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I currently play DA, but since I've grown bored of them, I'm thinking of picking up a CD army to replace as my default army. Recently I played a game (complete with 1500 points of DA proxied as Nurgle daemons) and enjoyed the hell out of it. I'm wondering if CD is competitive and, if so, what kind of lists are the most competitive?

The units in the Demon codex are undercosted for what their stats. So I guess it can be competitive. The best one is probably a horde of blood crushers using plaguebearers as troops.

It will always be an uphill battle as their anti-vehicular options are not ideal.
They can take out armor, but are not reliable.

They are undercosted due to several things:
-They are 'fragile', they generally always get their saves, but the overall save is pretty low across the board.
-They are niche units, not very flexible.
-Their deployment is random the whole way through can can serve to... lose you the game before you even get past the first turn...

If you get past those issues, they are a pretty mean hammer list.

It's a win big/lose big army...and IMO, is not crazily supported by GW. What kills daemons for me is this:
-Discontinued production of mounted daemonettes.
-Splitting from CSM.
-Meh background to support things.

An army with 24 bloodcrushers in it is very nasty. Fatecrusher (Fateweaver + Bloodcrushers) is particularly nasty, and there are plenty of other daemon combinations out there; but they *are* a win big or go home army...

A couple of rolls will decide your games, starting with your preferred half. You get half your army on turn1; the preferred half on a 3+. If you stack your army to get the strong part and don't get it, you'll be hurting from the get-go. Some people build identical halves, so that whichever half they get, they have the same tools to work with. Next, your deep-striking rolls. You can't assault on the turn you deep strike, so you're going to come on the board shooting or running and nothing else. With this being a mechanized world, daemons have limited anti-tank (as pointed out above) - you can stack up on Tzeentch and get bolts of Tzeentch and a couple soul grinders....some flamers of Tzeentch that auto-glance on a 4+ or whatever....

But no matter what you do, you're still weak against vehicles, which I think is why folks have stopped playing them except for a hardcore few.

Yea, you are reduced to some not so great AT options.

Monstrous Creatues: need to get into CC and will hit less than usual, 4+ or even 6+ to hit. 2D6 at back armor is nice though.

Screamers: not durable, can't assault when DSing and need to be within 18" of the DS behind LoS blocking terrain to be of any use, and again, need to get into combat.

Wind: not a great option, but can shut up tank guns.

Bolt...not great either, a wanna-be Multi-Melta that's double or triple the price but without the melta rule.

SoulGrinds: poor hitters, large deepstrike unit, and the only tank, meaning no Armor Saturation...you can't even bait hvy weapons with tougher MCs as they are all ID proof.

Random Rending: still not ideal.

The problem most people have with starting daemons is the physical cost. Daemons are pretty much the most expensive army to play competitively. Nearly all of the models needed to compete are metal and cost 15-20$ each. You often need 10-20 of these models. (Fiends looking at you)

For example I have priced some 1500 pt lists on Maelstrom and Wayland
SM (razorback spam SW)450$
Dark Eldar (8 Raider 3 Ravanger) 500$
Eldar (Full saim han host) 600$
Daemons 800$

In addition there is very little secondary market for these guys, so no great deals on ebay.

That said there are many possibilities for scratch builders and many people have used plastic models from the Fantasy chaos range to substitute for the metal ones.

I guess all I have left to say is that daemons is a completely different style than most people are used to. Take some time to proxy before you buy and good luck

I second the ridiculous cost of a daemon army. Get ready to pay through the nose for generally so-so models or do A LOT of modeling. I like modeling, and was willing to pay a premium for the OOP slaanesh models (some of the best GW ever made IMO).

Second the limited anti tank. Although it’s not hopeless.

Second things are under pointed compared to other armies because of the randomness.

Second they aren’t supported well. They have a terrible 5th ed FAQ which they just got last month. And they don’t make a fair amount of the models you want to use (another reason you need to be into modeling).

Don’t necessarily agree it’s a go big or go home army. You can do a lot to hedge against the randomness which evens things out quite a bit.

Generally I’m happy I did a daemon army. But I like modeling, I like unit specialization, I was looking for something different, and I didn’t mind a higher than normal price tag. If that sounds like you then I say go for it. Otherwise probably better to move on.

Playing a full khorne army looks fun. If you can get into combat all those power weapons will be deadly. They are a big risk big reward army, but this can make very interesting games.

Thanks for all the replies, gives me a lot to think about before starting a whole new army.

