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I played the tournament ive been much talking about the last while over the weekend, it was a 3 game best points win. the points was 2200, and i brought my daemons of tzeentch to the game. now, there was a comp system in place for general points, and i was not aware of the scoring criteria untill a day before the tourney, so it was a little late to change the list i used since it would have required purchasing building and painting a bunch of diffrent models. in any case, the 1st army i fought was an undead list, wich used tons of skelatons, a few vamps some knights (the not scary ones) and alot of zombie raising. the game resulted in a solid victory for me. the 2nd game was vrs a dark elves army featuring malekith a pair of bolt throwers and lots of dark riders. he conceded on turn 3, once kairos got behind his lines. the final game was against a mono khorne daemons army, (who had also won his other 2 games). it went to turn 6, but in the end he had a single flesh hound left with a single wound on it. in any case, ill post the list i used below, but ive had people tell me after the game that the list is too scary to face in a friendly game, and if it had not been a tournament they would not have played against it... so my question is this: is the list that scary? what list would beat it? personally i dont think its THAT bad.... i did get extremly lucky in my dice, only miscasting once, wich kairos avoided with his reroll. i was also getting nice high rolls on flicker fire and any other random damage spell usually getting a 4-6 (wich often resulted in 5-7 str 5-8 hits...etc). anyway, without furthar ramble on my end:

L: Kairos fateweaver
H: Blue scribes
H: herald of tzeentch with flames of tzeentch and winged horror
H: herald of tzeentch with flames of tzeentch and winged horror

C: 17 pink horrors, with changling
C: 10 pink horrors
C: 10 pink horrors

S: 4 screamers
S: 4 screamers

R: 6 flamers
R: 6 flamers

So, is it over powered? that scary? anything that would have a shot at beating this? ( i did end up placing first overall , but did not win best painted or best sport)

For a tourny i say anything goes, which is why i just redid my DE list, especially since money is on the line.

However, if i saw that army hit the table in a friendly game, id tell you where to stick it. Decent rule of thumb is if it places really well in a tourny, it probably shouldnt be used in friendly games.

So, as your like the 5th person to say the same.... what makes this list so over the top? my intention on this was to simply do a tzeentch theme, IE: everything is tzeentch...and to get a good mix of everything possible. the reason for the characters is simply: kairos is much better then a standard lord of change, for comparable points, the scribes are a neat idea, and i like thier fluff, and changling is a nice counter to someone charging my horrors (wich i was sugegsted to fit him in, since hes good at discouraging charges) so the question i pose is this: if the list is "broken" or over powered, how would one keep the same feel and main strengths without getting over powered?

i will mention that the list sort of evolved to this state, and was not intended as a crazy uber list. i would love to field it in friendly games, since its my best painting/conversion work ive done in a while, and i just love the idea behind it. however the last thing i want is people getting pissed at me for fielding it (friendly or tourney). so suggestions on how to tone it down a tad while still using the avalable models would be apreciated. or at least what makes it so crazy?

Its kinda hard to say without seeing the opponenets army lists to gauge how cheesy your list was in that setting. Like looking at what you mentioned for the de list with him using malekith and it only being 2200pts, yeah, he was going to get stomped. Vampire list sounds like it was kinda weak as well since he was using mostly skeles and not crypt ghouls.

Probably because of Kairos.

He's in every single Tzeentch tourny build.

It's not broken per say, but the Tz kairos list is arguably the most powerful out there now (and in my opinion is the most powerful)
I didn't see you also asked why: you have a flying terror causing uber mage, with two flying support mages with screamer retinue... No army can really stand up to that, without counting extra magic from the core, high str flaming ranged shots, and all the other generic demon powers (ward itp fear). Basically if you put down XXXX points of any combination of tz demons it will take extreme effort to lose the game... those people arnt mad because you made a stupidly powerful tz list, they are mad because there is no way to make a weak list. Granted they are taking it out on you

A Kollosus and a Great Taurus and a high priest on a lammasu could take it with support from bull centaurs and golems with hobgoblin stikkas shooting them up and rabble providing road blocks.

