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does he get an extra attack for having two CC weapons? Im being told no because of his LC, but if that is the case then he would be denied the bonus from the Daemon Weapon which is suppose to be two handed anyway. Either way i dont mind. The last thing Abaddon needs is another friggin attack. Its more a point of curiosity than anything else. His CC weps get a Bullet each in the troop choice section and like i said, Id like to know what makes this work since there are factors for and against him getting the bonus attack. ready, set, educate.

Abaddon has a Daemon Weapon ONLY, and Daemon Weapons are 2 handed.

so the talon of horus Lightning claw is just there for show and the listing of it separately from drach'nyen the daemon weapon is just for show? id like an explanation nosferatu, not just a ruling.



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So I can better grasp the game mechanics when similar questions arise.

2nd edit was to fix caps lock

iirc it uses a combined weapon profile now, so he gets the benefit from both (combi bolter + reroll to wound + D6 attacks + other fancy gubbins)

excellent. How do i tell when other chars have a combined weapon profile and not two separate weapons?

When it explicitly states it in the unit's profile, like it does for Abaddon.

i thought troop choice trumped profile due to the fluff text. so the & in profile combines them is what youre saying if I understand you correctly.

an ampersand in one of two listings is not all that explicit of a statement when theyer listed separately in the second. but profile it is. thanks to all of you for tonights lesson.

I'm refering to the rules for the weapons, which say "The effect of these two powerful artifacts means that Abaddon counts as equipped with [...]"

yes, the part that is named the "daemon sword drachneyn & the talon of horus". I dont doubt that they work the way you all say. I end up on both sides of abaddon in games so i was looking for something a little more definitive and less open to interpretation.

bulleted separately in troop choices is misleading at best and profiles are notorious for mixing fluff and rules and causing really stupid arguments like "since abaddon has all four marks doesnt he get all four daemon sword powers" and other wondrous arguments involving everything from hellstrike missiles straight down to the waaaaaghhh!!! I was looking for something a little more RAW. like an ironclad anvil of truth. If they are not combined then it opens the argument that he does not wound on a 2+ because he cant use the sword with the talon... yadda yadda. Looking at the responses im guessing that the profile ampersand is as close to a RAW ruling as im going to get. I need something I can use in an argument with those less reasonable.

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haha YAY 50TH POST

I don't see how anyone could think they're separate in game terms. Their rules are completely interwoven. What would be the rules for just his Daemonsword? Just his Talons?

You understand it so well and yet you are incapable of explaining in a way that i can use when i am on the other side of Abaddon. Im not trying to argue what it can do with you but all your exclamations of how it works are useless to me unless you can give me something less open to interpretation. I dont like playing him 4+d6 attacks when i am using him and 5+d6 attacks when im playing against him because i dont have a solid argument.

So hows about you give me something i can reference that can distinguish between a profile listing and two separate bullets in the troop choice so im not at a disadvantage at least 50% of the time.

Edit

SOMEBODY GET GWAR!
He knows how to provide useable arguements.

Well... look at it this way.

Lighting claws only get +1 Attack if it has a like pair. The Sword is not a like pair to the lightning claw.

So there is no +1Attack ever for 2 close combat weapons as they are both unique (or more to the point they are just 2 weapons fluff-wise that just counts as a single weapon rules-wise).

If you need a reference is Codex:CSM, p46, Demon Sword Drach'nyen and Talon of Horus.

Note that the talon of horus is never actually defined as a lightning claw anywhere, nor is it a separate weapon to Drach'nyen, incase anyone tries to tell you that you cant use both because theya re two separate special weapons. They're not. They function as one.

Are you looking at the 3rd ed dex? Cause that could be a problem. Just have to ask, since you tried to assert that the two items were weapons.

In the 4th ed CSM dex, the Talon of Horus is NOT NOT NOT a lightning claw. In fact, it isn't anything. The sword Drach'nyen is NOT NOT NOT a daemon weapon. It isn't anything either.

