so relies on players being amicable.

Incidentally, did this actually happen, or are you just trying to break the game?

This is the same issue I had, that although the rules glanced over similar things there was nothing to give me any direct guidance. And yes, it has happened in two of our games so far and because of the buildings we are using currently it will happen again. The first time it happened we decided that it was more feasible that the defenders would be pushed back to make room for the attackers to fit models in base to base. Then on reflection after the game we decided that it wasn't the ideal way to play it so the next time it happened we agreed that they'd move as close to the edge as humanly possible and we would then decide which models would count as being in base to base. But again, on reflection we weren't happy with the way it was done but we didn't want the game to get bogged down for hours trying to make a choice so we made the call to keep the game going and ask on the infinite place of wisdom that is dakka.

yakface wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:The JI squad cannot move into base to base contact with any model, therefore NO assault moves are made and NO combat occurs.

While this is absolutely technically true, the answer is not nearly that simple when applied to an actual game.

Yes, the rules technically require (at least the first assaulting model to be in) base contact in order for an assault to occur, but the reality is most people don't play this way. If you *do* choose to play by the strict RAW then you need to apply this rule in all situations, meaning that if ANY kind of terrain is blocking the base of the closest enemy model in the unit you're assaulting then the first model in your unit will be unable to get into base contact and the assault will fail.

A good visual representation of this in the INAT FAQ, on page 8 (RB.34B.01). A model behind a simple barrel will technically make an assault fail unless the assaulter has enough charge distance to make a 'shortest route' around the obstacle.

Again, it is *fine* to play this way, provided you are always consistent and you should probably mention it to your opponent before the game as most people don't tend to play this way.

However, if you are one of those people who tend to play that a model can assault 'over' an obstruction (like a barrel) even though they can't technically get into 'base contact' with the enemy, then you would definitely want to stay consistent in this situation and allow the jump infantry to assault 'down' off the building, even though they can't technically be placed into base contact with the enemy models.


However, no matter which way you tend to play, the non-jump infantry marines would not be able to assault the Raptors, as they are unable to move up the impassable terrain to reach them.

We mostly play by RAW. So using your example of the barrel I'd have told my opponent to assualt "around" the barrel. So in that sense although we would be consistant in our ruling neither of us felt that a true RAW ruling would work or be realistic for the scenario we're stuck with.


Thanks to everyone who has posted, the general outcome I'm getting from people is it can be done one of two ways.
(1) Strict RAW, no base to base means no assualt
(2) Stand them at the top and agree with opponent which models are in base to base

Incidently (and curse me for not bringing it to work or remembering the page number) in the main rulebook when discussing assualts in ruins, it details *that because of the unstable modelling on some ruins yiou may not be able to place models in base to base, so opponents need to agree which models are and are not in base to base*

I read that last night and although it hints at a solution I don't think it directly applies to my situation as the models are in theory on a stable platform, without any physical room to get into base to base without them hovering above the Marine models, or resting on them.

HellsGuardian316 wrote:
We mostly play by RAW. So using your example of the barrel I'd have told my opponent to assualt "around" the barrel. So in that sense although we would be consistant in our ruling neither of us felt that a true RAW ruling would work or be realistic for the scenario we're stuck with.


Thanks to everyone who has posted, the general outcome I'm getting from people is it can be done one of two ways.
(1) Strict RAW, no base to base means no assualt
(2) Stand them at the top and agree with opponent which models are in base to base

Incidently (and curse me for not bringing it to work or remembering the page number) in the main rulebook when discussing assualts in ruins, it details *that because of the unstable modelling on some ruins yiou may not be able to place models in base to base, so opponents need to agree which models are and are not in base to base*

I read that last night and although it hints at a solution I don't think it directly applies to my situation as the models are in theory on a stable platform, without any physical room to get into base to base without them hovering above the Marine models, or resting on them.

Fair enough, but just to let you know if you play with the strict RAW it becomes fairly commonplace to have situations where there are units that can't be assaulted. Since the first model in an assaulting unit has to assault the nearest model in the enemy unit they're assaulting, if that first model is placed behind any kind of raised terrain feature (like a barrel, rocks, etc) and then flanked by a couple other enemy models in the unit who are slightly further back, that formation can't be assaulted that turn. Of course next turn you can then get your assaulting models around the side of the formation and assault another model, but that leaves a whole turn of the unit trying to assault getting shot up by the opponent.

And if you have a really long wall (like the Imperial walls sold for planetstrike) and you have guys lined up all along the backside of that wall, you have a completely unassaultable formation from infantry (and other ground moving models). You can't move your models over the wall in the movement phase as you'd be coming within 1" of the enemy on the other side of the wall and in the assault phase you can't get your first assaulting model into base contact with the closest enemy model (assuming the models holding the wall are kept close together).

I believe you CAN play with this interpretation, but it just makes things really, really, really rough on armies that rely on assaults depending on what kind of terrain you have on your table.


I think there is a really strong reason why I've never seen anyone play this way, but to each their own!

Thanks very much, I'll show this thread to my opponent this saturday before the start of our game and we'll discuss how we will play it from now on using whats been said here to help us.

Because of the terrain we use, assualts have never been an issue before except for when we started using these specific buildings so I'm leaning more toward saying that units cannot climb up or down as they are too steep and slippery, and therefore the jump pack units can still take advantage of this terrain, but cannot assualt without first using their movement phase to "jump" down, and then they would be able to assualt on the same ground level.

Seems the easiest solution as then there's no arguments

Many thanks to all, and much appriciated

That or just call them ruins, allow everyone to climb the 3", and use the ruin assault rules.

Gorkamorka wrote:That or just call them ruins, allow everyone to climb the 3", and use the ruin assault rules.

Pretty much this. The 40k Building rules are a complete nightmare and best avoided.

Gwar! wrote:

Gorkamorka wrote:That or just call them ruins, allow everyone to climb the 3", and use the ruin assault rules.

Pretty much this. The 40k Building rules are a complete nightmare and best avoided.

This.

My FLGS has lots of building/ruin terrain pieces and we always count everything as multi-level ruins.

running them as buildings/bunkers just makes everything way too confusing.

Gorkamorka wrote:That or just call them ruins, allow everyone to climb the 3", and use the ruin assault rules.

I'm going to re-read the section on ruins again tonight just to see how doing this would affect how the buildings work, but otherwise seems like a good alternative, cheers

Yeah, using the Ruins rules instead tends to make things work cleaner and easier.