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Greetings Dakka,

I have played my third game against my nephew. It was a little game, 275 points each, orks & SM using mostly the AOBR set. Here are my very, very noobish questions, which I apologize for. I do have the main rulebook, the codexes for both armies, and have read the INAT - I'm just misunderstanding some concepts, I think. Is there a more simplistic verison of the INAT available somewhere?

Rules I think I'm getting right, and wish to doublecheck:

1a.) Standard space marines cannot save against a PK warboss (s10) - assuming 4 hits and 4 wounds, thats 4 kills per round, instant death.

1b.) Standard orks cannot save against bolters.

1c.) Firing a frag missile into a mass of orks in unit A will also wound orks in unit B, if they are under the template, even if they weren't the target.

1d.) A librarian in terminator armor uses the Terminator statline as if they were a terminator, but use their psychic powers as normal.

Rules I'm iffy on:

2a.) When assaulting, Orks are within 6 inches of SM. The SM can close to assault with the Orks and strike first. MUST the marines close? Can they move backwards and shoot instead?

Rules I don't understand at all:

3a.) Why is the Deffkopta toughness 4 (5) ?

Tactics I have determined so far:

4a.) A librarian in terminator armor with a combi-plasmabolter turned out to be not a wise use of 160 points vs pure footslogging boys.

4b.) There is no reason to have boys replace their choppa/sluggas with shootas.

As always thank you Dakka for your insight.

Ouze wrote:Greetings Dakka,

I have played my third game against my nephew. It was a little game, 275 points each, orks & SM using mostly the AOBR set. Here are my very, very noobish questions, which I apologize for. I do have the main rulebook, the codexes for both armies, and have read the INAT - I'm just misunderstanding some concepts, I think. Is there a more simplistic verison of the INAT available somewhere?

Rules I think I'm getting right, and wish to doublecheck:

1a.) Standard space marines cannot save against a PK warboss (s10) - assuming 4 hits and 4 wounds, thats 4 kills per round, instant death.

1b.) Standard orks cannot save against bolters.

1c.) Firing a frag missile into a mass of orks in unit A will also wound orks in unit B, if they are under the template, even if they weren't the target.

1d.) A librarian in terminator armor uses the Terminator statline as if they were a terminator, but use their psychic powers as normal.

Rules I'm iffy on:

2a.) When assaulting, Orks are within 6 inches of SM. The SM can close to assault with the Orks and strike first. MUST the marines close? Can they move backwards and shoot instead?

Rules I don't understand at all:

3a.) Why is the Deffkopta toughness 4 (5) ?

Tactics I have determined so far:

4a.) A librarian in terminator armor with a combi-plasmabolter turned out to be not a wise use of 160 points vs pure footslogging boys.

4b.) There is no reason to have boys replace their choppa/sluggas with shootas.

As always thank you Dakka for your insight.

1a.) Correct.
1b.) Correct.
1c.) It will Hit the orks in Unit B if it scatters into them. You still need to roll to wound of course.
1d.) No. They use their own statline. All that changes is that they now have Terminator Armour and follow the rules given in the Terminator Armour rules.

2a.) No. Units do not HAVE to assault unless they have a special rule saying they must.

3a.) What that means is the Deffkopta is Toughness 5, but suffers Instant Death when wounded by Weapons of Strangth 8 or more. In other words, it is always Toughness 5, and always wounds against it as if it is Toughness 5, but is Toughness 4 for determining if it suffers Instant Death.

4a) Correct.
4b.) There is plenty of reason! Shoota Boyz still get 3 Attacks on the charge, and have an 18" range Assault 2 Gun. A Mob of 30 pumps out 60 shots a turn, and can do so outside of assault range of most units. Orks may not hit a lot, but when you have lots of Dakka, that doesn't matter!

1a) A pk ignores armor saves, so standard marines will be crushed accordingly (althogh certain models/wargear allow invulnerable saves which can be taken in 99% of cases)
1b) standard orks have a save of 6+. A bolters AP is 5, so any armor save of 5+ or 6+ would be negated. Although if your orks have 'eavy armor (4+ save) and are in cover you can claim a save.
1c) the template hits what it hits, wether it be random orks or even marines on the same side.
1d) The terminator librarian uses the librarian statline, however his armor save is improved from a 3+ to a 2+ (with 5+ invul), some of the weapon choices change and you gain all the benefits of wearing terminator armor.

2a) You do not have to charge an enemy (unless you have the rage USR) so the marines could move back and fire at you

3a) the ork driving it is T4, however the added protection of all that metal makes him T4(5) (just like the SM bikes, etc) so when rolling to would him, roll against his T of 5, however if hit with anything double his T of 4 (so S8 or higher) it will cause instant death

4a) The 1-shot plasma could be very usefull against any trucks or meganobs (2+ save orks)
4b) shoota boys loose the +1A for 2 ccw but still have 2 base attacks +1 on the charge. On the other hand, you gain 2 shots each and an increased range, your BS is not very high but 30 boys with 2 shots each is 60 dice...

ill do as many as i can....

1a: correct.
1b: correct (as long as they have a 5+ armour sv.).
1c: correct.
1d: They use the librarian stat line but have a 2+ armour sv. and a 5+ inv. sv.
2a: If your assaulted you cant back away, your locked. (but you don't have to assault if within six inches.)
3a: Because its orks (4) in a deffkopta which makes them up to 5.
4a: Agreed
4b: not sure bout that one, check the codex tho.