It makes little difference since the list is so abusively powerful as it is, but IMO it could actually be better and stay mono-tizz. Giving the heralds the 'know all of 1 lore' gift instead of flames and putting them in flying chariots instead of just flying provides even more focused magic - need beast cowers? now you've got 3 of them - and also US5 rank breakers when you finally want to commit to combat.

The most disgusting part of the list? 3 special characters and 1000 power dice.
The more disgusting part? 12 flamers.
The merely disgusting part? Daemons and the attendant special rules.
The single refreshing part? 8 screamers!

I actually feel bad for tizz daemon players, because it's almost impossible to make a list that isn't totally imbalanced toward magic. I was working on a horror-based 2k list at some point - 2 chariot heralds, 1 BSB herald, 3 fat blocks (1 w/ changeling), 1 min block, 4 screamers, 5 flamers - but even that has 14 power dice

- Salvage

Honestly the list is beatable, but since it is daemons list, and a nearly min maxed one at that, your opponents can't bring anything resembling crap and expect to win.

For instance, the VC player probably brought a very average VC list. The DE player brough a VERY overpriced special character, insufficient bolt thowers (you take 3-4 or all hydras) and a bunch of easy to kill (esp against ranged attacks like tzentch gets) fast cavalry. Mono khorne while nasty isn't actually that good since it gives up shooting AND magic, and its units aren't even very fast.

So essentially your list is pretty good against what you faced, which is a bunch of paper rock scissors armies. If the VC player had brought a better list, he had the best chance of beating you (other than the fact that VC is slow and you brought many fliers)

All that being said, Daemons are the most powerful book in WHFB right now, and by a fair margin at that. They aren't unbeatable by any means, but with a good general behind them it takes a bit of luck and good list building to take them out.

Against a well built lizard army with all the DD they can bring combined with T4, throw away screens, and powerful magic and EotG activations, your list wouldn't fair quite as well I'm betting. (still a tough matchup) DE would pretty much always have issue with your list, unless they bring ring of hotek and some MR items. Any double a miscast? Your horrors aren't throwing that many dice, but your heralds and khairos are.

By putting 40 of those skeleton archers in one unit, you can guarantee 80 shots a turn from that unit, taking your efficiency of re-shots up by a HUGE amount. Although it has to be protected a little bit more fervently

I'll give this a go...

Khalida (has bound 5 venom staff that does 24 inch range, 2d6 st4 hits) and auto cast of Righteous smiting (cannot be dispelled)
Liche priest (Hierophant) Cloak of dunes, hieretic jar
Liche priest Dispel scroll, dispel scroll
Liche Priest, Dispel scroll, dispel scroll

10 skeleton archers (poison from Khalida)
10 skeleton archers (poison from Khalida)
10 skeleton archers (poison from Khalida)
10 skeleton archers (poison from Khalida)
10 skeleton archers (poison from Khalida)
10 skeleton archers (poison from Khalida)
10 skeleton archers (poison from Khalida)
10 skeleton archers (poison from Khalida)
10 skeleton archers (poison from Khalida)

Tomb scorpion
Tomb scorpion
Tomb scorpion
Tomb scorpion

No real focus to the army (except khalida)
Liche priest can keep flying out of trouble.
no unit will run
You have negligable combat so I'm happy with small units
90 poison shots in shooting phase.
likely another 20 in magic phase (10 guaranteed)
All can move and fire.

Decent magic output and defence, and once a few horrors are knocked off the enemy magic will drop off quickly.
Tomb scorps can either gang up on a flamer unit, or characters if they try and hide in inits, or spam the large horror unit and tie it up for the rest of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something buggy happened and a double post appeared, and when I deleted it both posts disappeared, so Ragnar4's post is in relation to this post.

Good idea on the 40 shots. Also it would be a bugger of a unit to kill off.

Also being skirmished and hiding in terrain won't help flamers. They still get hit on a 5.

If the bows have 24" or less range I'd prolly still take the tz list... I guess it would come down to how quickly you burned throughy the scrolls... Unless my mathhammer is wrong that list is putting out 16 ish wounds per turn at maximum output... IMO that's not enough, ESP with the mobility and saturation capacity of the flying tzers. but who knows about variables such as first turn, scribes, scrolls etc.

