Belgium Lower Houses Approves Ban on Full Face Veils

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**WarOne**

Huh...catch me if this has already been placed out there the last few days...

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/04/29/belgiums-lower-house-votes-to-ban-burqa/

Lawmakers in Belgium on Thursday approved a ban on the wearing of burqas and other Islamic garb that covers a woman's face but the bill must still be approved by the upper house of parliament before it becomes law.

If the Senate approves it, Belgium would become the first country in Europe to ban the burqa.

The vote in the Chamber of Deputies was 136 in favor, none opposed and two abstentions, according to Dominiq van Dendossche, a press officer for the Belgian parliament.

Senate passage seems likely since the Chamber of Deputies approved it.

Human rights group Amnesty International immediately condemned the vote.

Members of parliament have said they're motivated both by security and morality in pushing for the ban.

What catches my eye is the fact the House voted with almost no opposition. You would think that someone or a coalition of people would be against banning the full face veil.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/30/AR2010043002131.html

BELGIUM'S PARLIAMENT is so polarized along linguistic lines that it has been unable to agree on a government for much of the past three years. At the moment it is ruled by a caretaker coalition. But the deputies managed to achieve near-unanimity this week on one pressing issue: discriminating against Muslims. A law passed by the lower house would ban the wearing of full Islamic face veils in any public place -- and exacerbate what is becoming an ugly European trend.

Like many of its neighbors, Belgium has a significant minority Muslim population -- about 3 percent of a population of 10 million. Like those neighbors, it has done a poor job of integrating Muslim immigrants, and many cluster in ghettos that can be breeding grounds for extremism. This is a serious and complex problem. But too often the response of governments has been bigotry directed at immigrants or Muslims as a whole -- which serves only to further alienate even non-devout members of the community.

Belgium's burqa ban is a good example. The law prohibits any full facial covering, with a punishment for violators of a week in jail or a fine of up to $34. Some supporters claim it is an anti-crime measure, but its chief sponsor, Daniel Bacquelaine, hasn't hesitated to describe it as an act of cultural warfare. "The burqa," he was quoted by Reuters as saying, "is the affirmation of a number of values that are contrary to fundamental values and universal values."

French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who is promoting a similar ban in his country, is equally blunt: "The burqa has no place in France," he has said. Fundamentalist Muslim rulers must have been pleased to hear those words: Paris will now have no cause for complaint when countries with Christian or Jewish minorities ban the nun's habit or the yarmulke.

The anti-burqa cause is sweeping Europe. In addition to Belgium and France, Italy and the Netherlands are considering bans. Yet the targets of these measures are virtually nonexistent. Mr. Bacquelaine estimates that a couple of hundred women in Belgium wear a full veil. In France, one study estimated that there are 1,900 burqa wearers in a Muslim population of 5 million.

The idea that this poses a criminal or cultural threat is ludicrous. Those who say they are defending women's rights have it exactly backward: They are violating fundamental rights to free expression and religious freedom. They are also exacerbating the very problem they say they are worried about. Muslims, including the devoutly religious, are in Europe to stay. Banning their customs, their clothing or their places of worship will not make them more European. It will only make Europe less free.

And what's more is that other European countries are about to come to grips on such a vote in the near future. I understand where they are coming from by implementing these laws in terms of stopping crime, but could this move have an anti-Muslim agenda behind them. Keep in context that Muslim and Christian countries have rarely seen eye to eye. Even under the best of circumstances, the European relationship with the Islamic world has always been one of a inequality. Often times it is the clash of cultures and ideologies. East vs West, resources, and so forth. What I really ask myself about Belgium's law: is it different from Arizona's immigration law which attempts to stem an illegal act, or a thinly disguised way of promoting racial (and in this case religious) profiling? Why was there absolutely no opposition?

Well, what do you think?

**Soladrin**

Cause Belgium is filled with mostly idiots? I live 5 minutes from it.

In all seriousness, Haven't heard a word about this yet. But it has often times been proposed here, and always dismissed.

**WarOne**

Hmm...five minutes you say?

Well, from what I gather, they have a government representation system similar to us in America what with a bi-cameral legislation. This particular vote is the equivalent of the lower house passing a bill. Now it must travel to the upper house and then I assume someone from an executive branch is involved.

Since you live right in Europe, what do you think of the mood of the people concern this?

**Kilkrazy**

A lot of people will support this. It comes from the same reactionary, xenophobic thinking as the minaret ban in Switzerland though it is dressed up with a bit of Women's Lib to make it look superficially not anti-Islamic.

