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So does anyone use command squads?

How do you outfit them if you want them to be melee oriented?

Shooting oriented?

A mix?

I'm lost here people!

They are flexible.
IMO, they are best as shooting platforms with special weapons spamming as you have other options for assault elements.

Well, Cmd squads are not worth their points.
They are pricey and not much better than Tacticals in cc.
Each premium assault squad beats it, hands down.
If you want a Cmd squad, then as Sanctjud said outfit it for shooting.

I have to say all things considered I agree. I think putting a Captain + Command Squad in a Rhino is not a bad option with the following:

I'll outfit them for assault weapons. Perhaps 3 Melta Guns and the Captains Combi-Melta will suffice to put the hurtin' on anyone foolish enough to get close. I'll give the rest of the squad standard boltguns to ensure my squad has survivability.

They only really look attractive with max PGs since you have the Apothecary there for a little safety.

Initiative 4 makes them just silly to outfit for assault.

PG's are something I never considered. I will look at point cost and see if I could toss one or two of those in the squad instead.

kaptaink wrote:They only really look attractive with max PGs since you have the Apothecary there for a little safety.

Initiative 4 makes them just silly to outfit for assault.

Explain

Initiatve 4 is not bad afterall if they had TH/SS then they would be Initiative 1. Add to this the fact that they are wearing power armour and have FNP and I fail to see how their relatively high Initiative matters

Ed_Bodger wrote:

kaptaink wrote:They only really look attractive with max PGs since you have the Apothecary there for a little safety.

Initiative 4 makes them just silly to outfit for assault.

Explain

Initiatve 4 is not bad afterall if they had TH/SS then they would be Initiative 1. Add to this the fact that they are wearing power armour and have FNP and I fail to see how their relatively high Initiative matters

But, if they all had TH/SS the whole squad would be just shy of 400pts, also the Apothecary can't take any equipment from the list so it's only a matter of time before he gets sniped out, or just fails a save when you're being outnumbered because the squad can only ever be five strong.

You take the 400pt Command Squad with TH/SS and I'll take a squad of 10 Assault Terminators with TH/SS, and we'll see who wins.

Low model count and cost are big issues with them. Special Weapons keep them 'cheap', safer ranges of engagement, and adds something other units can't do efficiently (special weapon spam).

kaptaink wrote:

Ed_Bodger wrote:

kaptaink wrote:They only really look attractive with max PGs since you have the Apothecary there for a little safety.

Initiative 4 makes them just silly to outfit for assault.

Explain

Initiatve 4 is not bad afterall if they had TH/SS then they would be Initiative 1. Add to this the fact that they are wearing power armour and have FNP and I fail to see how their relatively high Initiative matters

But, if they all had TH/SS the whole squad would be just shy of 400pts, also the Apothecary can't take any equipment from the list so it's only a matter of time before he gets sniped out, or just fails a save when you're being outnumbered because the squad can only ever be five strong.

You take the 400pt Command Squad with TH/SS and I'll take a squad of 10 Assault Terminators with TH/SS, and we'll see who wins.

That was not my point not every unit has to be capable of beating Assault Terminators although everyone does seem fixated with them. The marines codex is relitivley weak on viable assault units other than Assault Terminators and Ironclads - Vanguard are too expensive and Assault Squads are very underwhelming. A Command Squad with a decent character gives you a viable assault option in addition to your terminators.

Also I did not suggest arming them with TH/SS I said that if they were they would strike at I1 and people don't complain about that. You can pack 5 PW into a Command Squad with a Captain and at I4 on the charge that is a decent ammount of attacks.

5 single LC's are superior MEQ and up.
5 PW is better vs. GEQ but not a great use of points on anti-them.

Ed_Bodger wrote:

kaptaink wrote:

Ed_Bodger wrote:

kaptaink wrote:

That was not my point not every unit has to be capable of beating Assault Terminators although everyone does seem fixated with them. The marines codex is relitivley weak on viable assault units other than Assault Terminators and Ironclads - Vanguard are too expensive and Assault Squads are very underwhelming. A Command Squad with a decent character gives you a viable assault option in addition to your terminators.

Also I did not suggest arming them with TH/SS I said that if they were they would strike at I1 and people don't complain about that. You can pack 5 PW into a Command Squad with a Captain and at I4 on the charge that is a decent ammount of attacks.