The bows have a 28" effective range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
130 shots per turn. =22 autowounds, along with another 11 wounds from 5's to hit and 4's to wound.

33 wounds against a 5+ ward becomes 22 total wounds. If the unit is targeted, it dissappears.

Ah, I didn't count on you having 130 shots, and i'm not really sure how they would all be able to fire... I guess you are assuming firing at a large target? But none of the other calculations indicate that, do TK have special rules about firing in ranks? Or is that 40 man unit just a line in the center? (maximizing it's targeting ability while decreasing the smaller flanking units'?) I guess I've never seen that TK list played, but I've witnessed many tz demon beatdowns... Y'all are probably right

no special rules other than "they always hit on 5+, no matter what"

They do have to be able to see the target though.

20 wide on a hill with a second rank is manageable. although 40 wide in the center of the table is probably the only way to go. Khalida gives them the second shot. for 130 guaranteed shots.

It would be a battle of attrition. Another thing to consider is that you can give them the banner of "I heal d6 wounds" to try to help stave off any battle damage they take. Probably won't go off very often, but this turns into a "I'm going to try to kill your wizards faster than you can kill my troops"

Also: I would seriously consider the staff of ravening at the cost of a Tomb Scorpion.

I've actually played a Khalida army against a slaneesh army, and had to win in combat (last edition) it was creepy when I turned him away.. boy those non khorne non chosen knights sucked last edition.

Well im glad to know i wasent being overpowered on purpose... guess picking the TZ theme was the start of the cheese ball... oh well. as for the other armys i faced, if i recall correctly the VC had: 2 vamps and a necro, 1 unit of blood knights? he said it was the "lesser" ones. he also had 3 blocks of skeles, adn raised alot of zombies. his key tatic was raising zombies then using the movment spell thing to push them into CC. unfortunitly i just kept dispelling his spell, only allowing his summons to go off, as it gave me some free dice to work with. the DE had malekith on dragon, a pair of bolt throwers, unit of cold one knights, 2 units of dark riders, some wyches, corsairs and a sorc. pretty much same deal...ignored malekith and kept him at bay with the flamers (he didnt move anywhere close to them, and in fact ran away from them when i advanced) otherwise i just kept dispelling his magic, and sent kairos over to hunt the throwers (the scribes casting comet of cassandora helped alot) the khorne demons had all heralds for his heros, all of which rode juggers. he had 3 blocks of blood letters, 2 units of hounds and 2 units of crushers. game pretty much went like the DE. with me shooting him up, then getting my heralds and kairos in behind him to blast him in the arse. this is also the only game in which the screamers actually did thier thing.. )the other games they either got zombie locked or stayed at the edge of the baord waiting for me to commit so they could charge...which i counterd by just staying put and out waiting him)

in either case, i was suggested by a friend that the key cheese here is 3 spec chars. , so would doing either the following make it less or more cheesy?
A: dropping the changling for more horrors, and dropping kairos for a basic lord of change with max gifts
B: trimming the screamers to 1 block of 4, and changing the horrors to bloodletters, then adding some hounds or crushers.
C: playing empire.

I would do option A... Having special characters will always invoke the wrath of some people... And realistically those 3 would probably never be on the same battlefield at the same time. Having a lot of core is a sure fire way to get brownie points from anyone

Or Dwarfs:

Thorek Iron Brow + Anvil
Thane BSB- Master rune valaya (+2 dispel attempts and RIP spells within 12 inches dispelled at start of magic phase)
Rune Priest Master rune spellbinding (+1 dispel attempts), spell breaker rune
Rune priest, x3 spellbreaker runes
10 crossbowmen
10 crossbowmen
10 crossbowmen
10 crossbowmen
Bolt thrower, engineer, rune seeking
Bolt thrower, engineer
Bolt thrower, engineer
Bolt thrower, engineer
Bolt thrower, engineer
Bolt thrower, engineer
Bolt thrower, engineer
Bolt thrower, engineer
Organ gun
Organ gun

So 8 dispel dice with +3 to dispel
Drop a max power rune wrath and ruin each turn on Fateweaver and the heralds- 2d6 st 4 hits each and can't fly next turn.
The flamers will be hard to deal with but wrath and ruin max power would probably be best way to take them out, first turn, or at least, severely weaken them.
Sit back near my table edge and blow them away from 30 inches.
Again, no focus for the enemy to go after.