Everyone doesn't think that way, though, so I am surprised that the vote would be nearly unanimous.

Of course, Europe like much of the world is currently gripped by the financial crisis, recession and a general fear that we have lost our position as "top nations" and can look forwards to declining living standards and higher taxes.

In such circumstances popular opinion turns to scapegoats. The rise of militant Islamism gives an easy focus.

While I don't agree with burqas, I don't believe you can set women free by locking them up.

**Soladrin**

WarOne wrote:Hmm...five minutes you say?

Well, from what I gather, they have a government representation system similar to us in America what with a bi-cameral legislation. This particular vote is the equivalent of the lower house passing a bill. Now it must travel to the upper house and then I assume someone from an executive branch is involved.

Since you live right in Europe, what do you think of the mood of the people concern this?

Most people here are turning anti-moslim for a few reason:

Old people are just racist.

Young folk get confronted constantly by the crime waves that young immigrants bring along. So noways the finger always get pointed at Turks or Maroks, because theirs a high chance one of those was involved.

Stabbings and such are becoming more frequent due to these people too. So all in all, the general populace thinks their to blame for every tiny thing that happens these days.

The worst part however is, that the new generation (age 18 to 2X) are acting completely like the stereo type labels them. They have a style that go's hand in hand with criminals. They never bother to properly learn the language(which gives me epic rage) and are generally anywhere between a nuisance to a real threat whenever you come across them.

**Waaagh_Gonads**

from WarOne's quote of Wshington Post.

Like many of its neighbors, Belgium has a significant minority Muslim population -- about 3 percent of a population of 10 million. Like those neighbors, it has done a poor job of integrating Muslim immigrants, and many cluster in ghettos that can be breeding grounds for extremism. This is a serious and complex problem. But too often the response of governments has been bigotry directed at immigrants or Muslims as a whole -- which serves only to further alienate even non-devout members of the community.

Rubbish, it won't alienate non-devout members as they won't be wearing a burqua.

**Soladrin**

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:from WarOne's quote of Wshington Post.

Like many of its neighbors, Belgium has a significant minority Muslim population -- about 3 percent of a population of 10 million. Like those neighbors, it has done a poor job of integrating Muslim immigrants, and many cluster in ghettos that can be breeding grounds for extremism. This is a serious and complex problem. But too often the response of governments has been bigotry directed at immigrants or Muslims as a whole -- which serves only to further alienate even non-devout members of the community.

Rubbish, it won't alienate non-devout members as they won't be wearing a burqua.

The rubbish here is that about 75% of those aren't looking to integrate, but to live off the state (something that anyone with half a brain is perfectly capable of in this country)

**WarOne**

@Soladrin: Can you explain to me what a "Marok" is? I don't think I have ever heard that term before.

Old people racist? Perhaps. They become fundamentally conservative and reactionary. Their generation may of had a dislike for Islam, but I don't know if in general they could be called racist.

@ Waaagh_Gonads: Perhaps it won't alienate most non-devout members, but it will enfranchise the reactionary and extreme minority to justify violence and anti-Western rhetoric. So the other way to look at it is that it will empower some to become reactionary or change their perception to a more standoff-ish stance with European nations.

**sebster**

Kilkrazy wrote:A lot of people will support this. It comes from the same reactionary, xenophobic thinking as the minaret ban in Switzerland though it is dressed up with a bit of Women's Lib to make it look superficially not anti-Islamic.

Everyone doesn't think that way, though, so I am surprised that the vote would be nearly unanimous.

Of course, Europe like much of the world is currently gripped by the financial crisis, recession and a general fear that we have lost our position as "top nations" and can look forwards to declining living standards and higher taxes.

In such circumstances popular opinion turns to scapegoats. The rise of militant Islamism gives an easy focus.

The rise of anti-Muslim bigotry was on the up and up before the GFC, its been pretty steadily growing in legitimacy since 9/11.

While I don't agree with burqas, I don't believe you can set women free by locking them up.

Yeah, absolutely. The idea that if you impose another rule on a women she'll suddenly become free and liberated is so utterly stupid it has to be rejected as completely disingenuous. This is about trying to exert control over a group that people are afraid of.

**Soladrin**

WarOne wrote:@Soladrin: Can you explain to me what a "Marok" is? I don't think I have ever heard that term before.

