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I tried building my own list, however it always results in alot of points going into upgrades, some which go unused.
But I inquired with a seasoned player at my FLGS and this is a 1000pt force we built for a game I played against an ultramarines player.

HQ- Demon Prince with mark of Tzeentch and wings

Troops- 2 10 man CSM squads both with AC, one with fist the other with power sword. and 2 meltas and mark of chaos glory for one squad while the other had 2 flamers
-both squads had a dedicated rhino with dozer blade.

Elites- 4 man terminator squad with mark of nurgle, champion, 2 power fists, a chainfist and a reaper autocannon

Heavy support- vindicator with demonic possession

Total- 945

I used this list in a 1000pt game and was able to secure victory over a SM player. So is this a good list? should I stick to it? suggestions? and If I wanted to increase this list to 1500 or even 2000 what should I add? (I have alot of minis although not many special characters and no defiler)

Well, if it worked for you I'd say stick with it. I run my CSM as pure Night Lords so that means no god marks, plague marines, thousand sons, etc. I usually go easy on the upgrades and opt for more guys on the board. I'd maybe bring some more anti-tank long range fire power. Maybe a land raider or predator with lascannons? I like to have two units that can do a job, just in case one of them gets taken out early. If your vindicator gets wiped out your stuck with just the 12 inch range meltas in the anti-tank role.

That list is fine and I can see it working well, but it isn't anything amazing.

Does the prince have a psychic power? With the mark of tzeentch he can take (and use!) two. It gets expensive though. I would at least give him warptime.

What do the terminators do? The points for the reaper autocannon may be better spent on combi-meltas for everyone if they're getting close and getting into combat. Otherwise you could take Havocs with autocannons and get more bang for your buck probably.

If you liked this list, and wanted to expand it, you would probably be best off duplicating units. Add another vindicator, another rhino full of dudes, etc. If you didn't want to duplicate, then I'd recommend plague marines in a rhino, and obliterators. As you got to 1500 and beyond you'd consider adding a second HQ...and a lash prince or lash sorcerer is always a good choice, and works well with vindicators too.

thanks for the suggestions.

To answer some questions.

-I ditched the idea of a full fluff friendly Night Lords force, while I like the fluff I don't think I could give up all those options for the sake of back story.

-as for long range, with more points I will definitely add havocs and a land raider.

-no the prince didn't have any powers, though I definitely would add some, what is recommended?

-As for the terminators, they were brought in through DS 6" from the icon the melta squad had. the autocannon was used as suppressing fire. the terms and melat squad worked together to defeat enemy terms and wrecked 2 vehicles with the meltas fists and the chainfist.

Oh, 2 more questions which god specific troops are recommend. (I own a squad of each). and i also have Typhus, is he worth his 225pts?

I generally hear Typhus is a huge point sink and not worth it. I'm not aware of anyone using him. On the flip side your opponents might not expect him, of course I don't know if that equals winning. Your right about the fluff being a huge handcuff, but the extra challenge can be nice, and it looks sweet.

Fluffy NL play VERY well, and of all the "handcuff" legions I find NL to be among the strongest.

For an increase to 1500 I'dd suggest a 5 man CSM squad, in rhino, and a Squad of raptors.

Might consider blood angels or vanilla space marines because of their better jump troops(and jump squads as troops in some cases) and since night lords are very chaos-gift lite they work out there as well. You could take shrike and be even better off.

If you stick with chaos I would take a token lord for my HQ, 3 squads of termicide, small squads of csm /w melta + rhino, and some kind of inexpensive HS like a few AC/LC preds or autocannon havocs.

For your chosen list I think your term squad is very expensive and either should be changed to termicide (3x terms /w 3x combi-melta) or changed for regular csm troops /w melta + rhino. Your vindicator is overly expensive and should either be in a pair (too expensive for your points) or changed out for some oblits or havocs. The DP is ok because the night lords strangely have daemon princes (ie dhar'leth) or at least work with them. They also occasionally work with lesser daemons like furies so you might add some of those if you like(just make sure more squads have personal icons/icons to DS them onto).

The list looks quite good.
As you have some pts left, I'd add some more Termies.
Do not spend too many points on upgrades:
5 Termies w/ reaper autocannon, 2 power fists, IoGC.

wuestenfux wrote:The list looks quite good.
As you have some pts left, I'd add some more Termies.
Do not spend too many points on upgrades:
5 Termies w/ reaper autocannon, 2 power fists, IoGC.

You say not to spend too many points on upgrades and then have him take one of the most overcosted weapons in our entire army? You also have listed a terminator squad with absolutely no combi-weapons which is one of their best advantages over a regular csm squad. 5 termies can carry 5 combi-melta and those 5 combi-melta DSed in can wreck long range support vehicles to keep your rhinos as unmolested as possible while they drive up the field.

Personally I'd recommend splitting that squad into 2 squads of 3 and giving each 3 combi-melta and nothing else. They are designed to be suicide squads to take out key vehicles and then charge into CC to tie up any long range infantry support (ie devastators/psykers/etc). Since they are not supposed to live past a few turns the IoCG is not required and would only make it hurt worse when they died.

Well, I'm not really a fan of those suicide Termie squads.
They can get their job done, but eventually also not.

A larger Termie unit is a solid investment. With a reaper
autocannon, the unit can target light tanks from far while
approaching the enemy.

wuestenfux wrote:
They can get their job done, but eventually also not.

They will get the job done the majority of the time, which is all that matters to me and they do it cheaply.

wuestenfux wrote:
A larger Termie unit is a solid investment. With a reaper
autocannon, the unit can target light tanks from far while
approaching the enemy.