Sorry, I see what you mean now. C:SM is indeed pretty weak in assault.

The only reason people take TH Assault Terminators is the survivability vs. point cost. It's really high, mixed with a huge strength attack it's just a good choice.

But, taking claws or p.weapons really isn't that great because anything assault dedicated will destroy you, and anything a I4 Marine would walk through with a p.weapon he would walk through without one (in most cases).

I've had success with them as a fire-support/counter-assault unit. Captain w/relic blade and 2 meltaguns in the unit. I hold them back in a razorback; shoot the razorback 'til it gets wasted then pile out and assault whatever gets to the backfield. I keep it as cheap as possible and usually just pay around 260 pts for the unit.

Let me put this out there.

I like bringing a different list to almost every game I play. It keeps the game fresh and allows me different strategic challenges every game.

This list I wanted a Captain w/ Artificier Armor,TH, and combi-melta to run with a command squad armed with a few Power Weapons. No matter how I look at it though, they either make too big a target with not enough staying power, or I have to arm them with assault weapons and keep them out of melee, thus wasting the Captain's strengths.

Is it just me, or do named characters make up the majority of the decent HQ choices in the SM codex?

ZombieKoolaid wrote:
Is it just me, or do named characters make up the majority of the decent HQ choices in the SM codex?

Your options are as follows:
Lysander
Vulkan
Librarian

Kantor and Sicarius are good. If you must have a chaplain, take Cassius.

Otherwise no, the rest are pretty bad. Captains without bikes are rarely seen. I haven't seen a Chaplain on the table in 5th edition.

I haven't seen a Chaplain on the table in 5th edition.

ROFL, I just realized I could say the same thing...

I sometimes run a chaplain with 10 Assault marines - I always regret it

I sometimes run a chaplain with 10 Assault marines - I always regret it

As you should, nobody should field jump packs outside of Blood Angels. Not unless you are super experienced and have a good battle plan with them as it relates to your overall list.

Here is my "base line" command squad that I have run to good effect.

Apothecary
Lightning Claw, Storm Shield
Lightning Claw, Storm Shield
Meltagun
Company Standard

= 200 Points

Add Bikes and you are at 290 points.


I have run that with a Captain w/ a Storm Shield and Thunderhammer in a Vulkan list. Vulkan, the Captian, in that command squad, in t Land Raider is a fairly decent combat element, that can be combined with another Land Raider carrying Thunderhammer Terminators for a one two punch.

The only downside is the lack of Psychic Defense in the list, which is a big deal on the top tables, but it is most certainly doable.

Funnily enough, I had the same question after I modelled a command squad "just because they are cool fluff-wise"...

AND..

I made it assault orientated.

My thoughts are up on my blog...

http://eyeforterror.com/?p=401


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh, and as far as effectiveness goes, they survived a first turn drop-pod assault with 8 sternguard without a single loss, and then charged in and wiped them out to a man.

I think it was the SS + FNP that worked like a charm...

If you go with Storm Shields, then a Lightning claw is superior, period. So IMO, use count as for that.

Else, it's meh. The Ability to add more bread and butter special weapons is a big deal.

Though command squads are really there to either compliment or suppliment the list, either job is good, though if one is running a biker list and working to avoid combatty mess, then the command squad seems like an insurance policy... a very expensive one... like the power fist to a Tactical/bike squad.

Else...Sternguard shooting the Command Squad is kind of a poor choice...(with respect to not having any more information on the situation).

Edit: I just realized you are talking about Sanguinary Guard...well... they are slightly different. They have Furious Charge built in, so that favors the combat side of things.
In addition your troopers have double special weapon capabilities, where-as SMurfs can only do that if they invest in bikers and a chaptain on a bike first...

Biker command squads are definitely the way to go. Apothecary + 2 meltaguns + a few storm shields and lightning claws mixed in make for flexible and deadly unit. The combination of T5, storm shields, and apothecary gives them the durability they need to go along with their cost. And the bikes make sure that they don’t get stranded by someone popping their transport and then just avoiding them.

Ed_Bodger wrote:I sometimes run a chaplain with 10 Assault marines - I always regret it

Oh really?
I'd consider such a unit in a list in which Rhino squads and Assault squads work in tandem.
Its a kind of 4/5th edition Rhino rush.

The truth is, I am guilty of playing a assault oriented command squad.