Old people racist? Perhaps. They become fundamentally conservative and reactionary. Their generation may of had a dislike for Islam, but I don't know if in general they could be called racist.

@ Waaagh_Gonads: Perhaps it won't alienate most non-devout members, but it will enfranchise the reactionary and extreme minority to justify violence and anti-Western rhetoric. So the other way to look at it is that it will empower some to become reactionary or change their perception to a more standoff-ish stance with European nations.

Marok,someone from Marokko (no clue what the proper word for such person would be in english so i just used that)

And I called old people racist to get the general idea across.

But my dad is a good example for this, he's not racist or anything, but you just notice a general disliking.

But I'm not sure if Belgium has a worse or better immigrant situation compared to The Netherlands.

**sebster**

Soladrin wrote:Marok,someone from Marokko (no clue what the proper word for such person would be in english so i just used that)

We call the place Morocco, and people from there Moroccans.

And I called old people racist to get the general idea across. But my dad is a good example for this, he's not racist or anything, but you just notice a general disliking.

Yeah, it isn't necessarily outright racism, just an intolerance to differences and a heightened sensitivity to any sleight they may be perceived to give.

**loki old fart**

This is better coverage of story.
Also shows alternatives in muslim head wear

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8652861.stm

**Kilkrazy**

sebster wrote:

The rise of anti-Muslim bigotry was on the up and up before the GFC, its been pretty steadily growing in legitimacy since 9/11.

Don't forget we had a mini recession in the early 2000s thanks to the Dot Com crash.

**Million**

I hope that such a law might facilitate integration of Muslim immigrants into society, but that's just naive. It's going to take more than that, and if anything it's just going to P*$s them off more

**loki old fart**

Only around 30 women wear this kind of veil in Belgium, out of a Muslim population of around half a million.

Might not be a big thing

**Soladrin**

loki old fart wrote:Only around 30 women wear this kind of veil in Belgium, out of a Muslim population of around half a million.

Might not be a big thing

You'v never been there have you?

**loki old fart**

Figure supplied by the BBC.

look at the link i posted

Then if you want go argue with them.

He,s the link again http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8652861.stm

**Soladrin**

I think they pulled that number out of their asses. Brussels alone has plenty walking around.

**Kilkrazy**

Million wrote:I hope that such a law might facilitate integration of Muslim immigrants into society, but that's just naive. It's going to take more than that, and if anything it's just going to P*$s them off more

Exactly. People integrate because they want to, not because they are forced to.

Integration doesn't mean making them doing exactly the same as us. It means them and us living in a society together. From that viewpoint, the burqa ban is a sad condemnation of the inability of Belgians to accept difference.

If they are so keen on women's rights they might like to do something about equal pay; clearly there is a different agenda operating.

**Soladrin**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Million wrote:I hope that such a law might facilitate integration of Muslim immigrants into society, but that's just naive. It's going to take more than that, and if anything it's just going to P*$s them off more

Exactly. People integrate because they want to, not because they are forced to.

Integration doesn't mean making them doing exactly the same as us. It means them and us living in a society together. From that viewpoint, the burqa ban is a sad condemnation of the inability of Belgians to accept difference.

If they are so keen on women's rights they might like to do something about equal pay; clearly there is a different agenda operating.

I don't completely agree with you there.

The problem with Muslim's is that they often don't accept other cultures, so even if Belgium does accept them, they still wouldn't integrate.

**ShumaGorath**

Soladrin wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
Million wrote:I hope that such a law might facilitate integration of Muslim immigrants into society, but that's just naive. It's going to take more than that, and if anything it's just going to P*$s them off more

Exactly. People integrate because they want to, not because they are forced to.

Integration doesn't mean making them doing exactly the same as us. It means them and us living in a society together. From that viewpoint, the burqa ban is a sad condemnation of the inability of Belgians to accept difference.

If they are so keen on women's rights they might like to do something about equal pay; clearly there is a different agenda operating.

I don't completely agree with you there.

The problem with Muslim's is that they often don't accept other cultures, so even if Belgium does accept them, they still wouldn't integrate.

You can replace muslims with essentially any lower class minority group in that sentence. What it should read like is instead that often times disenfranchised immigrant worker populations living under soft segregation typically form tight inner city communities wherein resentment of the nation at large is fostered through the xenophobia of the majority population.

**metallifan**

Soladrin wrote:

I don't completely agree with you there.

The problem with Muslim's is that they often don't accept other cultures, so even if Belgium does accept them, they still wouldn't integrate.