Are you really talking about footslogging termies? With DSing termicide you can get up close (preferably on a weaker side of the armor), and blast them with 3 melta shots for 105pts. How is that not a win?

I also fail to see how an expensive TL autocannon is worth it. If you want autocannons there are better places to get them, namely defilers, predators, and havocs. The terminators are meant to get up close and hurt things and to me that means combi-melta and fist weapons.

Well, a large Termie unit is a shock and awe unit;
say 10 Termies with either combi-weapons or tl auto cannons.
The enemy can hardly deal with it.

So met me get this straight.

Termicide, so its basically terms with combi meltas and fists? no champion?

and if I was to add a predator for a cheap anti-infantry/light armor, what weapon setup is recommended?

I was thinking about raptors and havocs, what weapons should they carry?

Termicide: 3 Termies that deepstrike, each armed with a combi melta & no further upgrades. If you have a few extra points at the end of list building consider a chain fist or an extra termie. Oh, and profit.

Predator: I'm not a fan of chaos preds but if you go with one the autocannon/HB sponsons is usually my preference. The problem I have with Predators is that when fighting against hordes throwing berzerkers at them is the "best" idea and if you need to kill armor It's a job that usually gets done by Obbles or termicide or both, so it's a bit superfluous in most CSM forces.

Raptors: Melta guns + Icon!

Havocs: Autocannons!

wuestenfux wrote:Well, a large Termie unit is a shock and awe unit;
say 10 Termies with either combi-weapons or tl auto cannons.
The enemy can hardly deal with it.

A large termie squad is a waste of points when compared with a similar amount of points in regular/cult troops or 3 smaller squads of termies with combi-weapons. 1 large squad can only shoot at one unit per turn, 3 can shoot at 3 different targets(same goes for assaulting). DSing a 10man squad increases your chances of landing on something other than open ground as well. For the same price as that one terminator you can buy 2 regular csm troopers, gaining an extra wound and an extra extra statline. The biggest reason for CSM to take terminators is to deliver large amounts of combi-weapons (usually melta) quickly via DS to multiple targets. To do that efficiently you take termicide squads.

What about defilers, are they worth their points? The battle cannon is very powerful, shaken/stunned are totally ignored and it counts as an MC in CC.

The Night Stalker wrote:What about defilers, are they worth their points? The battle cannon is very powerful, shaken/stunned are totally ignored and it counts as an MC in CC.

Defilers mainly suffer from being very large, being high priority targets, and poor front armor for their points. They can certainly dish out decent firepower while marching forward and then tear some things apart with their high strength attacks (although poor ws/I). If you do take them be sure to bring them in a pair.

My thoughts on terminators:
At 1750, I ran 2 x 10 terminators with a combination of weapons to see what was good. One of the 10 had a reaper autocannon, and heavy flamer, and 3 combi-meltas and 3 combi-flamers and 2 fists, and the other was nearly the same but with 2 heavy flamers. Generally I deep striked them, Wuestenfux, has pretty much got it right, 10 deepstriking termies is a shock n awe unit. But they do suck up a lot of points too, I took 2nd in that particular tournament of 23 people. Worst game I had (for my termies) I lost 6 in one unit and 3 in the other. I really like the autocannon, especially if I deepstriked on the side of vehicles. They are however an expensive unit, and if you put them in the wrong spot, you potentially got a chunk of your army not doing much.

Termicide:
Termicide, I've tried a litte, and played against it a lot. In my experience, I like small chosen squads in rhino's loaded with melta's and flamers better, they perform a little bit more reliably and I like the fact that if I can pull off a successful outflank, I can keep firing meltas each turn until my opponent deals with them. At my recent tournament, I went down to the SoCal Slaughter... (any tournament with lots of dakkadakka members, yakface, and everyone else... wow, tough competition) Anyhow, I had a 5 man chosen squad walk from one flank to the middle of my opponents deployment zone, blowing everything up... its was super cool. And the only reason I got a tie in that game. Leafblower is nasty and it got first turn on me. Termicide, sadly, once you blow the combi-meltas... if you haven't taken your prize, you don't get a second chance. If Halsfield has luck with it cool. Personally the decision to use termicide probably has a lot more to do with do you know what your opponents are likely to field than anything else, if everyone is running landraiders in your area... well of course, I might run 2 termicides, I think the days of landraiders have gone past though....


Defiler:
The defiler is interesting, I run one almost all the time (mostly because mines converted, magnetized, lots of bitz n stuff move and twist, the claws work etc....) Its good for a shock n awe unit. If your opponent fears battlecannon, it'll get killed quick, if not, you might get to play with it a bit longer. The battlecannon is a little inaccurate, there's plenty of mathhammer already done, avoid shooting vehicles, go after infantry. If your opponent spreads out (then he won't fear your battle cannon) then you have to do something interesting with the defiler to make it do something useful. If you model it right, it can get cover from behind a rhino (generally its 60% taller than the rhino, if you set up the legs exactly like its pictured on the box) Sometimes I'll run a rhino in front, and keep the defiler slightly obscured by a nearby building.

Sounds like, what you need to do, is play smaller games where the need for and the ability to field redunancy is reduced. And, experiment with different units and see what you like. When you are ready you'll know what you want for larger games.

Also, these days the game is troopcentric, so at 1500pts, you are strongly recommend to have 3 troops, 2000pts 3-4 troops and 2500 4-5 troops. Then you may want to invest in finding ways to protect your troops (rhinos, and/or fielding nurgle marines, tzeentch etc), and build up heavy support. A friend of mine fields a vindicator, I don't own one... I hate his vindi, its a pain, same with his predator, but once he started fielding obliterators(always a good choice) the real pain began.