Pre Heresy counts as......?

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**whalemusic360**

I am going to be starting up an Emperor's Children Pre Heresy army.
My question is, do Pre Heresy marines usually count as stuff from the C:SM or S:CSM? I'm not sure where to got with it, but i thought a CSM army might be a change up.
Thanks for the input!

**calgar 2.5**

I would go with the SM codex for that.

**Vindicator#9**

Either as i have seen both but seeing as there are no sonic type weaponry in SM codex i would say you are better off in CSM codex. The one reason is if you use Doom Siren i cant think of anything that can be equipped on the champ in the SM codex that would work.

**Darkness**

remeber the codex astartes was not made until after the Heresey. So your safe with either one. However, I would believe that ATSKNF and Combat Tactics would better represent a pre heresey chaos army.

**whalemusic360**

I guess I should have mentioned, I have large DA and BA armys and small UM and RS forces already existing.

The reason I'm planning on doing this is because I ended up with on of the Primarch models (non-GW) for Fulgrim, as well as Sanguinius and Lion el Johnson, but he is very pre-heresy aka not a snake demon thing

**Brother SRM**

I would go for Chaos Marines. They've got more pre-heresy equipment like autocannons lying around.

**Vindicator#9**

Yep we got some old crap.

**KingCracker**

Vindicator#9 wrote:Yep we got some old crap.

Brother SRM wrote:I would go for Chaos Marines. They've got more pre-heresy equipment like autocannons lying around.

Indeed. CSM have all the old weapons (apparently they are too dense to pick up modern weapons, or hell make them for that matter) and so a Chaos dex makes more sense for being pre heresy. Enjoy the build man

**whalemusic360**

Ok, so then heres my next question, how would I do something like obliterators? Just a tech marine? And defilers just less chaos-y?

**ph34r**

Defilers did not exist in any form pre heresy.

The only equivalent to Obliterators pre heresy would be Adeptus Mechanicus robots, and i'm pretty sure those were primarily chaos sided, but whatever.

**Borris the Blade**

I would advise running magnets on the weapons. Thus you can quickly switch from bolters Pre- Heresy to their Sonic Weapons ala Chaos Codex and have a 2 for 1 army. I would go with SM Codex of your choice on what you think they were and use normal marines then make a order through GW for their shoulder pads http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat180006&prodId=prod1110170&rootCatGameStyle= .

Another option if you are a serious modeler, is to convert all your marines into a retro pre-heresy look. Don't worry too much about fluff. Since I have been playing since Rogue Trader in 1987, Fluff changes all the time, especially the telling of Horus's fight with the Emperor or World Eaters that used to have Librarians, Chaplains, Tech Marines, Medics in Slaves to Darkness.

**candy.man**

Depends on what type of pre-heresy army you’re trying to build. Pre heresy, pre-chaos, use the SM Dex. Pre heresy, chaos influence, either the CSM or SM Dex (but you would probably have to avoid a lot of the chaos units and sonic weapons to stay in line with the fluff). Personally I would suggest using the regular SM rules as they would not yet be the true traitor EC chaos space marines we have today.

In terms of what models to use, if you really wanted an ultra pre-heresy look, you can use chaos models as they have the rivets and whatnot that pre-heresy armour had but you would have to shave off the chaos symbols and stuff and use vanilla marine helmets. You would also need to buy extra plain jane chaos shoulder pads (the plain shoulder pads without the chaos star on them) as the average CSM box does not have enough plain shoulder pads. Another idea would be to just use Vanilla marines with CSM backpacks (chaos symbols shaven off) and CSM plain jane shoulder pads (for the rivets. Or you could just greenstuff rivets onto the SM shoulder pads)

**Gitsplitta**

Quick question: Was the 2nd founding before or after the herasy?

**Soladrin**

Vindicator#9 wrote:Either as i have seen both but seeing as there are no sonic type weaponry in SM codex i would say you are better off in CSM codex. The one reason is if you use Doom Siren i cant think of anything that can be equipped on the champ in the SM codex that would work.

Umm PRE heresy they didn't have sonic weaponry either, those were made/designed at the start/during the heresy itself and all the other. So I would go for C:SM due to the fact that most stuff in C:CSM has to many bogus stuff that really wouldn't fit pre heresy.

This point is all moot if you meant EC during the heresy.