That's true for extremists, sure. But they operate under a perversion of the Muslim creed. True Muslims are very accepting, friendly people. Some might even say moreso than other deity-worshipping religious groups. My cousin in Vancouver has three Muslim friends and they're very enjoyable company. You can't stick a label on an entire group because of a small fraction of it's followers misinterpret it's rules and teachings. Well, okay - you can do that. It's just not the best way to go about.

**Kilkrazy**

We've got plenty of integrated muslims in the UK. They are the ones who had the chance for a good education and job and took advantage of it.

At the same time, we've got plenty of disenfranchised, embittered non-muslims, who grew up supposedly part of UK society but roam the streets doing drugs and petty crime. They are the ones who did not have the chance for a good education and job.

**loki old fart**

Kilkrazy wrote:We've got plenty of integrated muslims in the UK. They are the ones who had the chance for a good education and job and took advantage of it.

At the same time, we've got plenty of disenfranchised, embittered non-muslims, who grew up supposedly part of UK society but roam the streets doing drugs and petty crime. They are the ones who did not have the chance for a good education and job.

I dont quite agree with that.
We've got plenty of integrated muslims in the UK. They are the ones who had the chance for a good education and job and took advantage of it. yup agreed

We've got plenty of non integrated muslims in the UK.

we've got plenty of disenfranchised, embittered non-muslims, who grew up supposedly part of UK society but roam the streets doing drugs and petty crime. agreed again

They are the ones who did not have the chance for a good education and job, wrong most couldn't be arsed to learn.

**WarOne**

Kilkrazy wrote:We've got plenty of integrated muslims in the UK. They are the ones who had the chance for a good education and job and took advantage of it.

At the same time, we've got plenty of disenfranchised, embittered non-muslims, who grew up supposedly part of UK society but roam the streets doing drugs and petty crime. They are the ones who did not have the chance for a good education and job.

I'm pretty sure the disillusioned ones have tried. There is not enough room in a society for everyone, especially when it is a place that values freedom and choice above all. It is not like a totalitarian government where everyone has a specifcally defined roll. If you don't have a job, we'll they'll place you somewhere where you will work.

Does the UK attempt to help disenfranchised minorities at the very least give them advice and counseling as to how to transition into becoming or attempting to become good, upstanding citizens of the crown?

**loki old fart**

The uk goverment has adopted a policy of positive discrimination towards ethnic minorities.

**Kilkrazy**

loki old fart wrote:The uk goverment has adopted a policy of positive discrimination towards ethnic minorities.

Has it?

Excellent.

Now we can get rid of all those white chav wasters.

We can probably export them to the USA as long as we avoid Arizona.

Now that's what I call efficiency savings!

**ShumaGorath**

Kilkrazy wrote:
loki old fart wrote:The uk goverment has adopted a policy of positive discrimination towards ethnic minorities.

Has it?

Excellent.

Now we can get rid of all those white chav wasters.

We can probably export them to the USA as long as we avoid Arizona.

Now that's what I call efficiency savings!

They would get eaten alive over here.

**sebster**

Soladrin wrote:I don't completely agree with you there.

The problem with Muslim's is that they often don't accept other cultures, so even if Belgium does accept them, they still wouldn't integrate.

So what you're saying is that you believe a wildly varied religious group with a billion members from the western edge of Africa to the eastern edge of Asia has some inherent character that makes them resistance to change.

How many muslims have you personally met, that's caused you to form this opinion? How does this inherent muslim character differ from that of any other group of immigrants that have come to countries in the past, and had the exact same charge laid against them?

**Soladrin**

sebster wrote:
Soladrin wrote:I don't completely agree with you there.

The problem with Muslim's is that they often don't accept other cultures, so even if Belgium does accept them, they still wouldn't integrate.

So what you're saying is that you believe a wildly varied religious group with a billion members from the western edge of Africa to the eastern edge of Asia has some inherent character that makes them resistance to change.

How many muslims have you personally met, that's caused you to form this opinion? How does this inherent muslim character differ from that of any other group of immigrants that have come to countries in the past, and had the exact same charge laid against them?

Why would I be mentioning other immigrants? That's not what this thread is about. Don't put words in other peoples mouths would ya?

I base this on the fact that the situation has only gotten worse over the years.

And I've met plenty of them, and some are even good friends of mine, and they agree. They also told me that for some reason Muslim Immigrants hold much closer to their religion then those back in their homeland.