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I will say upfront that I play Dark Eldar, so skimmer rules are fairly important to me.

I have seen the arguments on shooting under skimmers and modeling for advantage. However in the rulebook (pg.71) it says that skimmers cannot be left hovering in midair at the end of their movement turn. Does this not say or at least imply that the skimmer has landed at the end of it's movement phase and that shooting underneath would be disallowed? It would make sense, since embarking/disembarking troops would not have to leap 6-7" into the air to board a Valk. I have always played that you could not shoot under, but a Tau player was convinced he could castle up his Devilfish and shoot from underneath.

My second question is on skimmer movement. Skimmers ignore intervening terrain, so you can measure straight line distance without accounting for heighth of terrain, correct? So I was at my FLGS and my opponent told me that if I landed on top of terrain (a building) that I had to measure diagonal distance from ground level to the chosen landing area. I cannot find anything that supports his position, but I played it that way just to avoid an argument. I was close enough anyway. What do you think?

The rule about not hovering in mid-air means skimmers can't be left sitting above difficult terrain or models at the end of their move.

Eldar skimmers don't have landing gear so they never land as such, they just hover low above the ground (in fluff).

In game, a skimmer by strict RAW can't be taken off its base so even skimmers which do have landing gear, such as Tau, can't land.

The rules do not specify if you measure horizontally or diagonally when moving up hills, however I believe most players measure diagonally for conventional models (non-skimmers).

Vehicles aren't in the list of models which can move into the upper levels of ruined buildings though there is nothing to stop them moving onto intact buildings with flat roofs, effectively you are treating the building as a hill.

The rules for jump infantry etc imply that move distance is measured horizontally, as do the rules for skimmers. Certainly there is no mention of having to move diagonally to take into account moves above intervening terrain and models.

The examples of models which can move into ruins, and have skimming/jumping ability, simply take a dangerous terrain test and are place within 12 inches horizontal distance of their start point including on a different level. This reinforces the previous point about not having to measure up to go over things.

As i understand it,the Tau are the only race in 40k to be able to fire under skimmers.I have not read the codex recently,but i have 2 players at my club and i will be reading up on it to be sure.On the movement front,myself and friends at the BWG ( my club ) tend towards diagonal measures from heights.

Its true line of sight, if you can see an enemy unit under the skimmer take your shots.

anyone can theoretically fire under a skimmer as the current edition uses true LOS. tau just have a strategy that completely depends on it (fish o' fury) but not any special rules or exemptions to help them. the skimmer per raw must stay on the base until immoblized; if your figures from their eye level can see an enemy unit, they can attempt to shoot at it. the unit would get a cover save as you are shooting "through" another unit (the skimmer), though.

warboss wrote:anyone can theoretically fire under a skimmer as the current edition uses true LOS. tau just have a strategy that completely depends on it (fish o' fury) but not any special rules or exemptions to help them. the skimmer per raw must stay on the base until immoblized; if your figures from their eye level can see an enemy unit, they can attempt to shoot at it. the unit would get a cover save as you are shooting "through" another unit (the skimmer), though.

You would not be shooting "through" the skimmer unit, but "under" it. Since the cover rules specifically say you have to be firing through a unit, and not over it, for the intervening unit to grant a cover save, a skimmer does not grant a cover save for firing under it by default.

However, if the skimmer does obscure some part of the target model's "body" (head, arms, legs, torso) then that model does count as being in cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As far as moving a unit goes, you measure from the starting point to the ending point. If the ending point is indeed on a different plane (above or below) the starting point, then you'll be measuring diagonally. If you fly completely over the intervening terrain, then you'd measure in a "straight line."

A target does not get a cover save for being shot at through a "vehicle unit".

In the case of a single vehicle, if the target is partially obscured by the vehicle it gets a save. If the shooters can see clearly past the vehicle the target does not get a save.

This is different to the case of a unit of infantry, who act like area terrain.

There is no invisable wall stopping anyone from firing under them. 40k uses true line of site, If the model can see the enemy to shoot at him he can shoot at him. If he can not see he can not shoot.

The fish of fury tactic that was so popular with tau in previous editions does not stop tau from being shot. It does provide some issues with them being assulted though.

The reason the Tau are able to do this is because GW modeled over half of the infantry in low running or kneeling positions that so that they actually have a direct LoS under the vehicle.

Eldar/DE are tall enough that the vehicle becomes more of a problem.

An interesting spin-off query.

What if you are a Tau player and buy two boxes of infantry, then swap the kneeling models all into one unit in order to pull off Fish of Fury with the whole squad getting TLoS.

Clever, or sharp practice?

What if you swap all your standing Tau with other people, so you only have kneeling Tau?

Very clever

Very sharp

and 100% legal.


Not that I would ever do such a thing, but then now that we're talking about it.........

BUT THAT LEADS TO CRAWLING WRAITHLORDS!

And the End of the World as we Know it!

With my Eldar, as long as I put the wave serpent on the tallest stand, my infantry can see under it just fine.

@KillKrazy: Clever, sharp and unnecassary. Doesn't it say in the rules that if more then half of the squad can see so many of the enemy that the entire squad may fire? So swapping every kneeling one into a single squad would acctually hurt your effectivness wouldn't it?