My group of friends who I tend to play with nearly all field MEQ's, (with one eldar player and one nids player). Are CD decent against MEQs?

They can be cheap if you are planning on using them in fantasy too? What about those LOTR movement trays, are they suitable? It's a cheap army if you manage to combine them to work in both Fantasy and 40k.

I've been getting a bunch of magnets and attaching most of them to 40k bases and also using WHFB movement trays with sheet metal in them to stick too. So there is a dual purpose. I have 1k points so far, in small 40k games. It has been loads of fun to play with. However the most of the range is metal, making me work on them very slowly. I plan on adding another box of Daemonettes next.

Solstyce wrote:Thanks for all the replies, gives me a lot to think about before starting a whole new army.

My group of friends who I tend to play with nearly all field MEQ's, (with one eldar player and one nids player). Are CD decent against MEQs?

Most daemon units are anti-MEQ specialists, but only for foot MEQs. As others have mentioned, their anti-tank capabilities are strained. A land raider may as well be a monolith in terms of indestructability to daemons (at least while it's moving). Rhinos aren't too much of a problem if you've designed your army right, but even so they're probably still more irritating to daemons than to most other armies.
They do well against footdar too. Depending on the 'nid list, I could see them doing well there too... a 'nid MC list would probably cry at a standard daemon list, but keep in mind that power weapons and rending (Khorne and Slaanesh standards) are next to pointless against horde armies.

Keep in mind as well that daemons aren't quite as tough as you might think because invulnerable saves compete with cover saves. MEQs get in cover and get a 3+ armor save, and then when they get hit by something AP3 or better they get a 4+ cover save. Daemons don't get the same benefit, and the difference between a save of 3+ and a save of 4+ is larger than you might think. With only four exceptions (Fateweaver, Lord of Change, Masque, Daemon Prince with Hide) they don't get better than a 4+ save against anything, but you're still paying MEQ prices for them. Given how easy it is to get cover saves in 5th ed., my pink horrors are only slightly more survivable than an intelligently played IG squad, but much more expensive.

I love my daemons, but there are difficulties with the army.

Yesterday I played a game against a SW player, and he had an insane amount of trouble killing Ku'Gath. I soaked 2 LRCs, 2 Long Fang Packs (with ML), and two JotWW (two turns of his shooting), and took a total of one wound. Then I got charged by Logan Grimnar, a squad of Wolf Guard terminators, and two packs of Blood Claws. It took me three turns to wipe them out, and I took a total of two wounds from the close combat.

Is Ku'Gath normally this resilient, or was this an aberration?

Solstyce wrote:Yesterday I played a game against a SW player, and he had an insane amount of trouble killing Ku'Gath. I soaked 2 LRCs, 2 Long Fang Packs (with ML), and two JotWW (two turns of his shooting), and took a total of one wound. Then I got charged by Logan Grimnar, a squad of Wolf Guard terminators, and two packs of Blood Claws. It took me three turns to wipe them out, and I took a total of two wounds from the close combat.

Is Ku'Gath normally this resilient, or was this an aberration?

I've never played Ku'Gath. However, one of my standard HQs, a Lord of Change, is pretty tough (T6 and a 3+ inv). He tends to last a long time, but what you've described sounds like you got quite lucky from both a dice-rolling perspective and a what-your-opponent-took perspective. MLs are a terrible choice against Ku'Gath.

Two JotWW alone should've been enough to take Ku'Gath out.

Just to make sure... when your opponent hit you with something AP2 or AP1, or a power weapon or power fist or a successful rend, you didn't take the FNP roll, right?

Charging you with blood claws was a poor choice on your opponent's part. In fact, the default approach of Space Wolves is exactly what you want as a Nurgle player, because you have little in the way of ranged weapons and often can't get into charge range... the wolves charged you, and made your life easier.

Edit: That said, with 6 wounds at T6, a 4+ invulnerable, and FNP, you should generally assume that Ku'Gath is going to last through any battle where the opponent doesn't concentrate some pretty nasty stuff on him for several turns.

Ku'gath is a beast. I've had him take out 2 Hive tyrants and 2 kitted out fexes (back with the old nid dex when fexes were good) in a single game. Normally, it takes a lot, and i mean a lot to take him down.

Of course, I have also had him go down turn 2 from 5 seeker missiles and 1 vespid stingwing. I have never seen so many 1's on the table, nor a happier tau player.