Drop Kairos and at least one of the other two and that should help significantly and still leave you with a powerful army.

I think you built a great list, and if people don't like being challenged by it, then they are the ones with the problems. I like to play against over powered armies ((especially the ones found accidentally)) because it gives me challenge. You were playing at a tournament, not some game day with your buddies, at a tournament I expect that everyone brings their BEST. From what I've gathered your list is just better than everyone's and they are jealous. I used to get like that too at Tournaments i'd rip on the guy doing the best and try to find some excuse, i rolled poorly, or his army list isn't legit somehow, but i realized I just don't built good tournament lists, so of course i am gonna loose. Just keep on trucking with your list, make them beat you, don't let them bully you into watering down your list so they are happy.

hcordes wrote:I think you built a great list, and if people don't like being challenged by it, then they are the ones with the problems. I like to play against over powered armies ((especially the ones found accidentally)) because it gives me challenge. You were playing at a tournament, not some game day with your buddies, at a tournament I expect that everyone brings their BEST. From what I've gathered your list is just better than everyone's and they are jealous. I used to get like that too at Tournaments i'd rip on the guy doing the best and try to find some excuse, i rolled poorly, or his army list isn't legit somehow, but i realized I just don't built good tournament lists, so of course i am gonna loose. Just keep on trucking with your list, make them beat you, don't let them bully you into watering down your list so they are happy.

Except that its been stated in other posts that in tournies anything should go, and if people cry about your overpowered list tough. Its a tournament, money and prizes are on the line, and you come to win.

I stated if i saw that hit the table in a friendly game I wouldnt waste my time with it. Who wants to play a "for fun" game against a min maxed tournament level army? Personally I keep multiple army lists in my cast. 2-3 friendly lists and 2-3 more competitive ones.

Honestly if I ever heard someone complaining about someone else bringing a strong list to a tourny id be happy to call them an idiot. Why enter a tournament if you dont plan to win.... Part of planning to win is bringing a strong list.

@Shivan: Certainly, not all tournament organizers share your sentiment. There are many examples of comped tournaments where a list like this wouldn't get in, or would be dinged. However, I agree with you- if the list was legal for your tournament and meets all the guidlines (it was) then it shouldn't be frowned upon. Friendly games, there could be an issue there.

@ Gonads: Isn't that Dwarf list illegal? Thorek takes a Lord and Hero choice (because of his anvil) meaning you're one hero too many.

RZ

Red_Zeke wrote:@Shivan: Certainly, not all tournament organizers share your sentiment. There are many examples of comped tournaments where a list like this wouldn't get in, or would be dinged. However, I agree with you- if the list was legal for your tournament and meets all the guidlines (it was) then it shouldn't be frowned upon. Friendly games, there could be an issue there.

@ Gonads: Isn't that Dwarf list illegal? Thorek takes a Lord and Hero choice (because of his anvil) meaning you're one hero too many.

RZ

I should have put "within the rules of the tournie".

I have no issue with comped tournies, and actually think they arent a bad idea at all. Makes the game more balanced (funny, the people the playing the game balance it better then GW). Thats part of the reason why so many tournies i look at dont allow characters. Some characters are simply amazing, while others suck incredible monkey gak for their point cost. (looking at you Malekith, Morathi, Sahdowblade... pretty much every DE char lol) When you can build a better lord that does pretty much the same thing (or is better) for less points, there is a problem with your armies characters.

ShivanAngel wrote:

I stated if i saw that hit the table in a friendly game I wouldnt waste my time with it. Who wants to play a "for fun" game against a min maxed tournament level army? Personally I keep multiple army lists in my cast. 2-3 friendly lists and 2-3 more competitive ones.

