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Hi, After surveying small games, I've realised the SM commander -- or any other kind of HQ isn't suited to games smaller then 500 points.

well, I suggest this:

A slightly stronger tactical sergeant, he's basically a force commander (like in DoW)

So, here it is:

WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 Ld10 Sv 3+

ATSKNF
Combat tactics


Playtesting:
1 250 point game, 2 500 poit games, all simple and effective. allowed for some powerful troops.

my thinking is that.

50 points, maybe 75.

Whats the consensus.
wargear:
Power armour
Bolt pistol
Frag and krak grenade
Boltgun

May exchange bolter/bolt-pistol for:
- chainsword - free
- Combiweap - 10 pts
- storm bolter - 10 pts
- plaspistol - 15 pts
- PW - 15 pts
- PF - 25 pts
as in the normal 'dex.

as for being a special marine, he can also take these equipments:
Art. armou - 15 pts
Hellfire rounds - 10 pts
Jump pack - 25 pts
Bike - 35 pts

thoughts?

It would be nice, but it's a very... I don't know. 4th ed. non-hero hammer-ish vibe to it.

As the fluff presents itself, a Tactical Squad Sergeant would sort of fit the position you are suggesting at times...

I think the closest thing compare this too would be the Wolf Guard Leader of the Space Wolves...
or the old Lieutenant of the 3.5 CSM codex.

No.

It goes:
Captain/Commander

and then

Chapter Master.

And you don't need special characters for games under 500 points. Who the heck tries to play games of under 500 points? That's like a squad and a half, fully kitted out, depending on the army.

It's a sarge with 2 wounds. . .

Kanluwen wrote:Who the heck tries to play games of under 500 points?

Isn't that what the kill team rules are for in the new battle missions book? I've never read it myself but from what I've heard they are very small games of about that cost. If so they already have rules for it so I don't think this new HQ is effective anywhere.

I'd assume so, Dorian. But if I remember right, those same Battle Missions also put limitations on forces you can take at low points levels.

Completly unecessary. He's about 4 time the cost of a Tac Marine, and yet he has +1W and +1A. Any S8+ weapon will still just vapourise him in an instant, due to the lack of an invun save.

Marines already have enough HQ options
Master
Captain
Libby
Chappylain
Master of the Forge
9 Special Characters

If you're going to make rules for characters, at least make them for armies that actually need some characters.

Valk

For 100 points, The Space Marine Captain really is all that bad. I don't see the point in making some sort of "Uber" Vet sergeant @ the cost of 75 points, or even 50.

...in 500 point games you aren't supposed to have HQ choices...

WHAT?! FOC is always 1hq 2 troops. where the hell did you get that gray? o.o'

Captain Solon wrote:WHAT?! FOC is always 1hq 2 troops. where the hell did you get that gray? o.o'

Either he's talking about battle missions, or saying that it is "unadvisable" to take anything noteworthy for an HQ at 500.

My point Solon? Take any of the cheap special characters, or a generic captain. (Also, keep the point costs for upgrades the same as the codex, and don't post them online.)

Captain Solon wrote:WHAT?! FOC is always 1hq 2 troops. where the hell did you get that gray? o.o'

The standard 40K rules are designed for games around the 1500 to 2000 point mark. When you go smaller, certain imbalances occur because some options become exponentially harder to defeat unless the opponent's list is tailored specifically for them.

As a result, the '40K in 40 Minutes' rules from a while back introduced rules for 400-ish point games, with certain restrictions on armies chosen for these sized games. From memory, players were not allowed to take anything with a 2+ save, or vehicles with Armour 14 or a total armour (adding up all the faces) exceeding a certain value. In exchange, armies were exempt from the usual FOC requirements. Again just from memory, you were only required to take a single Troops choice.


I believe a similar scenario has been included in the Battles book, but haven't seen it to confirm if it's the same or not.

che the idea I was going for was cheaper then a SM captain. thats the idea.

What you need is a Veteran Sergeant, like a marine from the First Company taking command of a small force of Space Marines for an operation. He wouldn't have access to all the weapons of the Captain (no relic blades or Terminator Armour, even though he's a Veteran, or digital lasers)

Possible outfitting:

Veteran Sergeant Commander 60
Combi-Weapon 10
Power Sword 15
Artificer Armour 15

Total: 100

A fully kitted out Commander would cost the same as a normal (no upgrades) Captain.

insaniak wrote:

Captain Solon wrote:WHAT?! FOC is always 1hq 2 troops. where the hell did you get that gray? o.o'

The standard 40K rules are designed for games around the 1500 to 2000 point mark. When you go smaller, certain imbalances occur because some options become exponentially harder to defeat unless the opponent's list is tailored specifically for them.

As a result, the '40K in 40 Minutes' rules from a while back introduced rules for 400-ish point games, with certain restrictions on armies chosen for these sized games. From memory, players were not allowed to take anything with a 2+ save, or vehicles with Armour 14 or a total armour (adding up all the faces) exceeding a certain value. In exchange, armies were exempt from the usual FOC requirements. Again just from memory, you were only required to take a single Troops choice.


I believe a similar scenario has been included in the Battles book, but haven't seen it to confirm if it's the same or not.

Yep, 40k in 40 min, or Comabt Patrol.
400 points
1+ Troops
0-2 HQ
0-3 FA, Elite, HS
No W3 models
No 2+ save of any type
No vehcile with a combined AV of 33 or above
4'x4' table

Its a really good system for quick games.