I hope that's right,

Alexgm101.

To help clarify Question (1d and 3a)

(1d)
When equiping Terminator armour to a charactor/model it upgrades certain abilities as detailed in the codex. For example, it gives a 5+ invulnerable save to the model, it also allows you to move and shoot as if stationary. It does not mean you replace the statline of a model with that of a terminator, the fact that in most cases both can be similar is mere coincidence

(3a)
The value of 4(5) is to say then the vehicle they are in, be it bike, deffkopter or other, has a toughness of 5 when you roll to wound against it (except if a rule for a specific weapon says otherwise)

So you wound the bike using the 5 stat, however the rider of the vehicle still only has a toughness of 4 as the rider is exposed unlike an enclosed cockpit of a Crisis suit or similar where you cannot get to the rider without going through the suit for example, so if the weapon being shot was a Space Marine Lascannon for example, you'd roll to wound as if it was toughness 5, and if wounded, the weapon would cause instant death as it is double the strenght of the rider which is only a 4.

Hope that helps

And just to add to 1)

The actual strength isnt important here when you are only dealing with 1 wound models. The reason Marines dont get a save against a powerklaw is that it is a Power Weapon, so ignores armour saves in close combat.

If instead the nob was S10 with the magic crushing hammer of doom, but the MCHoD was NOT a power weapon, then any marine wounded would still get an armour save.

The only time Instant Death is used is *after* you have failed any save you are allowed - if you had more than 1wound, and S>=2T, then you would lose all remaining wounds. Just because you are hit by an ID attack doesnt automaticaly mean you dont get an armour save however - you look at the actual weapon to determine that, not the strength value.

Wow, thanks for all the information, which I really appreciate for my next game. My nephew will have his rage somewhat assuaged to know that yes, it was legal for my rocket launcher to scatter from his clump of boyz directly atop his deffkopta.

I didn't know that boys with Shootas had more then one attack - that does make a difference.

I also was totally misunderstanding the ID rule - it only essentially applies to multiwound models, then?

And, there is no armor save in close combat for ANY power weapon? That, I also did not know.

1) SHootas have the statline given, i.e. Assautl 2 (if you use "shots" here, as "attacks" normally refer to the number of swings made in Close COmbat ) 0 that should be in the AoBR quick reference guide. Pistols are assault 1 - so while sluggas gain you an attack, and areprobably best if your boyz are in a trukk, the extra range and shots from a big shoota boyz mob makes a huge dent in the enemy.

2) ID is only ever important for multiwound models, as it requires you to have taken a wound already - if you notice it talks about "taken an unsaved wound..." - for a 1W model the first wound removes them, so the rest is irrelevant.

3) Yes, Power Weapons are like giving a ranged weapon AP2 - armour saves dont work against it. ote: CC attacks *dont* have an AP, that was just an analogy

Well, thank you all for not only answering my questions, answering questions I didn't even yet know I had.

Ouze wrote:Well, thank you all for not only answering my questions, answering questions I didn't even yet know I had.

We aim to please "que's A-Team music and drives off into the sunset" I love it when a plan comes together

OK, so now I'm trying to figure out whether or not to take Shoota Boys or Slugga Boys. I did a search, and located a 2 year old thread on this very discussion, which said in part:

Ravenous D wrote:Shootas are better off for foot sloggin and sluggas are better for trukk mounted.

If you break down the numbers with the shoota boyz they can pump out 3 turns of shooting before getting into combat with 3 attacks while slugga boyz *might* get one turn of shooting and have 4 attacks in combat.

Shoota boy over 3 turns: 6 Bs2 S4 shots + 3 attacks in CC
Slugga boy over 3 turns: 1 Bs2 S4 shot + 4 attacks in CC

I'm clear on the first parts of those equations, but not the latters. Where are these "3" cc attacks coming from on the Shootas, or the 4 on the sluggas? The statline for Ork boyz show 2 attacks. I guess you could shoot twice and then assault for 2 melee attacks, which is 4 attacks - is this what they mean? And the Sluggas - should they be getting an attack for their pistols? If so, I've been (erroneously) skipping it in CC.

Once you lock in close combat, assuming that both parties survive and neither falls back, you just keep repeating CC without a shooting round - right?

Ouze wrote:


I'm clear on the first parts of those equations, but not the latters. Where are these "3" cc attacks coming from on the Shootas, or the 4 on the sluggas? The statline for Ork boyz show 2 attacks. I guess you could shoot twice and then assault for 2 melee attacks, which is 4 attacks - is this what they mean? And the Sluggas - should they be getting an attack for their pistols? If so, I've been (erroneously) skipping it in CC.

Once you lock in close combat, assuming that both parties survive and neither falls back, you just keep repeating CC without a shooting round - right?

1) The "3" attacks include the 2 attacks in their profile, and the +1 attack bonus on the turn they charge. This bonus will go away the next turn, and if they're still in close combat, they will only have two attacks.
2) The sluggas are pistols, which count as close combat weapons in assault. This means slugga boys are armed with 2 close combat weapons - their sluggas and choppas - and so they will always get a +1 Attack bonus for having two CCWs. That gives them three attacks, and if they charged on that turn, 4 Attacks.

Awesome, thank you. I'm sad to say after re-reading my original post, at least 2 separate people told me that and I didn't catch the significance of it. I played a lot of MW clix without any problem but this game makes me feel stupid, often.