Well this just BS, i would never refuse someone a game, and 9 out of 10 times the people make it clear or ask permission to use a competitive list, and even if they didn't, its not that big of a deal, you play for fun, and you learn as well, if someone wants to bring a super cheese army to the casual game day, fine, play him once and don't bother the rest of the day unless i feel like i can alter my list to compete. I would never refuse to play someone just because they have a competitive list. There is enough discrimination in the world in general, lets leave it outta war gaming.
Just like I wouldn't refuse to play someone who doesn't have a painted army. (and no... lets not start that topic up again)

the only time i refuse to play someone, is if they make it a habit of cheating, or are just a bad bad bad sportsman in winning or loosing.

I'll buck the trend by saying I'd love to play aginst a list like this either at a tournament or friendly play. Even if I do get thrashed it doesn't matter. At the end of the day it's just pieces of plastic being shuffled around a table. And, seeing that my empire guys wouldn't last long, there would be time to squeeze in a friendly game!

hcordes wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:

I stated if i saw that hit the table in a friendly game I wouldnt waste my time with it. Who wants to play a "for fun" game against a min maxed tournament level army? Personally I keep multiple army lists in my cast. 2-3 friendly lists and 2-3 more competitive ones.

Well this just BS, i would never refuse someone a game, and 9 out of 10 times the people make it clear or ask permission to use a competitive list, and even if they didn't, its not that big of a deal, you play for fun, and you learn as well, if someone wants to bring a super cheese army to the casual game day, fine, play him once and don't bother the rest of the day unless i feel like i can alter my list to compete. I would never refuse to play someone just because they have a competitive list. There is enough discrimination in the world in general, lets leave it outta war gaming.
Just like I wouldn't refuse to play someone who doesn't have a painted army. (and no... lets not start that topic up again)

the only time i refuse to play someone, is if they make it a habit of cheating, or are just a bad bad bad sportsman in winning or loosing.

We each have our own opinions on it.

I honestly see bringing a super list to a for fun gameday as somewhat unsportsmanlike . If im playing for fun or amusement im normally not going to be in super competitive mode. Massacring your opponent is normally only fun for one of the two parties. Where a minor victory is generally fun for both. (unless your the player who needs to win so bad you bring a powerlist to a for fun gameday).

Im not saying i dont like a challange, but if im just there to mess around and have a few fun battles, i will steer clear of powerlists like these.

in my experience the dice hate me weather its a friendly game or a competitive one, and your list doesn't really matter I snatch defeat from the jaws of victory pretty much every time.
Or maybe I just don't have standards when it comes to playing a GAME.

hcordes wrote:in my experience the dice hate me weather its a friendly game or a competitive one, and your list doesn't really matter I snatch defeat from the jaws of victory pretty much every time.
Or maybe I just don't have standards when it comes to playing a GAME.

Ok when i hear the word game i think of something done for enjoyment.

I personally dont like bringing a non competitive list to have fun with one a gameday, only to see someone put a tournament level army on the table just to wipe the floor with people. Thats not enjoyable for me, therefor i avoid it.

I carry multiple lists, if i have the models with me and feel like playing his powerlists with one of mine more power to him. Part of the appeal of a gameday for me is the ability to bring lists made just for fluff/fun and at least do ok with them.

If i dont feel like spending my time playing a game i wouldnt enjoy who are you to judge?

i have to agree ... even though i ended up as a power list, the orginal intent was for a themed army that worked well together. ive played against people in fun games that brought power lists to wholley masacare me, and its no fun. i try to avoid doing that myself if possible. for tournaments... i try to have fun as well, since i enjoy the game more then the tourney aspect. that said, now that i realised how powerful this list is... i might think twice on taking it as is to the next tourney. (since im fairly certian i got low scores in comp and sportsman, just because of the cheesy list). otherwise, for a friendly game i think this one is going to stay on the shelf untill i can develop a less min/maxed version of it. to quote the old saying

" with great power gaming, comes great responsiblity for your own lonliness"

DarthSpader wrote:

" with great power gaming, comes great responsiblity for your own lonliness"

So all your 'friends' are going to disown you for using a list they didn't like?, jesus christ pass me the tissues...

btw this isn't a personal attack.