However, being equipped with both items triggers the paragraph listed on p46, "Daemon Sword Drach'nyen and Talon of Horus." This states that Abbadon counts as equipped with the following:

Daemon Weapon

And the following exceptions apply:

He has double strength instead of +1, and he may reroll to wound in close combat.

So... Does he get a bonus for two close combat weapons? Let's see. Is the Talon of Horus a CCW? No. Is Drach'nyen a close combat weapon? No. Is a Daemon Weapon a close combat weapon? Yes. He counts as being equipped with one. Is a DW two handed? Yes. Does he get a bonus for two single handed CCWs? No.

To the OP - stay calm.

To all others - bravo for staying calm.

Alpharius wrote:To the OP - stay calm.

To all others - bravo for staying calm.

everything all of you have said is getting countered with "theyer listed separately on page 90 under Abaddons wargear" This is what i need to debunk.

What you all have given me makes sense and seems like the truth. However it also seems to have me in a "nuh uh profile" "nuh uh pg 90" argument. Maybe i should just give up playing him. But if i didnt get into rule debates there I dont think Id ever need to post here.


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HAHA never mind. hes so pissed off now that he said hes never going to play me again. soooo guess that is that.

They may be listed separately, the but the entry on page 46 specifically says what effects they have:

"The effect of these two powerful artefacts means that Abaddon counts as equipped with a Daemon Weapon that doubles his strength (to Strength 8, as shown in his profile) instead of the normal +1, and he may re-roll any failed roll to wound in close combat."

So, regardless of how many times it's listed under his entry on page 90, the effect of the two together is that Abaddon counts as being armed with a daemon weapon, so no +1 attack for him being armed with two weapons.

fluff /=/ rules

It's a daemon weapon, just with special, extra goodies slapped in to make him worth that truckload you are spending to field him. Now where you got the idea he has lightning claws is beyond me aside the little scribblings in his story box. Look to his equipment chart to see what he has and go from there. Any further arguing or trying to reason with no plausible evidence written in his rules is just a waste of time and people's patience.

It could be worse, it could be like this one guy claiming Abaddon could use any of the daemon weapons because he thought he had all the god marks. Thank god Sam Adams was there to help that afterwords.

firstly, you can NEVER get the 2CCW bonus, as both "weapons" are special - meaning the rules on page 42(i think...) are triggered. You must choose which one to use and therefore you NEVER get the +1A bonus.

Secondly - neither weapon *by itself* actually does ANYTHING.

Nothing at all.

ONLY when the two are combined do you get anything at all.

nosferatu1001 wrote:firstly, you can NEVER get the 2CCW bonus, as both "weapons" are special - meaning the rules on page 42(i think...) are triggered. You must choose which one to use and therefore you NEVER get the +1A bonus.

Secondly - neither weapon *by itself* actually does ANYTHING.

Nothing at all.

ONLY when the two are combined do you get anything at all.

This. Quientin, you seem to be saying that they are two weapons as they are listed separately. What, then, do each of those weapons actually do? There is no entry for "Talon of Horus" or "Daemon Sword Drach'nyen", only a single entry for "Daemon Sword Drach'nyen and Talon of Horus" which has a single effect.

Ok, so you could argue that he has two weapons. That doesn't matter, they're both two-handed weapons anyway, so it wouldn't matter if your argument was right or wrong.

In previous editions (both 3rd ed codices, at least), he had a single Lightning Claw and could make an extra attack with Drach'nyen (which was nasty - if it hit, it automatically caused a wound/penetrating hit with no saves and caused Instant Death, IIRC), but that concept was simplified for this edition.

sooooo the way to beat him is to say "ok if theyer two separate weapons then you can only use one at a time because of what they are!"

works for me. Has a backing in RAW. and for the final time: I AM NOT TRYING TO ARGUE ABADDON GETS 2CCWS, IM TRYING TO ARGUE WHAT EVERY ONE OF YOU IS SAYING.... WITH BACKUP AND AUTHORITY. which was missing until a recently.

EDIT

and thanks for giving me a RAW based argument to debunk a difficult question

EDIT EDIT

i just beat him over the head with his own argument. double thanks to those of you who provided the "it still doesnt work that way even if you twist it to your whims" argument