I have a mobile transport/bike army that runs Khan. For the command squad I have bikes, 3x power weapon, and the company champion. This gives me 4 models on bikes that have 3 str 4 power weapon attacks and the apothecary base. because I run them with Khan, on the charge those 4 bikers have 4 str 5 power weapon attacks each. I mostly did this because I wanted bikes with pistol/CCW, but it is a fun squad. It tears through MEQ, but swarms drag down squads of such few models. I can often get the charge thanks to the bikes, but I sometimes wish I was running a storm shield for the extra invul save. The squad costs 265 pts.

I played a game with them. Ended up going with:

Captain:

Thunder Hammer
Combi-Melta
Digital Weapons

Command Squad
2 x Power Swords
2 x Meltaguns

In a Rhino (Don't have any Razorbacks yet) they ran straight down the middle with my Dreads walking to keep up. The Squad second turn hops out, runs 6 and fires 3 melta's (the captain went ahead and said "boo"), and popped an enemy Wave Serpent.

Out come dire avengers and My dreads just walked up with HF and cancelled Christmas. Following enemy turn they took heavy fire and I only lost 1 veteran w/power sword.

Rest of the game they kept running round doing much the same but to lesser degree's of success. I like the way they played though. If I tweak it a little more I can drop the power weapons and just make this a good assault weapon squad. Captain was useless after the first turn though, no one wanted his lunch money bad enough.

I would do the following to my squad:
1 Chapter Champ
1 Company Banner
2 Flamers
1 Plasma
Apothecary

Razorback with twin-linked ACs.

i've been having luck with my biker command squad...

3x vets with lightning claws and stormshields
apothecary
champion

320 points total... but they tear meq units apart, leaving the rest of my bikers to focus on heavier units. You can't ignore meq units, because they can assault things you don't want them to, but you can't focus all your shooting on them if there are things like dreadnoughts / predators / terminators running around that demand melta/plasma love more. This is where the command squad comes in... it can take down those meqs without much fuss, and even go toe to toe with monstrous creatures, thanks to stormshields and claws.

The other day I ran a tooled up close combat command squad in a fun game. It had two marines with storm shields, one of them with a thunder hammer and the other with a power sword. A power fist, a marine with a storm bolter and power sword, and an apothecary. All run with a Captain that had a power sword and digital weapons. Not very point efficient I know, but it was one thing to see the block of heroes charge headlong into a pack of Gargoyles and then into the Hive Tyrant. Only the captain and the apothecary lasted till the end (failed both storm shield save on the turn I killed the tyrant and would of walked away with acceptable casualties :() to kill a Broodlord and hop back in their Rhino to contest an objective.


All in all it wasnt very competitive by any stretch of the imagination, but it was fun and a suitable guard for my Captain, they did win their points back.

In terms of efficiency, nothing beats 4x plasma guns + apoth. All CC builds seem inferior to assault terminators for more points.

Usually when I run a command squad I kit it out like this.
Captain with artificer armor SS RB
1 TH/Flamer
1 TH/Combimelta
1 PF/Combimelta
1 PW/Combimelta
Apothecary
Razorback

Another way I run command squads are as a complete shooting unit.

4 meltaguns Drop Pod, 4 PG in DP, or 4 Flamers in DP

Not the best options but they aren't the worst either.

The guys over at Capture and Control wrote an article about generic HQ choices which talked a little about command squads, check it out here.

I'm building up the 4x plasmagun variety right now. I plan to park them someplace with cover (or with elevation to boost my LOS), and shoot my heart out.

You can tool them for close combat, though my inclination is to keep them cheap, and attached to your captain. His attacks at I5 and S6 (via relic blade) will whittle down enemy units so you have fewer attacks coming back at you to tempt the fates of those 5 Marines. Give the captain artificer armor, and he becomes a rock in close combat. The enemy must decide if they want to pile attacks on the command squad to try to take down the Apothecary, or take down the Captain and stop the I5 bleeding.

You do have to be selective about what you target with them, though. Like all Marine melee units, avoid power weapon-heavy squads like the plague. FNP is a huge boon to the squad and captain, and to lose that to lots of power weapons is a shame.

You might also want to look at the Chapter Banner. Rerolls to failed morale and pinning tests, plus that +1 to combat resolution can keep you in the fight shoud luck turn against you. Staying in combat means you don't get your butt shot off in the next turn.