The reason the Tau are able to do this is because GW modeled over half of the infantry in low running or kneeling positions that so that they actually have a direct LoS under the vehicle.

Eldar/DE are tall enough that the vehicle becomes more of a problem.

Also all Tau vehicles come with the longer flight stem that their drones use so even standing models can happily see under the vehicle if you choose to use that stem.

Do Eldar vehciles also come with the longer stem these days (haven't bought one for ages)?

ComputerGeek01 wrote:@KillKrazy: Clever, sharp and unnecassary. Doesn't it say in the rules that if more then half of the squad can see so many of the enemy that the entire squad may fire? So swapping every kneeling one into a single squad would acctually hurt your effectivness wouldn't it?

No, EVERY model must be able to draw LOS to at least *one* model in the targetr unit, else it may not fire.

OK, supplementary question...

If you did corral all of your kneeling Tau FWs into one squad, would it be legal to deploy them from the Devilfish for Fish Of Fury, then re-embark them and swap the actual set of infantry models for a different set (all standing) to claim an objective.

Then re-deploy your kneeling set from another Devilfish.

???

IMO this would be very sharp practice and would lead to disagreements even if it is legal.

OTOH I think it would be perfectly legal to throw away all your standing FW models and just have kneeling ones in your army. This would probably also lead to arguments, however.

I dont know of any rule that allows you to change the model you use during the game, so I dont see how it could be legal - a definably "different" squad has come out of the vehicle the second time.

A minor point of wording:

Heavymetal wrote:Skimmers ignore intervening terrain, ...

Skimmers don't ignore terrain. They are simply allowed to move over all terrain.

You're supposed to measure the actual movement of the model. Opinions on whether this means you should measure the actual path of the movement or simply the distance from start point to end point are divided.

From my experience, most players measure from start point to end point for skimmers, jetbikes and jump infantry, and actual path for everything else. Whether or not that's how it's intended to be done is anyone's guess.

nosferatu1001 wrote:I dont know of any rule that allows you to change the model you use during the game, so I dont see how it could be legal - a definably "different" squad has come out of the vehicle the second time.

100% legal, but is definitly a Dbag move

as long as the Models have the same equipment you really can't say they are "different"

How is it 100% legal, do the rules tell you that you can do it? If they don't, then you can't.

Yeah you can't swap models, permissive ruleset etc etc


The LoS and stand thing has been brought up a few hundred times. if you can see under the tank from the model's eyes to the target model they can fire. if they have a clear LoS they don't get cover, but if they can see you you can be fired on back. There is upsides and downsides to having tall or short flight stands and in my personal experience a short flight stand is 100% better for those times you need to block LoS to your unit before they fire or your trying to hide your skimmer behind terrain.

If you can't change the base on a model then i don't see how changing the model itself can be legal??? as for the line of sight thing i think it's a pretty simple concept, If you can see them they can see you, If you can't see them they can't see you.

lhysokidae wrote:If you can't change the base on a model then i don't see how changing the model itself can be legal??? as for the line of sight thing i think it's a pretty simple concept, If you can see them they can see you, If you can't see them they can't see you.

It's not that simple.

LoS is from the eye of the shooter to the body of the target. It's entirely possible for this not to work in both directions, especially if one side has the advantage of kneeling down models behind an obstruction which is at eye level to standing models.

That's without going into the complications of TLoS vs area terrain, units, big bases and banners, and the way ranges and LoS is drawn to and from vehicles.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

ComputerGeek01 wrote:@KillKrazy: Clever, sharp and unnecassary. Doesn't it say in the rules that if more then half of the squad can see so many of the enemy that the entire squad may fire? So swapping every kneeling one into a single squad would acctually hurt your effectivness wouldn't it?

No, EVERY model must be able to draw LOS to at least *one* model in the targetr unit, else it may not fire.

No yourself BGB page 16 "which models can fire" – "All models in the firing unit that have line of sight to at least one model of the unit can fire."
So the unit can still fire if some of its members don't have LOS, not only that but dudes that can't fire are ignored for the purpoces of giving cover, as on page 21 only the firer's LOS is given for that purpoce, so models that don't shoot are ignored, thus kneeling models, if low enough, can "fish of fury" shoot you with no cover whyle standing ones won't shoot at all.

Erm, please reread. It says the exact opposite of what you think it does.


I said each model that *wants* to fire MUST have line of sight to do so, which is what P16 states. I didnt say you cannot fire if the whole unit cant see, whcih is possibly what you're thinking here...

It might be my bad english buut this part of your post seems to claim that unless all the models in a unit have los they all can't shoot.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, EVERY model must be able to draw LOS to at least *one* model in the targetr unit, else it may not fire.

SRB p.16
Which Models Can Fire?
All models in the firing unit that have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit can fire.

Gwar! wrote:BUT THAT LEADS TO CRAWLING WRAITHLORDS!

And the End of the World as we Know it!

actually i've had a kneeling writhlord since 3rd edition :-)

Based on this thread I am heat bending all of my IG into the prone position. They are have not gone to ground that is simply how I built them, and as far as being able to see them? Try to tell me that you can see them in cover.

Now are we done with the chedder abuse of the rules?