500p with 2 troops also works

Corennus wrote:What you need is a Veteran Sergeant, like a marine from the First Company taking command of a small force of Space Marines for an operation. He wouldn't have access to all the weapons of the Captain (no relic blades or Terminator Armour, even though he's a Veteran, or digital lasers)

Possible outfitting:

Veteran Sergeant Commander 60
Combi-Weapon 10
Power Sword 15
Artificer Armour 15

Total: 100

A fully kitted out Commander would cost the same as a normal (no upgrades) Captain.

Leaving you with very little reason to take the Captain. Still not a fan Solon, an okay idea...but keep it simpler by just allowing a 1W upgrade to Sergeants, making them count as a required HQ, but not take up an HQ slot.

^^^Cost the idea at...say...20 points. Yes, you then have a 36 point model that can't take a lot of upgrades, but it saves you the points of having to be a legitimate HQ.

Simple, and I like it.

That works.

So you'd have two tactical squads, but with one costing a minimum of :

Space marines are 16 points per model: 64 points

Sergeant: Normal Space Marine Cost: 16
Sergeant Upgrade: 10
Commander Upgrade : 10

100 points

Sergeant has access to:
Special Ammunition (Hellfire rounds)
May exhange bolter and/or bolt pistol for:
Any normal sergeant upgrade

Artificer Armour.

Corennus wrote:That works.

So you'd have two tactical squads, but with one costing a minimum of :

Space marines are 16 points per model: 64 points

Sergeant: Normal Space Marine Cost: 16
Sergeant Upgrade: 10
Commander Upgrade : 10

100 points

Sergeant has access to:
Special Ammunition (Hellfire rounds)
May exhange bolter and/or bolt pistol for:
Any normal sergeant upgrade

Artificer Armour.

i love it

Totally do-able too. As long as your opponent agrees.

But the commander's stat line would be less than a captain's

Say something like this:

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv

5 4 4 4 2 5 3 9 2+

so yes he has basically the same stats as an honour guard, but without the ability to take the wargear the honour guard or command squad can.

Kanluwen wrote:No.

It goes:
Captain/Commander

and then

Chapter Master.

And you don't need special characters for games under 500 points. Who the heck tries to play games of under 500 points? That's like a squad and a half, fully kitted out, depending on the army.

Actually, the 3rd ed SM codex had rules for a super low tier of Space Marine Hero, I forget what it was called, but it was somewhere from 30 to 60 points and had stats almost the same as a sergeant.

Corennus wrote:Totally do-able too. As long as your opponent agrees.

But the commander's stat line would be less than a captain's

Say something like this:

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv

5 4 4 4 2 5 3 9 2+

so yes he has basically the same stats as an honour guard, but without the ability to take the wargear the honour guard or command squad can.

Good idea for stats

I suppose if you want to play a ridiculously small game then this character is fine but who other than a brand new player ever wants to play less than 1000 points?

someone who hasn't got time for a longer game

500 points isn't really 40K though as if you are SM that is two tac squads + something cheap.

Obviously it is someone who hasn't got time for a longer game but personally at the two clubs I play at no one would want to waste an hour playing 500 points a side

ph34r wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:No.

It goes:
Captain/Commander

and then

Chapter Master.

And you don't need special characters for games under 500 points. Who the heck tries to play games of under 500 points? That's like a squad and a half, fully kitted out, depending on the army.

Actually, the 3rd ed SM codex had rules for a super low tier of Space Marine Hero, I forget what it was called, but it was somewhere from 30 to 60 points and had stats almost the same as a sergeant.

The 3rd ed. SM codex's HQ choices under "Space Marine Heroes":
Leader (30pts--basic SM statline)
Commander (45 pts---basic SM statline with +1 to most stats)
Force Commander (60 pts--basic SM statline with +1 to most stats, and +2 W).

The difference was that SM Heroes of that time came with just Power Armour as standard, no weapons no grenades no Iron Haloes, etc.

Everything else had to be armory purchased.

I'd be happier if I could just nominate one tactical squad to be my HQ squad, and have the sergeant as my armies leader. Maybe give the squad the option of a company banner, so I can re-roll morale checks with it.

Ed_Bodger wrote: I suppose if you want to play a ridiculously small game then this character is fine but who other than a brand new player ever wants to play less than 1000 points?

You might be surprised.

The 40K in 40 minutes rules were initially the result of a couple of the GW studio guys playing small games in their lunch break. A lot of players picked them up for the same reason.

We played quite a bit of it around here as it let us get in a stack of fast, brutal games in a short amount of time

I have a good list for 500 points, you just need to use cheap units for troops.
Mind you, Necrons can't really have much, but Spehss Mehreenz can have 3 troop choices and 200 points left!

JSK-Fox wrote:I have a good list for 500 points, you just need to use cheap units for troops.
Mind you, Necrons can't really have much, but Spehss Mehreenz can have 3 troop choices and 200 points left!

2 full Tac Squads, and a Captain...

I think he's made a scout heavy build or something.

Although tbh, if you're going any less than 600pts you're either doing combat patrol, AoBR or that new 200pt each model's a unit game.

Most of my games are either combat patrol, 1000pt, 1750pt, 2000pt, 2500pt or apocalypse 3000+

Sometimes do 1500, but it escalates the game a bit more that you need more stuff than you can get in most of the time, and 1750 just gives you enough pts for that.

I think maybe a 'junior commander' or something, representing a new captain who isn't super uber yet. Basically chaplain statline without the chaplain special rules, and vanguard veteran options.