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So..if I have an MC climbing up to the top level of a ruin, is he safe from jaws, or can the player snipe him off the top?

Jpr wrote:So..if I have an MC climbing up to the top level of a ruin, is he safe from jaws, or can the player snipe him off the top?

Yes, he can hit him.

what about two enemy units that are in the same building but on different levels?

can i hit both units with jotww or is it limited to one floor like a flamer?

HamHamLunchbox wrote:what about two enemy units that are in the same building but on different levels?

can i hit both units with jotww or is it limited to one floor like a flamer?

Given you are only drawing a line, unless you can draw the line between the firing model and both of the targets then no, they cant both be hit.

well, if theyre lined up yes, as a line is a 2d construct viewed from the top down, if the line passes over both models they're both hit, regardless of floor.

hopefully your right ^_^

kill dem stunties wrote:well, if theyre lined up yes, as a line is a 2d construct viewed from the top down, if the line passes over both models they're both hit, regardless of floor.

Wrong. A line only exists one one plane at a time.

For example, a laser opperates in a straight line. If it is aimed directly over an object, the line will not intersect, or "hit" the object; however, when viewed from the top down, it would have appeared that it did. The "line" missed the object.

Same thing with jaws. Pick 2 points and draw a line between. If you draw the line from the priest to a point on one floor of a ruin, you will have to miss the others.

^ false.

A Laser operates in 3 Dimensions.

A Line (that is, an object with length, and no other dimension) is actually impossible to represent in 3d space.

Alerian wrote:

kill dem stunties wrote:well, if theyre lined up yes, as a line is a 2d construct viewed from the top down, if the line passes over both models they're both hit, regardless of floor.

Wrong. A line only exists one one plane at a time.

Personally, I think both are valid interpretations here, particularly given how similar effects have worked in the past. Either the power only affects models that it actually touches (at table level, since the JotWW rules say to draw the line across the board, so only models at ground level (or potentially standing on hills or on the 'ground level' of a given piece of terrain, depending again on personal interpretation of what constitutes the 'board') will ever be affected), or the power affects any model crossed by the line when viewed from above.


In lieu of clarification from GW, I would go with the latter, as it's how 'draw a line' powers have always worked previously.

Geometry is dead, and this thread is kicking the rotting corpse.

Would it be possible to get the term Flatlander added to the jargon dictionary with the meaning "A player who treats the game as taking place on a perfectly flat two dimensional surface, rather than a three dimensional surface with three dimensional terrain and models"?

solkan wrote:Would it be possible to get the term Flatlander added to the jargon dictionary ...

If it were in widespread use, it would certainly be possible.

It says to draw a straight line and that [all applicable models] touched by it must take the test. Its not making reference to bases here so perhaps one could angle the 'line' upwards and catch the top bits of some models and the bottom bits of other models in ruins? Would a straight line have to follow the straight table surface? The other way (looking downwards) would be akin to drawing a plane from the priest outwards...

From a common sense perspective: the ground opens up to swallow the priest's foe. The guy is in a man made structure above ground. What's the problem again?

I say jaws works on a line. If you're targetting a model standing on a hill, models behind the hill [say it's a tall hill] will be safe. The line at the angle it's going to hit the elevated model will continue upwards and miss the others.

Fluff might say it's a crack in the ground and thus continues on, but then again fluff says Ahriman is a good psyker

Slackermagee wrote:...so perhaps one could angle the 'line' upwards and catch the top bits of some models and the bottom bits of other models in ruins?

It says to draw the line along the table. So no, you can't angle it upwards.

From a common sense perspective: the ground opens up to swallow the priest's foe. The guy is in a man made structure above ground.

So you can argue that anything above ground level would be unaffected by the ground opening up... or you can argue that the rift in the ground extends up through the building... So no help there.

insaniak wrote:

Slackermagee wrote:...so perhaps one could angle the 'line' upwards and catch the top bits of some models and the bottom bits of other models in ruins?

It says to draw the line along the table. So no, you can't angle it upwards.

From a common sense perspective: the ground opens up to swallow the priest's foe. The guy is in a man made structure above ground.

So you can argue that anything above ground level would be unaffected by the ground opening up... or you can argue that the rift in the ground extends up through the building... So no help there.

I would think the ground opening up underneath a man made structure might do some damage to the structure

Draw a line. Not draw a 'plane'.

Gawr! wrote:
A Line (that is, an object with length, and no other dimension) is actually impossible to represent in 3d space.

A line *does* exist in our three dimensions. It's our 2 extra Ds, width and depth, that don't exist for the line's 1st D.


A long similar thread ended in another forum with my first two lines here: Draw a line, not a 2D plane, that would slice on up into a ruin.

If the MC were on a long bridge, that the JoWW ran under, would you call it a viable target?

jihallah wrote:I would think the ground opening up underneath a man made structure might do some damage to the structure

If build by unlicensed contractors, and not up to California Code, sure.

Brother - reread what Gwar! said, he said it was impossible to *represent* - which is true. We cannot show a 1D line, ever.

I would love a clip of Brothererekose trying to draw a 1D line

Also i suggest that units on a structure whos foundation is hit by the jaws would be hit by the jaws themselfs on a 4+, thus representing the fact that unless the ground opens unther the structurres support it cannot hurt the model up top, and the 4+ represents the fact that having stuff under you that can clog up the hole is somewhat better than falling in unobstructed.

Actually, we can represent a line in 3D space, since represent simply means to have something stand for, or symbolize. So a piece of string certainly could represent a line. It wouldnt actually be a true line, but it could represent a line.

For Jaws it says to trace a straight line along the board, this would seem to preclude angling the line up (or down) at an angle since this probably would no longer be along the board.

The difficulty comes in for what they mean by "touched by this line", and what that does with models that are above the line. By strict RAW any model above the plane of the board would be safe, but the FAQ has said that jetbikes are still affected by the power. So it seems that while GW wrote line, they may well indeed have faqed it to now mean plane




Sliggoth

You CAN represent\show a line in 3D space, it simply does not have any measurable properties in more then one demension. For example an objects path can be a line, it has no height or width but it has a length. If the said path changes its angle it still does not have a height or width of its own it is only representing the objects point of referance at a given time.

As far as a ruling on this I was all for it being hit until insaniaks last post. I would say either A. coin toss or B. toss the fluff and treat it as a shooting attack

You cannot represent a LINE in 3D space. You can represent something that LOOKS like a Line, or is as close to a line as possible in 3D space, but you cannot actually have a 1D object existing in 3D space.

Of course the point is moot since we actually use 4 dimensions xD

Uhm....but thats what represent means. Represent means something that is NOT the actual idea/ item/ thing being represented. So when one uses a string to represent a line, one isnt making a line....its a representation of a line.

Represent means to symbolize or stand for, its not the actual thing being represented. So looking like a line is representing a line, by definiton.


So yes one can represent a line in 3D.




Sliggoth

Right now Gwar! you're changing the argument into weither or not zero is a number. If a property of an object isn't measurable you are trying to say that it still exists, you're not wrong about this but it's not the kind of discussion that goes anywhere so I'm out.

This clearly isn't going anywhere useful.

Discuss it with your opponent until GW get around to FAQing it.