**Corporal Redshirt**

Gitsplitta wrote:Quick question: Was the 2nd founding before or after the herasy?

It was after the heresy when the remaining loyal legions were split up into the different chapters

**03bbrevenge**

Gitsplitta wrote:Quick question: Was the 2nd founding before or after the herasy?

post, it was when the legions were split into chapters

**Smashotron**

Use the CSM book, you will get a better "Pre-Heresy" feel from the models. Obviously don't pick things like Spawn or Possessed. Obliterators could be done using Thunderfire like artillery models, no crew, or AdMech robots/soldiers. I would suggest using that Fulgrim model as a Daemon Prince if you really want a DP, otherwise don't field a DP unless you can make it look Pre-Heresy and human.

**Alpharius**

I actually think that the new SW codex makes a good basis for a Pre-Heresy SM army, for many Legions...

**whalemusic360**

I think Im going to do a CSM alternate reality kinda thing. Like id there was no heresy, that way I can use some things without trying to explain it. I really am going to be doing a CSM that looks like purple SM I guess. Maybe. Idk, I'm indecisive today.

**Praxiss**

I would probably go with SM models but use the chaos codex. As it is pre-heresy you won't really be able to use any Marks, 'Blitz, Noise weapons or Defilers.

but the other weapons options seem pre-heresy (early pattern LR, no razorbacks, whirlwinds, speeder etc).

You woudl have the option of having Jetbikes (themodels anyway) as they were still around pre-heresy i think. What would a SM look like mounted on an eldar jetbike?

**Rymafyr**

Praxiss wrote:I would probably go with SM models but use the chaos codex. As it is pre-heresy you won't really be able to use any Marks, 'Blitz, Noise weapons or Defilers.

but the other weapons options seem pre-heresy (early pattern LR, no razorbacks, whirlwinds, speeder etc).

You woudl have the option of having Jetbikes (themodels anyway) as they were still around pre-heresy i think. What would a SM look like mounted on an eldar jetbike?

I think you'd be better off modding existing SM bikes into Jetbikes.

**whalemusic360**

Yeah, getting a bunch of sammys would be a bit expensive. I saw a Defiler (I think on BoLS) that was done up pre heresy as a big walking gun platform I thought was cool. Had marines riding on it and stuff. Really wanna try that our as well.

This one
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/02/40k-hobby-death-guard-defiler.html

**Vindicator#9**

Yeah Soladrin i did mean during the heresy. Sorry bout that that was just a little confusing not explaining that. You are right though he wanted pre heresy so C: SM is the way to go but you could use C:CSM with no sonic weaponry. SW codex is also a good idea to use with all the assaulty goodness as long as you keep the wolves out of course.

**whalemusic360**

Im going, I think, with a "during heresy" approach, where they will still look SM but have CSM stuffs. Maybe I'll even do a P&M blog

**whalemusic360**

Im going, I think, with a "during heresy" approach, where they will still look SM but have CSM stuffs. Maybe I'll even do a P&M blog

**Exarch_Nektel**

I would go with a SM army, but stay shy of razorbacks and ironclad dreadnaughts, because neither of those were around preheresy. also, as a modelling point, use older mark helmets.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
well gak. what happened?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
?

**Exarch_Nektel**

I would go with a SM army, but stay shy of razorbacks and ironclad dreadnaughts, because neither of those were around preheresy. also, as a modelling point, use older mark helmets.

**Halsfield**

I think you could use older bitz/csm bits for the older weaponry and get a pre-heresy feel, but use the loyalist codex (ie blood angels which allows you so many different types of armies). CSM just use too many odd unit types that you are going to have a hard time working into a pre-heresy army. Loyalist lists also allow you to take non-silly dreads and get furioso/librarian/venerable/rifleman/etc dreads and have lots of them.

**terribletrygon**

I would actually stick with Codex Space Marines. Chaos Space Marines have become too different from their past make-up to be used for any kind of Loyalist marine army. With Codex Space Marines you'd be able to field more units that were Pre-Heresy then in the Chaos Space Marine army list. Land Speeders, Whirlwinds, Chaplains, non-crazy Dreadnoughts, and such.

**whalemusic360**

Maybe I'll do both. Obviously not played at once, but then I could do some metagame douchebaggery.
"Whatcha playing today?"
"Wouldn't you like to know. Mwuhahahahahaha"

or something like that.......